Listen up! What you should know about VIA.

Guest · May 8, 2001

This information is primarily for newbies who may be considering the purchase of an AMD/VIA platform. The information herein covers but is not limited to the Apollo Pro 133/133A, Apollo Pro 266, KX133/KT133/KT133A and PM133/KM133 chipsets. This information was written only to inform those unknowing individuals of potential pitfalls, performance issues and incompatibility problems concerning VIA chipset motherboards. I encourage newbies and seasoned geeks alike to read all the information as it is both informative and entertaining. Ok, enough. Lets get ready for a wild journey through the bizarre & buggy world of VIA!

First I would like to start off with a few excerpts from VIA’s own FAQ.

Q. Should I install the 4-in-1 drivers?
VIA - All VIA chipset users should install the 4-in-1 drivers to improve performance, fix issues, and minimize any incompatibilities .

Notice that VIA uses the term “minimize incompatibilities” and not eliminate or remove incompatibilities. This is important because we will now delve into the details of some of those incompatibilities which were not “minimized” by the 4-in-1 drivers

Q. My Apollo Pro133A based motherboard with the VT82C686B Southbridge is having stability problems in Windows 2000, especially when transferring large files. How can I cure this?
VIA - At this time, we suggest you uninstall the VIA IDE Busmaster for WindowsÒ 2000 that is contained in the 4-in-1 driver.

Ok. Now wait a minute. In the first answer VIA tells you that you should install the 4-in-1 drivers to “minimize incompatibilities.” Now VIA does a U-turn and is telling you to uninstall part of those drivers or you could face stability problems. So, which is it?

Q. Why doesn’t my GeForce2 GTS based video card run in AGP4X on my Apollo Pro133A based motherboard? 
VIA - nVidia has disabled AGP4X on Apollo Pro133A platforms because of compatibility problems with Apollo Pro133A and newer nVidia drivers. Older nVidia drivers with version numbers of 3.xx solve this problem.

Uh oh. GeForce GTS owners beware! Unfortunatily VIA fails to mention that users of all GeForce cards can have compatibility problems

VIA - Special Announcement for owners of Microsoft Force Feedback 2.
If your computer has a VIA USB host controller, the MS FF2 (Force Feedback 2) joystick is incompatible with the USB chip and will not work.

I believe there is a patch available for this incompatibility.
Ok, moving right along.

-DigiDesign

The following was taken from DigiDesign’s FAQ. If you don’t know who they are, DigiDesign is a company that makes very high-end Professional Music/Sound production software and hardware which is used by many music/production studios. In fact the popular TV show “Survivors” uses DigiDesign’s products. On the music side, Christina Aguilera & Nine Inch Nails are a few music artist that use there products. My point is, is that DigiDesign makes very high-end sound equipment and are serious about what they do. Any way with out further ado…

Here is what DigiDesign has to say about VIA Chipsets.

The VIA chipsets handle IRQ routing and the PCI bus in a way that does not work well with bus master cards. Because Digi 001 is a bus master card we can not support motherboards based on the VIA driver - this incompatibility is consistent with other digital audio cards that are bus masters.

Whoa.. that last sentence is explosive. Nearly all decent soundcards use PCI bus mastering, including the wildly popular SoundBlaster Live! cards. Even though Creative Labs has not publicly admitted that there is a problem (in fear of lost sales, no less) there is certainly evidence of a problem. Again, beware of which soundcard you choose to use with you’re VIA motherboard.
Some common problems using Soundblaster Live! cards with VIA chipsets:
• Sound crackling
• DMA issues
• Sporadic system hangs

-Hauppage

Hauppage is the manufacture of a great line of TV cards for PC's. The WinTV cards are very popular and have solid drivers and software, well, I should say solid drivers until you try to use them on a VIA motherboard.

Hauppage had this to say about it :

"Causes for System Lockups: Some non-INTEL PCI controller chipsets on the motherboard will not allow the WinTV to bus-master video into VGA cards, and therefore will cause a system lockup. All motherboards which use Intel PCI bus controllers work with the WinTV. Also, if your motherboard chipset is compliant to PCI 2.1 specifications, you should be o.k.

