this is from beyond3d:
<A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/Trilinear_Analysis.gif" target="_new">http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/Trilinear_Analysis.gif</A>
with texture compression trilinear filtering is faster with kyro than with bilinear with no texture compression
I am sure that anisotropic will be much much better !!!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 05:19 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<A HREF="http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/Trilinear_Analysis.gif" target="_new">http://www.beyond3d.com/previews/vividxs_kyroii/Trilinear_Analysis.gif</A>
with texture compression trilinear filtering is faster with kyro than with bilinear with no texture compression
I am sure that anisotropic will be much much better !!!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 05:19 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
it will be close to 60 fps with that game <i>(formula 1 at 1024x768x32)</i> with anisotropic 16 tap.
If it can get 120 fps at bilinear we must assume <i>(bandwidth will be freed to a level that anisotropic will not penalise kyro 2 )</i> with texture compression that it can get near 60fps !
not bad !!!
with texture compression we get better anisotropic quality (16 tap kyro vs 8 tap geforce) and better performance than geforce 2 gts...
at least I am sure that it will beat geforce 2 mx with anisotropic
😉
and we know that it's easy to enable texture compression with kyro 2 even with games that don't support it
whithout losing any quality ...
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 05:24 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
If it can get 120 fps at bilinear we must assume <i>(bandwidth will be freed to a level that anisotropic will not penalise kyro 2 )</i> with texture compression that it can get near 60fps !
not bad !!!
with texture compression we get better anisotropic quality (16 tap kyro vs 8 tap geforce) and better performance than geforce 2 gts...
at least I am sure that it will beat geforce 2 mx with anisotropic
😉
and we know that it's easy to enable texture compression with kyro 2 even with games that don't support it
whithout losing any quality ...
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 05:24 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
I didn't noticed this before on the ace's hardware kyro 2 review :
<font color=red><i>Trilinear and Anisotrophic Filtering
As most video cards now handle trilinear filtering very well, players are used to it and demand it. Anisotrophic filtering is more for the hardcore quality freaks: beautiful anisotrophic filtering (12-16 pass) lowers performance significantly, though 8 pass anisotrophic filtering on the Geforce cards is almost as fast as trilinear filtering, but hardly provides better image quality. </font color=red></i>
And we know that the best trilinear performer is kyro 2 <i>(at least on that review with formula 1 )</i>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 06:03 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<font color=red><i>Trilinear and Anisotrophic Filtering
As most video cards now handle trilinear filtering very well, players are used to it and demand it. Anisotrophic filtering is more for the hardcore quality freaks: beautiful anisotrophic filtering (12-16 pass) lowers performance significantly, though 8 pass anisotrophic filtering on the Geforce cards is almost as fast as trilinear filtering, but hardly provides better image quality. </font color=red></i>
And we know that the best trilinear performer is kyro 2 <i>(at least on that review with formula 1 )</i>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/28/01 06:03 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
Go look at this beautifull quake 3 level optimized for tile based cards
<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/013772.html#19" target="_new">http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/013772.html#19</A>
<A HREF="http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/013772.html#19" target="_new">http://www.quake3world.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/013772.html#19</A>
noko
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Didn't look like Anisotropic filtering lowered the Radeons performance one bit. Plus it is exactly what is said when used <b>beautiful</b>. On the Kyro2 it does indeed lower performance significantly. On the Radeon when used it only reduces the frame rate a few FPS but the image quality is awesome with it. From my perspective it is worth its weight in gold, in which on the Kyro2 it is not usable. Now the Radeon can do up to 128x Anisotropic filtering with virtually no frame lost. The hardware supports it.
well geforce 2 only supports 8 tap anisotropic filtering this is not very different from trilinear filtering (regarding quality), Radeon will get drops also when radeon is fillrate rate limited not when it's bandwidth limited even with 16 tap anisotropic ...
and radeon have to much fill rate in hand (3 TMU, 4 pipelines)
these radeon and geforce are so wastefull that when the bandwidth is limited thus giving them problems they have too much fill rate in hand ...
that is why they see no drop ...
besides geforce 8 tap is not that great (comparing with trilinear) !
