I am posting this here so as to provide a discussion area on the issue of drm and vista. I was posting comments under a different topic but then was told to move this discussion and cross post to another topic. But that topic did not really fit the topic either and thought that this topic really deserves its own thread so as not to drown out other topics given the amount of comments on this subject.
For me, I am concerned that vista and drm is increasing costs of the pc and hurting innovation in the pc industry. I really would like to hear logical arguments and opinions on the subject whether they are for, or against, or come from a different perspective. I realize this subject is a very emotional issue for some and would appreciate if you would keep senseless flaming and personnel attacks out of this discussion as this does not serve or benefit anyone.
I am going to start, by leaving off with my last comment that I was told to cross post:
KwyjiboNL77,
Thanks, for the reply. It is good to hear from someone that wants to discuss this subject from a more logical standpoint.
I am not going to repeat what I already said relating to increase hardware costs but will repeat that ATI has said that it does increase costs. As you said, "ATI stated that they are going to pass on their cost to consumers, whereas they are not in a position to claim that is necessery". I am unsure what you mean by "they are not in a position to claim that is necessary" as you seem to saying that any company cant recoup costs. You also state "ATI has the choice of offering solutions without support for protected content playback. ATI chooses not to do that" ---- thus leaving future support for any non protected version os (ie:linux) suspect or at the very least more expensive.
You also state 'ATI could reduce their profit margin on each chip sold in order to accomodate costs involved with ensuring compatibility with the emerging HD market. ATI chooses not to do that and instead pass that cost on to its clients". This also means more cost to the pc. You also state "ATI chooses to blame MS/Vista for the rising price of their products, forgetting that the windows platform is ATI's main reason of existance". I agree that ms/vista is reason for rising price of their products. Additionally, I also agree that windows platform is main reason for ATI existance; however, the new requirements for drm at both the software and hardware level introduces a layer of complexity that means longer and more costly development time for pc hardware and software. The new complexity that drm and vista at both the hardware and software level negates the policy of the past leaving the potential of the pc market suspect --- if I were ATI --- I would be concerned about future.
You also state "the PC in its current state is all based on content. The current PC has evolved from a typewriter replacement to a machine that can handle complex 3D tasks, HD video playback, enormous storage needs, world wide connectivity etc. It has done so because of consumer demand". I agree with you and want to continue to see the pc to evolve rather than become stuck as a overpriced dvd player. When the pc first came out --- no one saw what it be able to do at present. The same holds true now --- no one knows where the pc might evolve to in future --- but the spec is now controlled by the content providers --- this may hinder its evolution in ways we cannot fully comprehend as one must get the approval of content owners for any change in the spec. This type of limitation did not exist in the past leaving future innovation in question.
You state "Can you explain to me exactly what the difference is with the current situation? If your hardware doesn't support protected HD media playback, then there is nothing for the DRM to protect in the first place so it will be a complete non-issue. Why would that require a different version of Vista?" . A none drm version of vista would remove all the drm stuff from the vista kernal --- drm adds unnecessary complexity to both the hardware and software and wastes computer resources and to me represents an engineering defect. A non drm version would also allow the adding of open source (none drm) hardware that is outside of requirements of content owners.
There are also other concerns that I have with the content providors controling the pc market as it is negatively (in some cases eliminating) effecting segments of pc software in addition to hardware even though it does not relate to drm (if you ask I can get into --- but trying to keep my response to you from being to long). For example, alternative virtualization technologies such as vmware face elimination from the market place because of the "potential" threat virtualization poses to drm protection. This is problem with content providors having to much control in the pc industry --- technologies are either eliminated or become so laced with limitations so as to hinder its usefulness because of "mere threat" to protected content even when protected content is not relavent to drm.
You also state "What I am trying to say is that some people want it all. They want HD, but they don't want to pay for it". Personnally, I dont know anyone that has not been paying for dvd's. All the people I know have loads of dvd's ---- my own dvd collection takes up a whole closet. The content providers could of released hd dvd's long ago if they were not so paranoid about all the drm protection. In my opinion, the protected content owners have already missed out on numerous marketing opportunities and potential increased revenues because of shear paranoia.