Known chipsets that will cause lockups are certain SIS, VIA, UMC, ALI, and some OPTI. Our latest software has some added updates for SIS and VIA incorporated in the software which may address the problem. If the problem persists, sometimes the motherboard manufacturer may provide an updated BIOS which can fix the problem. Also, if the board is based on a VIA chipset, some updates available at VIA's website may also address the issue (http://www.via.com.tw/drivers/index.htm)"

Well, I hate to sound like a broken record but, buyer beware. Hauppage has been trying to get around VIA’s poor bus mastering scheme with updated drivers but many users are only having varied degrees of success with them.

More VIA incompatibilities, bugs, fixes, patches and general information. 

-Microsoft

Microsoft released a patch to Windows 2000 correcting a particularly annoying incompatibility with the VIA AGP chipset. But if the problem is not that bad, MS said, better wait for the next service pack to really fix it.

The issue is a pair of nasty bugs with VIA AGP chipset compatibility that causes machines to hang with 3D rendering and on resume from hibernate mode. The hibernate mode problem is particularly nettlesome, since a user could conceivably get caught in a loop of resumes and OS hangs.

The patch provides a complete fix for both VIA AGP chipset issues, but MS isn't making any guarantees. The patch comes with a disclaimer that it hasn't been fully regression tested and a recommendation that users wait during the next few weeks for a service pack release for Windows 2000, which will incorporate a properly tested version of the patch.

Ok, it seems that Microsoft has released a patch to correct another AGP issue with VIA chipsets, but the patch is not officially guaranteed to work. Microsoft says to wait for SP2. In any case, it’s always good practice to install new service packs as they are released.

-Other VIA related issues

IDE-controller of the VIA south bridge and Ultra ATA/33 CD-ROM (CD-RW, DVD)

Some ATAPI CD-ROM (CD-RW, DVD) drives which support Ultra ATA/33 mode work incorrectly when connected to the VIA BusMaster IDE-controller included in the VIA south bridge via a standard 40-thread cable. The problem lies in breaking of the integrity of data while reading discs or in a wrong recognition of the format when first applying to the disc. There are two ways to solve it. The simplest one is to prohibit usage of Ultra ATA for such storage device in the BIOS or in the diagnostic utility from the VIA IDE BusMaster Drivers' set. The second way can be used in those cases if you don't want to restrict drive's performance, then you have to connect it with a 80-thread Ultra ATA/66-cable (despite the fact that the device will work in Ultra ATA/33 mode!).

Disabling of the secondary IDE channel with BIOS 

In case the secondary channel of the IDE-controller was disabled by BIOS the system manager in Windows 98 can lose the both IDE channels (showing them as disabled), as well as define the USB-controller as a disabled device with "Code 12" status. The Windows 98 SE has a bit different reaction on disabling the secondary channel with BIOS: the IDE controller is recognized as an incorrectly operating device and rouses conflict of resources when making a request for interrupt. The users of the Windows 98 SE can solve this problem having loaded the patch from Microsoft which can be found at www.entry.kiev.ua/Support/245682US8.exe. The Windows 98' users should either renew the OS up to Windows 98 SE (and then use the aforementioned method) or use the Windows system manager functions (not BIOS) in order to disable the secondary IDE channel.

Sound subsystem of the VIA 686A/B south bridge. Game port 

Some boards with the VIA VT82C686A(B) south bridges may feature the following problem: after the integrated sound card (AC'97 Audio) was deleted from the system manager the joystick for a game port left in the list of existing devices. The reason is that the driver of the game port (vjoyd.vxd) can not in fact define whether the device is included in the system, that's why once installed it starts up every time with the system' booting. In order to solve the problem you should delete the device manually.

Conclusion
OK. If you have made it this far I have to congratulate you on your endurance. Well done.
So what can we make of all this? Simply put, VIA’s chipsets suck. Or if you prefer we can blame all the problems on DigiDesign, Hauppage, Nvidia, Creative Labs and Microsoft. Either way, whomever you choose to blame the problems and incompatibilities will still exist. Keep in mind a whole book can be documented to this subject. For practical reasons I choose only to list a few examples. But one thing is certain, with a VIA motherboard new users are forced to hunt all over the net looking for drivers, patches, fixes and updates in hopes of –what many Intel users take for granted- a trouble free system.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

Lowlypawn · May 8, 2001

I have to give you credit for your hard work. That’s a nice looking post. And thx for letting me know about Digidesign, they have a pretty cool website (if your into harddisk recording).