So :
in trilinear kyro beats the competition .
in anisotropic filtering with some tweaks we could have 16 tap anisotropic with the same performance as geforce 2 gts 8 tap anisotropic .
What we can tweak to achieve better anisotropic fps with kyro?
1º forcing texture compression
2º use 16 bits for less bandwidth stress with kyro
(these 16 bits is close to geforce 32 bits quality)
and radeon have to much fill rate in hand (3 TMU, 4 pipelines)
these radeon and geforce are so wastefull that when the bandwidth is limited thus giving them problems they have too much fill rate in hand ...
that is why they see no drop ...
besides geforce 8 tap is not that great (comparing with trilinear) !
So :
in trilinear kyro beats the competition .
in anisotropic filtering with some tweaks we could have 16 tap anisotropic with the same performance as geforce 2 gts 8 tap anisotropic .
What we can tweak to achieve better anisotropic fps with kyro?
1º forcing texture compression
2º use 16 bits for less bandwidth stress with kyro
(these 16 bits is close to geforce 32 bits quality)
If you think that anisotropic is that killer feature that you must have then even geforce 2 loses against radeon...
besides having a week implementation of anisotropic (8 tap) not much diferent from trilinear, geforce performes worse than radeon.
But I think that FSAA is more important for me nevertheless
😉
besides having a week implementation of anisotropic (8 tap) not much diferent from trilinear, geforce performes worse than radeon.
But I think that FSAA is more important for me nevertheless
😉
noko
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Its not a killer feature but very nice to have. Since you did your post at Ace's hardware hopefully they will check out the Kyro2 filtering more thoroughly and hopefully find a way to speed it up. Time to move on to something else as in the video capability of the Kyro2, surpposenly you can get a card with TV out. Do you know what video chip they are using? Also could you enlighten us on the features of the Kyro2 that enhances DVD playback? Oh yes the Radean only has two pixel pipelines not four which each can do up to 3 textures per pass. There are a number of features in that pipeline besides 3 texture ability.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 04/28/01 10:07 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 04/28/01 10:07 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
There is no reason to hype on the good. Sometimes you can have a huge list of small good things but have one bad aspect of a design that can ruin the entire chip. No one is saying that the kyro II sucks. The kyro is just a mid ranged card that is at the top of the mid range list right now. Also, for the first time, this mid ranger can beat the best of the best in some benchmarks. Sure this is great but when the kyro II sucks it sucks hard. I won't make any final judgment on this card until I see the final board design with the official release drivers. If the kyro continues to perform poorly in some of the benchmarks that it does then I wouldn't buy it.
Last month, when the kyro II was first previewed, we all got hyped about the price/performance. Since then, the release has been pushed back a month and we are now seeing areas where the kyro fails to perform at a decent rate in certain tests. Nvidia is pushing down its prices for the gts/pro cards and I suspect ati will fallow in this price cut trend. This will diminish the price/performance ratio that the kyro II had last month. Even the ultra's will be coming down in price.
Unless the kyroII comes in at a lower price then the $150 suggested retail price it won't be able to have the appeal that it could have. Remember, the kyroII has a few things going against it:
1. Relatively new brand name to get people to know (will have to fight back the radeon/geforce market strong hold let alone the performance of those chips)
2. New technology is always scrutinized. Any flaw in the design of the chip will be harshly scrutinized by the industry.
The card isn't even out yet and problems with it are already being found. We've all seen the arguments of the life of a 3d card and the price range. Now that the kyro II is being attacked by possibly having a shorter life then it should and it's intended market already being filled by equal or better performing cards I question the impact it will actually have besides being a card that debus tile rendering. If STM was, smart they would have had two cards to market at mid range and high performing cards. Their motto not to overprice more than what is needed is nice but won't have too much of an effect if they don't market to the entire market for game cards.
