News Linux or Landfill? End of Windows 10 Leaves PC Charities with Tough Choice

[DS426]

Non-profits should have went with Linux in the first place. 😛

 

[DS426]

You should consider ChromeOS Flex as well, a bit more walled garden as it is on the chromebook eco system, but that in my mind makes it more bullet proof than linux as well as user friendly. Locked down for that audience I think is a good thing and Chrome OS handles most demands, especially for the non tech savy.

I have put it on ancient hardware and was surprised how responsive and usable it was (Circa 2012 laptop Celeron).

Agreed -- should at least be something to consider. This one is less obvious to most.

 

[bit_user]

I've run Linux continuously for 25 years, now (first tried it about 30 years ago). Yet, I've always kept a Windows machine around. At first it was due to Windows superior media playback capabilities. Now, Linux' media playback is vastly improved. Even when connecting to commercial streaming services, I've had no problem with media playback via the Chromium browser (same foundation as Chrome, but without some of the Google-specific add-ins).

Then, when my employer still allowed us to connect our personal machines to their VPN, in order to work from home, I had another reason to keep Windows. However, I have since been issued a corporate laptop and they no longer allow us to connect from anything else.

I think Win 10 is the end of the road, for me. After that, I'll be 100% Linux.

BTW, here are some other options:

• FreeBSD / Dragonfly BSD - weaker hardware support than Linux, but some claim superior security. Native ZFS implementation, if you're so inclined.
• Haiku OS - inspired by BeOS.
• Redox - written from scratch using the Rust language.
• ReactOS - binary-compatible open source Windows clone.

I used to be interested in ReactOS, but it seemed to be making very slow progress, for quite a while, and might still be incredibly rough. It's also worth noting that I think it's now being developed primarily in Russia.

For most people, you'd probably have much better results using Linux + WINE (which lets you run Windows programs on Linux). Even games run quite well in WINE. I believe that's how most games are running on Steam Deck.

 

[bit_user]

I have tried many distros and my go to distro is Ubuntu LTS as it is extremely stable.

But, they dropped their support window from 5 years to just over 2 years. That's long enough to make it to the next LTS release, but still disappointing.

 

[stonecarver]

Non-profits that refurbish PCs and give them to the needy have a dilemma when it comes to Windows 11-ineligible computers. Should they give clients an insecure Windows 10 OS, turn to Linux or throw perfectly-good computers away?

Being as Microsoft officially says reluctantly you can use windows on unsupported hardware " CPU's " why not give people buying from charity's a choice at checkout. Windows 11 with a fully printed out copy direct from Microsoft included with sale of the out dated unsupported computer stating the facts it will work but in the future Microsoft may revoke usability fully or partially at there discretion.

It's already a used end of life PC anyways and having Windows 11 on an unsupported CPU just long enough for the next round of " supported CPU's " to hit the used market and by than it will be time for another used PC anyways.

People who are in need of these refurbished used computer are on locked incomes and where the cost of a new PC is 2 months of there whole income.

Just really stop and think about that, someone already scrapping by with a $ 1000 a month income.
Some after paying bills might only have $150 to live on.

$ 150 divided by 30 days = $5.00 a day to lavishly spend.

I help a lot of seniors who like mentioned are in that $ spot and it is what is it is, and only know Windows.

I also stand behind Linux just as well but hands on working with these people the reality is they need Windows or I would pull my hair out being tech support.

At the very basic last I tried even Amazon prime video will not function on Linux. It could have been the browser Opera + Linux IDK.

I say give a choice with a disclaimer about Windows 11 on unsupported hardware and a choice to just bypass using Windows 11 and buy it with Linux.

 

[bit_user]

At the very basic last I tried even Amazon prime video will not function on Linux. It could have been the browser Opera + Linux IDK.

Did you try the Chromium browser? I've found it to work with other commercial streaming services. There's a plugin called widevine that's used for decrypting DRM-protected content and gets installed by default, on Ubuntu.

 

[stonecarver]

Did you try the Chromium browser?

Actually no and I will fully admit I'm a weekend driver on Linux but I do know I'm 1000% more computer savvy than the average senior who would get Linux and just be stuck. But even know I do like Linux I get to the point . Okay had enough of that and KVM back to Windows

I will give Chromium a try. I love to learn and it's not my way or hit the highway thinking with me.