I’m sure I could find some compatibility problems with Intel if I looked hard enough. I don’t think there has (or ever will) be a perfect chipset. Also 90% of most users will not ever run into these problems. If I ever do run into problems with my A7V hard disk recording you will be the 1st to know. I just don’t have the motivation to go and find Intel chipset problems.

Thx & Cya

There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.

Crashman · May 8, 2001

The Intel chipsets that have problems are 810, 820 (to a lesser degree) and 840. Since the 810 is a low performance chipset without external AGP support, it is not relavent to this forum. The 820 has so few problems when used with RDRAM that they are not worth mentioning, especially since hardly anyone in this forum would use RDRAM on a PIII. The 840 is also irrelevant to this forum for the most part. 98% of the Intel users in this forum would use either BX or 815E chipsets, and you would be VERY hard pressed to find any serious issues with those. I am a system builder and have personally witnessed EVERY ONE of the VIA problems listed above.

Cast not thine pearls before the swine

AmdMELTDOWN · May 8, 2001

I've been telling ppl for months about digidesign and I even giving 'em a little link so that they can get the free version of protools, I've paid a bundle for mine and I would not run it on a stupid via based crap-burnt offering from AMD/VIA no matter how fast it goes(it's only gonna crash faster)

so, here's the link again <A HREF="http://www.digidesign.com" target="_new">protools</A> see if this runs on your AMD/VIA burnt offering.

"AMD...you are the weakest link, good bye!"

Lowlypawn · May 8, 2001

Meltdown
You should change your sig to “VIA you are the weakest link”. That would at lease make sense.

Cya

There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.

peteb · May 8, 2001

But then again there are the users like me who pootle through life quite happily never tripping over a VIA chipset related issue.

You pays your money and you takes your choice.

-* This Space For Rent *-
email for application details

HolyGrenade · May 8, 2001

Unfortunately people dont listen to you because you keep crying out "WOLF!".

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and dispair!"

Guest · May 8, 2001

Well, you surely spent some time finding all these. Im not going to contemplate the issues you bring up, neither am I going to say VIA makes the best chipsets around, but I think we have to see this in the correct perspective.

First of, most of the issues you bring up, seem to be related to the Apollo Pro 133 chipset. Indeed, not one of VIA’s greatest achievements, but I think you’d be hard pressed to find many new motherboards using this chipset nowadays. Besides, very few people here will disagree when I say an 815 board is a much better choice for the P3/Celeron.

Secondly, VIA makes chipsets for both Intel and AMD platforms (for P1, P2/3, soon P4, K6, Duron/Atlhon and with various memory interfaces SDR, DDR, .. etc)
.That makes a lot of chipsets, and so a lot of potential for issues, especially if you mix them all together.

Thirdly, like some people already mentioned here, most people will most likely never run into any of these issues. My brother had been using of these “dreaded” Apollo Pro133A boards with a Celeron and P2 for years, switching OS’es and hardware all the time. He has never had any serious issue. I’ve been using a KT133A board for a few months now, and I have yet to see the first problem surface under Win98, 2000 or Linux. And trust me, I run some exotic hardware…

To conclude: you are right that VIA does not make the best chipsets in this world. Intel does that for its own chips, and AMD does that for its durons/athlons. VIA does, however, currently make very affordable chipsets, that run very well in 99.9% of the situations. If that is not good enough for you, than get an intel/amd based motherboard.

Guest · May 8, 2001

Wow, you've convinced me.
I'll go order a new non-VIA MB right now and sit here wringing my hands until it gets here...

Oh wait, that's right.
My KT133A board works perfectly. My only problem was fixed by a bios update about a month ago.

You've done a nice job compiling a list potential problems and issues to look out for.