We’ve already seen that the chip can’t be run any faster than it can now so we won’t see an ‘ultra’ version. Looks like we’d have to wait and see if kyro III can perform at the high end. It is sad, but 90% of the people out there only care about the highest frame rate. That is why nvidia has the market share they do. The kyro II is nice but when it comes down to it people will pat STM on the back and say good job but then turn around and by a geforce2 or radeon instead.
Last month, when the kyro II was first previewed, we all got hyped about the price/performance. Since then, the release has been pushed back a month and we are now seeing areas where the kyro fails to perform at a decent rate in certain tests. Nvidia is pushing down its prices for the gts/pro cards and I suspect ati will fallow in this price cut trend. This will diminish the price/performance ratio that the kyro II had last month. Even the ultra's will be coming down in price.
Unless the kyroII comes in at a lower price then the $150 suggested retail price it won't be able to have the appeal that it could have. Remember, the kyroII has a few things going against it:
1. Relatively new brand name to get people to know (will have to fight back the radeon/geforce market strong hold let alone the performance of those chips)
2. New technology is always scrutinized. Any flaw in the design of the chip will be harshly scrutinized by the industry.
The card isn't even out yet and problems with it are already being found. We've all seen the arguments of the life of a 3d card and the price range. Now that the kyro II is being attacked by possibly having a shorter life then it should and it's intended market already being filled by equal or better performing cards I question the impact it will actually have besides being a card that debus tile rendering. If STM was, smart they would have had two cards to market at mid range and high performing cards. Their motto not to overprice more than what is needed is nice but won't have too much of an effect if they don't market to the entire market for game cards.
We’ve already seen that the chip can’t be run any faster than it can now so we won’t see an ‘ultra’ version. Looks like we’d have to wait and see if kyro III can perform at the high end. It is sad, but 90% of the people out there only care about the highest frame rate. That is why nvidia has the market share they do. The kyro II is nice but when it comes down to it people will pat STM on the back and say good job but then turn around and by a geforce2 or radeon instead.
<font color=red>Last month, when the kyro II was first previewed, we all got hyped about the price/performance. Since then, the release has been pushed back a month and we are now seeing areas where the kyro fails to perform at a decent rate in certain tests</font color=red>
first it was not pushed back a month !
they from the beginning said end of april earlier of may.
second kyro in certain test is competing against geforce 2 gts anisotropic 8 tap against 16 tap kyro 2 that is not fair !
with trilinear (almoust the same quality of anisotropic 8 tap) geforce 2 gts get beaten badly by kyro 2 (more 50% fps) how can this be bad ?
😉
yap in anisotropic the best performer is radeon ... period !!!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 05:45 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
first it was not pushed back a month !
they from the beginning said end of april earlier of may.
second kyro in certain test is competing against geforce 2 gts anisotropic 8 tap against 16 tap kyro 2 that is not fair !
with trilinear (almoust the same quality of anisotropic 8 tap) geforce 2 gts get beaten badly by kyro 2 (more 50% fps) how can this be bad ?
😉
yap in anisotropic the best performer is radeon ... period !!!
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 05:45 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
Directx flexible vertex format support; opengl and direct3d blend modes, 128 bit GUI acelerator with 3 operand ROP's, hardware clipping, colour expansion, transparent BitBLT and strech BitBLI
AGP 2.0 bus master with DMA bus mastering for minimum CPU load and AGP 1x, 2X and 4X support with SBA for host-based textures
128-bit SDRAM interface providing single memory for frame buffer, video and texture memory integrated 300 MHZ paletter DAC and clock synthesiser giving 2048x1536 maximum
resolution:1920 x 1440 true colour at 85hz, and 2.8 GB/sec bandwidth
Video playblack and mpeg2 decode aceleration with motion compensation
4:2:0 overlay support;X,Y interpolated scaling and colour keying.