 

[stuff and nonesense]

I’m new to Linux. If a program is in the distribution’s repository software is easy. The hard part comes with programs that aren’t. The installation of these needs to be standardised and streamlined.

From the windows side a simple self executing file or a MSI file makes installation incredibly simple.

The Linux interface is straightforward, learning to use it is not a hard learning curve. Finding the ‘right’ program is as simple as using windows 7 (kubuntu) for the first time. It takes a little effort but it’s not hard.
The install found all the drivers, installed them and my stripped out pc ran fine. I installed steam and the Nvidia blob no problems and the PC is stable.

Harder was introducing a new hard drive, the pc has a boot NVMe and 4TB spinning rust. The spinning rust is shared and accessible from the windows PC, (easy data backup).
So I put a drive in, the mount point was messed up and the drive ceased to be accessible from the share. I hunted, scoured the internet and 2 minutes later I was pointed to Fstab. Linux presents too many text editors, vi / vim(?) is horrendous. Kate is lovely and so is the text editor. Mount point fixed I could then access the shared drive.

Windows scores by abstracting the hardware better. If I add a drive it doesn’t displace the existing drive letter/reference. Having to alter config files to recover a deliberate setting while not difficult would have put me off in the past. I’m using the Linux box to learn how to use Linux and this was a good learning experience.

Steam has made games much easier to access. Proton is incredible. In the past when I have looked at Linux setting up WINE for everything was frustrating. Steam/Proton.. 3 clicks.
I use Libre office and GIMP on windows so there is no learning curve moving to Linux. That they are in the repository is brilliant.

The one thing I have been unable to get working, Soundblaster Z analogue audio. For whatever reason it refuses to work. This is over years. The card is in the windows box so it’s not going anywhere for now. I hunted and found ‘drivers’ and config instructions that people swore/claimed worked. No luck. I pointed my friendly Linux guru to the pages and gave him access to my machine over the web. The guru was in Chicago, I’m in the UK, he looked in and verified my setup..

The command line is no more daunting than DOS, just different words for functions. I’m sure I’ll get stuck from time to time but nothing insurmountable.

 

[redboy66]

A few years ago, 7 or more, I can't remember, I did an experiment.
I repaired the PC of a family acquaintance, none of them geeks.
I replaced their Windows 7 with Zorin or another similar distro, just put the windows start icon in place of the original, and installed the obvious software, Chrome, Libre office, etc, nothing else.
And I told them it was a new version.
It took them 3 months to realise that it wasn't Windows...
That's the reality of the common user.

 

[mitch074]

I've run Linux continuously for 25 years, now (first tried it about 30 years ago). Yet, I've always kept a Windows machine around. At first it was due to Windows superior media playback capabilities. Now, Linux' media playback is vastly improved. Even when connecting to commercial streaming services, I've had no problem with media playback via the Chromium browser (same foundation as Chrome, but without some of the Google-specific add-ins).

Then, when my employer still allowed us to connect our personal machines to their VPN, in order to work from home, I had another reason to keep Windows. However, I have since been issued a corporate laptop and they no longer allow us to connect from anything else.

I think Win 10 is the end of the road, for me. After that, I'll be 100% Linux.

BTW, here are some other options:

• FreeBSD / Dragonfly BSD - weaker hardware support than Linux, but some claim superior security. Native ZFS implementation, if you're so inclined.
• Haiku OS - inspired by BeOS.
• Redox - written from scratch using the Rust language.
• ReactOS - binary-compatible open source Windows clone.

I used to be interested in ReactOS, but it seemed to be making very slow progress, for quite a while, and might still be incredibly rough. It's also worth noting that I think it's now being developed primarily in Russia.

For most people, you'd probably have much better results using Linux + WINE (which lets you run Windows programs on Linux). Even games run quite well in WINE. I believe that's how most games are running on Steam Deck.

Proton is used by Valve to run Windows on Steam for Linux and SteamOS. It is a fork of Wine and includes a mostly own -developed DX to Vulkan translator called DXVK for Proton.
Changes to proton are open to be backported to Wine (and sometimes are).