Some of them are trivial (deleting the joystick device manually), others are major. Many are fixed or have work-arounds. If you see a piece of hardware there that is critical to you, take a closer look, or look elsewhere. Blanket statements like "VIA Sucks" don't cut it.

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.

Sihs · May 8, 2001

Thank you for this informative post. I haven't built a via platform yet but I was thinking of getting an a7m or a7v133, put the asus CD in and hopefully it would work out. I read posts that you should install only portions of the 4 in 1. So my question is how much trouble am I going to face with either of these motherboards?
I remember they replaced the southbridge by the via one to "minimize compatibility issues".

Sh!t Happens.

Guest · May 8, 2001

Wow, that's gotta be the longest post I've ever seen. I have to say that two of my systems use via chipsets (KT133, KX133) and I've never had a compatibility problem, except with a software modem which would completely lock the system every 10 mins. The solution? Buy a better modem...

I don't know that VIA are the only ones to blame, however. There have been poor chipsets from many companies over the years. Some examples (from memory):

1. Intel's 820MTH catastophe. It was slow, and was withdrawn due to 'issues'.
2. Intel's server chipsets would not work with more than 4 Xeons originally.
3. Intel's 810 has problems when you try to use a PCI graphics adapter.
4. SiS chipsets are pieces of ****.
5. ALi's MaGiK chipset is slow, and will not boot 266MHz FSB with bios below rev. 1.03.

Maybe 4 is a bit harsh. Comments?

~ The First Formally Rehabilitated AMD Lemming ~

Ncogneto · May 8, 2001

4. SiS chipsets are pieces of ****.

Actualy there was a time ( way back when) when SIS chipsets were among the best. Then they went the OEM integrated graphics route. However, rumor has it that they have an athlon chipset ready to release that beats all the other chipsets to date...could be interesting.

 SiS says this chip is current in mass production. Of course, it'll be best when we see third party testing of this product, but if SiS is being even remotely honest with their benchmarks, the chipset world could conceivably get turned on its end soon! :O

full article found here<A HREF="http:// http://www.jc-news.com/index.cgi" target="_new">http:// http://www.jc-news.com/index.cgi</A>

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing!

TheAntipop · May 9, 2001

Everett6, what is your system. Im curious because you keep warning people about the evils of VIA, do you ever crash? I personally have owned a VIA chipset on every one of my computer except my 486 (which crashed all the damn time on an intel chipset) and never have i experienced a chipset related crash. i have had windows crashes, i have had overclocking crashes, but never, i repeat NEVER in 4 years of many VIA chipsets have I EVER experienced a chipset related crash. maybe im just lucky you might say? as much as i would like to think so, i am fairly confident that i am just like 90% of the people who own VIA. So unless you propose a real solution, please refrain from posting melodramatic propaganda. we see enough of it already.

oh and "hunt[ing] all over the net looking for drivers, patches, fixes and updates" can be done much easier by visiting your mobo manufactures site or viahardware.com if thats all over the net, then you really have to get out of toms hardware and surf.

<A HREF="http://static.stileproject.com/pika.swf" target="_new">Hyakugojyuuichi!!</A>

Guest · May 9, 2001

Thank you, I did spend about 2.5 hrs putting information together for that post. It could have easily been at least twice as long but I did not have the time. Maybe I will do a follow up or Part II of this because there are some other important issues that people should know about VIA chipsets.
My intent was not to say a bunch of bad things about VIA to make intel look better.. but to warn people about some possible pitfalls and compatibility issues.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

Guest · May 9, 2001

Yes i agree the 810 was probably has been intel's worst chipset. Intel reacted quickly and discontinued it in favor of the 815E which has been recieved well by the public and has proven itself to be rock solid.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

jlbigguy · May 9, 2001

I can only comment on my experience with VIA.

I have 1 VIA based machine, a TBird 900 on an Abit KT7-RAID. Since setup and "going live" on Jan. 1st, it has NEVER crashed or locked up. 18+ hours a day, 7 days a week.

I cannot deny that there are problems with the VIA chipset, but I myself have not experienced them. Even my USB ports work properly (another VIA problem).

Perhaps I was lucky with my choice of components that are in my system.