Please note I do not disagree with you at all relating to content owners having right to protect content; only believe there is an underlying issue here that is of far greater concern whether you believe in drm or not and wonder if there is any alternative which might be option--- maybe there is not --- but thought it be worth asking.
For me, I am concerned that vista and drm is increasing costs of the pc and hurting innovation in the pc industry. I really would like to hear logical arguments and opinions on the subject whether they are for, or against, or come from a different perspective. I realize this subject is a very emotional issue for some and would appreciate if you would keep senseless flaming and personnel attacks out of this discussion as this does not serve or benefit anyone.
I am going to start, by leaving off with my last comment that I was told to cross post:
KwyjiboNL77,
Thanks, for the reply. It is good to hear from someone that wants to discuss this subject from a more logical standpoint.
I am not going to repeat what I already said relating to increase hardware costs but will repeat that ATI has said that it does increase costs. As you said, "ATI stated that they are going to pass on their cost to consumers, whereas they are not in a position to claim that is necessery". I am unsure what you mean by "they are not in a position to claim that is necessary" as you seem to saying that any company cant recoup costs. You also state "ATI has the choice of offering solutions without support for protected content playback. ATI chooses not to do that" ---- thus leaving future support for any non protected version os (ie:linux) suspect or at the very least more expensive.
You also state 'ATI could reduce their profit margin on each chip sold in order to accomodate costs involved with ensuring compatibility with the emerging HD market. ATI chooses not to do that and instead pass that cost on to its clients". This also means more cost to the pc. You also state "ATI chooses to blame MS/Vista for the rising price of their products, forgetting that the windows platform is ATI's main reason of existance". I agree that ms/vista is reason for rising price of their products. Additionally, I also agree that windows platform is main reason for ATI existance; however, the new requirements for drm at both the software and hardware level introduces a layer of complexity that means longer and more costly development time for pc hardware and software. The new complexity that drm and vista at both the hardware and software level negates the policy of the past leaving the potential of the pc market suspect --- if I were ATI --- I would be concerned about future.
You also state "the PC in its current state is all based on content. The current PC has evolved from a typewriter replacement to a machine that can handle complex 3D tasks, HD video playback, enormous storage needs, world wide connectivity etc. It has done so because of consumer demand". I agree with you and want to continue to see the pc to evolve rather than become stuck as a overpriced dvd player. When the pc first came out --- no one saw what it be able to do at present. The same holds true now --- no one knows where the pc might evolve to in future --- but the spec is now controlled by the content providers --- this may hinder its evolution in ways we cannot fully comprehend as one must get the approval of content owners for any change in the spec. This type of limitation did not exist in the past leaving future innovation in question.
You state "Can you explain to me exactly what the difference is with the current situation? If your hardware doesn't support protected HD media playback, then there is nothing for the DRM to protect in the first place so it will be a complete non-issue. Why would that require a different version of Vista?" . A none drm version of vista would remove all the drm stuff from the vista kernal --- drm adds unnecessary complexity to both the hardware and software and wastes computer resources and to me represents an engineering defect. A non drm version would also allow the adding of open source (none drm) hardware that is outside of requirements of content owners.
There are also other concerns that I have with the content providors controling the pc market as it is negatively (in some cases eliminating) effecting segments of pc software in addition to hardware even though it does not relate to drm (if you ask I can get into --- but trying to keep my response to you from being to long). For example, alternative virtualization technologies such as vmware face elimination from the market place because of the "potential" threat virtualization poses to drm protection. This is problem with content providors having to much control in the pc industry --- technologies are either eliminated or become so laced with limitations so as to hinder its usefulness because of "mere threat" to protected content even when protected content is not relavent to drm.
You also state "What I am trying to say is that some people want it all. They want HD, but they don't want to pay for it". Personnally, I dont know anyone that has not been paying for dvd's. All the people I know have loads of dvd's ---- my own dvd collection takes up a whole closet. The content providers could of released hd dvd's long ago if they were not so paranoid about all the drm protection. In my opinion, the protected content owners have already missed out on numerous marketing opportunities and potential increased revenues because of shear paranoia.
Please note I do not disagree with you at all relating to content owners having right to protect content; only believe there is an underlying issue here that is of far greater concern whether you believe in drm or not and wonder if there is any alternative which might be option--- maybe there is not --- but thought it be worth asking.