 

[stonecarver]

This one is a head scratchers where " Windows 11 LTSC " does not have any restrictions with the unsupported CPU list that are on Home or Pro versions of Windows 11.



But we as consumers can't use long term it being as were not volume license customers. But you can try it out for 90 day if you go get it from Microsoft.

So all those PC going to the recyclers is not justified.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrM3xzzgawQ

 

[mitch074]

Actually no and I will fully admit I'm a weekend driver on Linux but I do know I'm 1000% more computer savvy than the average senior who would get Linux and just be stuck. But even know I do like Linux I get to the point . Okay had enough of that and KVM back to Windows

I will give Chromium a try. I love to learn and it's not my way or hit the highway thinking with me.

I installed Ubuntu on a few senior's machines back when they got ripped off by Vista. They called me a few times at the beginning to learn what this or that icon did, and once every 2 years I did a dist-upgrade, most often through remote desktop.
And that was it.

 

[mitch074]

This one is a head scratchers where " Windows 11 LTSC " does not have any restrictions with the unsupported CPU list that are on Home or Pro versions of Windows 11.



But we as consumers can't use long term it being as were not volume license customers. But you can try it out for 90 day if you go get it from Microsoft.

So all those PC going to the recyclers is not justified.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrM3xzzgawQ

If it's anything like Tiny11, then they merely disabled the bits for checking TPM and CPU version at boot.
This means that it could run and install 24h2 on Haswell and Zen.

 

[USAFRet]

If it's anything like Tiny11, then they merely disabled the bits for checking TPM and CPU version at boot.
This means that it could run and install 24h2 on Haswell and Zen.

Tiny11 also turned off a LOT of things people need, like AV.

 

[stonecarver]

If it's anything like Tiny11, then they merely disabled the bits for checking TPM and CPU version at boot.
This means that it could run and install 24h2 on Haswell and Zen.

This version of Windows 11 LTSC is from Microsoft Officially. No monkey business it's from them.

No bypass no tricks just install.

 

[USAFRet]

This version of Windows 11 LTSC is from Microsoft Officially. No monkey business it's from them.

No bypass no tricks just install.

Except, as noted above, not available to a regular user.
Especially a not-clued up user.

 

[stonecarver]

Except, as noted above, not available to a regular user.
Especially a not-clued up user.

Thank you that is a valid point.

So is the fake restrictions put on the unsupported CPU lists that Microsoft clearly shows is smoke and mirrors with this Windows 11 LTSC.

 

[USAFRet]

Thank you that is a valid point.

So is the fake restrictions put on the unsupported CPU lists that Microsoft clearly shows is smoke and mirrors with this Windows 11 LTSC.

Win 11 is generally available for 8th Gen Intel and equivalent AMD.
Currently, almost 8 years old.

Not defending MS, but they had been pushing for that TPM thing for years before that.
The OEMs blew them off.

People in here are FAR more invested in what OS they are using.
The vast majority of people buy a PC off the rack, and use whatever "OS" it comes with. Often, they have ZERO clue what an OS actually is.

 

[stonecarver]

The vast majority of people buy a PC off the rack, and use whatever "OS" it comes with. Often, they have ZERO clue what an OS actually is.

I agree a valid point again. But this thread is about recycled PC's not about off the shelf new systems.

Are we saying here at Tom's your not privileged enough to use Windows 11 if you don't meet our standards of new parts where Microsoft clearly says will still work.

Because if Microsoft says you can use unsupported CPU's officially and Windows 11 LTSC clearly proves it from Microsoft itself than it's Tom's itself that keeps saying you can't do it.

There only choice is go use Linux?



There are extremally valid points everywhere on this subject and were supposed to be the best of the best here on Tom's with advice.

 

[bit_user]

From the windows side a simple self executing file or a MSI file makes installation incredibly simple.

The Linux equivalents are .rpm and .deb files. Unfortunately, due to variations between different RPM-based distros (not sure about Debian ones), you typically need ones that were actually build for your distro. Even .debs are somewhat specific to the distro version. Try to install one that's too new and it'll have dependencies on package versions not available to you.