However, I am still looking for an alternative to VIA for my next AMD based system (and may not find one). By the time I am ready, perhaps Intel will have a great, inexpensive processor. We will see....

This is a Forum, not a playground. Treat it with Respect.

Guest · May 9, 2001

Everybody, may I suggest that you go over to <A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/" target="_new">OverClockers.com</A> and read the new informative articles about VIA chipsets A Lower Standard and When 10% Are Bad, 90% Don't See It. That site deals almost exclusivly with with the AMD/VIA platform and they have pretty much seen it all.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

tlaughrey · May 9, 2001

Wow, that's very magnanimous of you to spend all that time looking up information purely out of the goodness of your own heart and concern for other people. I'm sure you have no axe to grind either for Intel or against VIA or AMD. Are you going to put forth similar effort to find out any possible issues people may have with Intel chipsets?

ejsmith2 · May 9, 2001

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

I've got to hit "G" on this rant.....

The article mentioned there's no optimal solution. It's like politicians in the US; they all suck, just different flavors of swamp water. My Via is doing good right now. I've spent upwards of $2500 on every computer system I've bought since the 486's, except this last one. It was under $1300. Those three zero's on the difference (1000) make it rather attractive for my tax bracket. For that much cash, I can start on my pilots license, or learn how to scuba dive.

Guest · May 9, 2001

Although I dont appreciate your sarcasm.. I will respond to your post anyway.
Spending time to compose a list of compatibility issues with Intel motherboards would be, well, pointless. Since there are so few serious issues that are even worth mentioning. I felt that my time was better spent focusing on VIA motherboards because that seems to be what the majority of newbie DIY are using.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

Mavicator · May 10, 2001

I realize my 2 cents are really only worth around 1/4 cent in here, as I'm farily newbie compared to most people who post here, but I've owned three AMD / VIA machines in the past 3 years and the only problem I've ever had was with an original GeForce card on an FIC SD-11 running an Athlon 700 (problem was power-related). My current machine, a 1ghz Tbird on an Asus A7V has been extremely good to me. No crashing or hanging problems. The only issue I've had was with Asus' Promise ATA100 slots which I finally (whew!) fixed.

I very much appreciate people who do all this research in an impartial and professional manner as it really helps people like myself who lack the time and understanding to do proper research themselves. But even with the information in this thread I still plan to order an AMD 1.33 and an Abit KT7-Raid next week. I've owned Intel and AMD both in the past few years and quite honestly, I love them both!

-- *Ding Ding* Knowledge for the clueless!!! --

Guest · May 10, 2001

Hi.. I respect your decision to buy an AMD/VIA system.. but Please..Please do not buy the Abit KT-7 motherboard. During my research I have seen/heard many awful things about the KT-7 boards. If your dead set on a VIA mobo please stick with the Asus boards they seem to be less trouble prone. Believe me I am not biased against Abit.. I have purchased well over 75 of Abit's intel chipset boards and they have all been great. Just stay away from Abit's VIA boards.
I know someone will pipe in and tell me how wonderful and great there KT-7 board is... but I can only tell you what I have seen and read about the KT-7 makes me cringe.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

Mavicator · May 10, 2001

Thanks. I appreciate that info. I've always prefered Asus boards until the Promise driver problems I've had to deal with on my A7V. That's why I've been looking for an alternative. The KT7-Raid looks like the best "alternative" since I need to run 5 IDE devices. I've heard equal amounts of good and bad on the Abit boards so I figured I could just give it a chance. I'll certainly do more research into the newer Asus boards.

-- *Ding Ding* Knowledge for the clueless!!! --

Lowlypawn · May 10, 2001

Everett, Just ran across an article form Ed Stroligo at Overclockers.com. I consider him one of the better writers on the web. So here is some more ammo for your anti Via campaign.

Cya

<A HREF="http://www.overclockers.com/tips456/" target="_new">http://www.overclockers.com/tips456/</A>

There are only 2 types of hard drives. Ones that have crashed and ones that are about to.

Guest · May 10, 2001

Yes that is a well written article and its right on the money. It's definetly going into my arsenal.

(A)bort, (R)etry, (G)et a beer?

Listen up! What you should know about VIA.

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