This was from Videologic vivid XS (kyro 2 )
There are slight differences with Hercules 4500, like agp 4X instead of AGP 2X (there were issues with Hercules boards with some motherboard so they put a maximum of AGP 2X insuring 100% compatibility with those motherboards, from Ali I think )
Nevertheless is more than enough (agp 2X) cause there are many reviews out there (tomshardware is one of them) that reviewed kyro 2 in PCI mode
Look at this:
<A HREF="http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/kyroII-10.html" target="_new">http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/kyroII-10.html</A>
<i><font color=red>see the second screen from the top:
-display-subsystem device id:10h PCI (3) (AGP card is running in PCI mode AGP drivers may ...</i></font color=red>
It is a good point on kyro for those who have good systems without agp (motherboards with intregrated graphics), in PCI mode kyro 2 will not lose too much performance, a PCI card is already confirmed , they will make a kyro 2 PCI !
nevertheless if those reviews were with AGP enabled then we should get a little bit more performance for kyro (I am sure of it)
Kyro II video capability’s are similar with geforce 2, but radeon still beat kyro/geforce video features, though it’s enough for most of us (good quality dvd playback without losing frames even with low end cpu)
I will try to find more about the tv out maybe videologic implementation is different from Hercules I don’t know I will try to find out...
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:02 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
AGP 2.0 bus master with DMA bus mastering for minimum CPU load and AGP 1x, 2X and 4X support with SBA for host-based textures
128-bit SDRAM interface providing single memory for frame buffer, video and texture memory integrated 300 MHZ paletter DAC and clock synthesiser giving 2048x1536 maximum
resolution:1920 x 1440 true colour at 85hz, and 2.8 GB/sec bandwidth
Video playblack and mpeg2 decode aceleration with motion compensation
4:2:0 overlay support;X,Y interpolated scaling and colour keying.
This was from Videologic vivid XS (kyro 2 )
There are slight differences with Hercules 4500, like agp 4X instead of AGP 2X (there were issues with Hercules boards with some motherboard so they put a maximum of AGP 2X insuring 100% compatibility with those motherboards, from Ali I think )
Nevertheless is more than enough (agp 2X) cause there are many reviews out there (tomshardware is one of them) that reviewed kyro 2 in PCI mode
Look at this:
<A HREF="http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/kyroII-10.html" target="_new">http://www4.tomshardware.com/graphic/01q2/010425/kyroII-10.html</A>
<i><font color=red>see the second screen from the top:
-display-subsystem device id:10h PCI (3) (AGP card is running in PCI mode AGP drivers may ...</i></font color=red>
It is a good point on kyro for those who have good systems without agp (motherboards with intregrated graphics), in PCI mode kyro 2 will not lose too much performance, a PCI card is already confirmed , they will make a kyro 2 PCI !
nevertheless if those reviews were with AGP enabled then we should get a little bit more performance for kyro (I am sure of it)
Kyro II video capability’s are similar with geforce 2, but radeon still beat kyro/geforce video features, though it’s enough for most of us (good quality dvd playback without losing frames even with low end cpu)
I will try to find more about the tv out maybe videologic implementation is different from Hercules I don’t know I will try to find out...
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:02 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
look at this:
<A HREF="http://www.mitrax.de/artikel/kyrodriver/d3d.htm" target="_new">http://www.mitrax.de/artikel/kyrodriver/d3d.htm</A>
system test:
Videologic Vivid!(KYRO I) overclocked to 120 MHz
Pentium III 868 MHz
124 MHz FSB
Asus P3B-F (BX)
256 MB RAM
I know it is in german..
but look at the performance gain with the most recent drivers !
with kyro 2 we should get 46% more performance with these pentium III at 868
120 X 1.46 = 175,2
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:31 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
<A HREF="http://www.mitrax.de/artikel/kyrodriver/d3d.htm" target="_new">http://www.mitrax.de/artikel/kyrodriver/d3d.htm</A>
system test:
Videologic Vivid!(KYRO I) overclocked to 120 MHz
Pentium III 868 MHz
124 MHz FSB
Asus P3B-F (BX)
256 MB RAM
I know it is in german..
but look at the performance gain with the most recent drivers !