Here's a big difference between Windows and Linux: in the Linux world, most packages get their dependencies through the distro. In Windows, most packages ship with their dependencies. Where this makes a big difference is in security updates. On Windows, every piece of software you have that uses a vulnerable component must be updated. On Linux, you just update the one vulnerable component and everything on your entire system is fixed.

The big exception to this is when you're using container-based packaging, on Linux. Snaps and FlatPacks are two popular examples of this. People like them because they're easy and self-contained, but that's also their Achilles heel.

Linux presents too many text editors, vi / vim(?) is horrendous.

You're under the mistaken impression that an editor is only good if it's like the other text editors you've used before. All text editors have learning curves. You're just up one learning curve and at the bottom of another.

Mount point fixed I could then access the shared drive.

A lot of file browsers will show you unmounted volumes, which you then click on and can access. Yes, if you want to share them, you need a more permanent solution, which is fstab. I believe some distros also provide a GUI for updating fstab, although I always edit by hand.

Windows scores by abstracting the hardware better. If I add a drive it doesn’t displace the existing drive letter/reference.

The Linux approach is more flexible. Yes, if you mount it over something you didn't want to obscure, that's a way to create headaches for yourself.

If you're messing about with fixed mount points, I think it's a reasonable assumption that you know how they work.

 

[thestryker]

The right solution to this issue would be for Microsoft to remove the arbitrary CPU requirements. That being said so long as the system has TPM support (built in or module) I don't see how installing Windows 11 on something with an unsupported CPU is any worse than installing Windows 10 and it's likely a better choice.

Linux is a good choice if you know what the people want to use and it will work for that easily, but as a general shift seems bad for charity type situation unless they're offering classes.

 

[USAFRet]

I agree a valid point again. But this thread is about recycled PC's not about off the shelf new systems.

Are we saying here at Tom's your not privileged enough to use Windows 11 if you don't meet our standards of new parts where Microsoft clearly says will still work.

Because if Microsoft says you can use unsupported CPU's officially and Windows 11 LTSC clearly proves it from Microsoft itself than it's Tom's itself that keeps saying you can't do it.

There only choice is go use Linux?



There are extremally valid points everywhere on this subject and were supposed to be the best of the best here on Tom's with advice.

Right.

I have a Win 10 system here that will continue to be Win 10.
But I, as well as you, know what we're doing.

LTSC is not the same as Home or Pro. There are other differences beyond just the CPU.

But in relation to the customer base from the article....fully supported and upgraded Linux, rather than unsupported Win 10.
Running that unsupported OS brings into play Aunt Mary's idiot nephew. Who can "fix it".
We've seen THAT multiple times before.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

Over a decade ago, my daughter and friend were staying with us for the summer.

I gave her one of my spare laptops to use.
Ubuntu.
For basic browsing, etc, they never knew the difference.

Yup and now you can make Ubuntu look like macOS with a dock on the bottom. What I really do like about Ubuntu most and I was a huge fan of openSUSE in 2010 and then switched to Linux Mint is that Ubuntu doesn't seem to break as easily as the other Linux distros. I am fluent when it comes to Windows but whenever something wrong happened in Linux, I hit the web for answers. I rarely ever do that with Ubuntu. The only time I hit the web for Ubuntu is when i'm trying to add a new feature and don't know how.

 

[thestryker]

It's the exact same decision as when every prior version of Windows exited support and the subsequent version increased the minimum system requirements

This is incorrect. The Microsoft provided install packages will flat out prevent you from installing Windows 11 without workarounds if you have an "unsupported" CPU. This never happened in the past so long as you met the DRAM/storage requirements (and sometimes the former wasn't even a barrier).

The unsupported one that I have going for my kids is a Ryzen7 1700 with 32gb or RAM and 4tb of M.2 SSD storage. It runs W11 perfectly, except that it is an absolute pain to keep updated (and I had to do a reinstall to 24H2 when I realized that it was stuck on 21H2 and had stopped receiving security updates).

This is likely a Windows issue not an unsupported hardware on Win 11 issue. My fully supported Win 10 box was on either 1809 or 21H2 and would not pull major updates at all so I had to do a manual update via install media. This allowed me to get updated to 22H2 without a reinstall.

 

[stonecarver]

USAFRet​

I thank your were having a civil conversation with valid points.