with kyro 2 we should get 46% more performance with these pentium III at 868
120 X 1.46 = 175,2
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:31 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
quake 3 screenshot:
16 bit geforce 2 left vs 16 bit kyro
<A HREF="http://www.3dconcept.ch/reviews/vivid/q3a_gfvskyrosmall.jpg" target="_new">http://www.3dconcept.ch/reviews/vivid/q3a_gfvskyrosmall.jpg</A>
16 bit geforce 2 left vs 16 bit kyro
<A HREF="http://www.3dconcept.ch/reviews/vivid/q3a_gfvskyrosmall.jpg" target="_new">http://www.3dconcept.ch/reviews/vivid/q3a_gfvskyrosmall.jpg</A>
HolyGrenade
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Could you show some links showing the kyro II with trilinear enabled scoreing 50% higher than the GTS with trilinear?
<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
<font color=red>"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"</font color=red>
noko
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The quality of the Kyro 16bit is very impressive while the Radeon Quality is the worst. Still there is virtually no speed up in 16bit with the Kyro or the Radeon while the GF2s take off in 16bit. Only reason to use 16bit is if the game only supports it. Now if you have a Radeon using 16 bit that means the quality of the image as compared to a Kyro or GF lines is not as good. Chuck one up for the Kyro and the GFs.
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 04/29/01 04:51 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by noko on 04/29/01 04:51 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
noko kyro is better at 16bit than geforce 2 at 16bit, much better!
I don't know much about radeon 16bit quality, but it will be close to geforce 2 I think...
we could use this great 16 bit quality of kyro for better 16 tap anisotropic performance
😉
I don't know much about radeon 16bit quality, but it will be close to geforce 2 I think...
we could use this great 16 bit quality of kyro for better 16 tap anisotropic performance
😉
Holygrenade on aceshardware:
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/articles/reviews/GF3vsK2/F1A1333Filtering.gif" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/articles/reviews/GF3vsK2/F1A1333Filtering.gif</A>
with enviromental bump mapping kyro don't even droop any fps (remember that geforce 2 don't have these feature)
look at the results:
Formula 1 Grand Prix from Eidos
<font color=red>1024x768x32</font color=red>
<i>trilinear with no env. Bump map</i>
geforce 2 gts - 62 fps vs kyro 2 - 89 fps
<i>trilinear</i>
geforce 2 GTS 57 fps vs Kyro 2 - 88 fps
these numbers are close aproximations looking at the graphics .
so:
60 X 1.50 = 90 so we have 50% more performance at trilinear ...
<A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/articles/reviews/GF3vsK2/F1A1333Filtering.gif" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/articles/reviews/GF3vsK2/F1A1333Filtering.gif</A>
with enviromental bump mapping kyro don't even droop any fps (remember that geforce 2 don't have these feature)
look at the results:
Formula 1 Grand Prix from Eidos
<font color=red>1024x768x32</font color=red>
<i>trilinear with no env. Bump map</i>
geforce 2 gts - 62 fps vs kyro 2 - 89 fps
<i>trilinear</i>
geforce 2 GTS 57 fps vs Kyro 2 - 88 fps
these numbers are close aproximations looking at the graphics .
so:
60 X 1.50 = 90 so we have 50% more performance at trilinear ...
noko
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Just remember having more FPS doesn't always equate to better. For example would something running a benchmark at 200FPS be better than the Kyro2 if the image had gross color mismatches and incomplete rendering while the Kyro2 did it at 45FPS consistent but perfectly rendered? The answer is no! The Kyro2 would be better in that case even with a much lower FPS. Plus if the frame rate is sufficient to begin with then any additional framerate is meaningless especially if it is sacraficing quality. the above link you posted shows that the Radeon has superior filtering technology with a minimal amount of performance lost.
yap!
I prefer better quality with 25 fps minimal fps
if a game don't drop bellow 25 fps that is good or me!
what is the use to have 200 fps if my monitor don't deliver more than 100 hz ?
😉<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:35 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
I prefer better quality with 25 fps minimal fps
if a game don't drop bellow 25 fps that is good or me!
what is the use to have 200 fps if my monitor don't deliver more than 100 hz ?
😉<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by powervr2 on 04/29/01 06:35 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
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