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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Charley,
The link worked fine. The initial mayday was chilling. My heart is
still thumping in my chest!
Greg
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:21:29 GMT, Dallas wrote:

> Poopie pants! That was one fast thinking controller.

And one dumbass of a pilot!

He sound a lot like the guy in Bob & Tom's "Mr. Obvious".
Ya know...the guy that freaks out when his car is stolen by a guy outside
of a fancy restaurant (valet parking), who also has a hard time roasting a
turkey (cos the darn bird is still alive), who also has a disfunctional
dishwasher in his kitchen (a dead Mexican)....

Being lost in the clouds is one thing, and I can imagine that it could make
one panicky, but it's a matter of staying level and right side up and then
talking normally to the controller. That's what the intruments on the dash
are for.

Whether you fly IFR or VFR, isn't the pilot supposed to know a few things
about the area in which he/she is flying?
Stuff like: peaks, monuments, direction of flight, minimum cruise altitude?

I mean, if I was flying from A to B (no matter what length), that's the
sort of information I'd have on my person.
When in doubt, contact ATC and find out where you are and if the sky around
you is clear or not.

Yeah yeah....I know....it all sounds so simple, but I just don't panic that
easy. That's what I'd do, seasoned or not.

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Mmmmmm.....beer and doughnuts. - Homer Simpson)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Definitely a chiller. Sounds like he didn't have pitot heat on -- went into
the clouds and his instruments started going whack.

Yes, a pilot always need to pre-flight plan to know MSA (miniumum safe
altitude), TFRs, and definitely a Wx briefing along the route.


"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1bctr5wma7917$.16oeznvvude5d$.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 08:21:29 GMT, Dallas wrote:
>
>> Poopie pants! That was one fast thinking controller.
>
> And one dumbass of a pilot!
>
> He sound a lot like the guy in Bob & Tom's "Mr. Obvious".
> Ya know...the guy that freaks out when his car is stolen by a guy outside
> of a fancy restaurant (valet parking), who also has a hard time roasting a
> turkey (cos the darn bird is still alive), who also has a disfunctional
> dishwasher in his kitchen (a dead Mexican)....
>
> Being lost in the clouds is one thing, and I can imagine that it could
> make
> one panicky, but it's a matter of staying level and right side up and then
> talking normally to the controller. That's what the intruments on the dash
> are for.
>
> Whether you fly IFR or VFR, isn't the pilot supposed to know a few things
> about the area in which he/she is flying?
> Stuff like: peaks, monuments, direction of flight, minimum cruise
> altitude?
>
> I mean, if I was flying from A to B (no matter what length), that's the
> sort of information I'd have on my person.
> When in doubt, contact ATC and find out where you are and if the sky
> around
> you is clear or not.
>
> Yeah yeah....I know....it all sounds so simple, but I just don't panic
> that
> easy. That's what I'd do, seasoned or not.
>
> --
>
> Marcel (SAG-21)
> (Mmmmmm.....beer and doughnuts. - Homer Simpson)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Guess some anti-ice could have helped in that situation. But, I guess IFR
pilots only know to do that?


"Beech45Whiskey" <pjricc@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uaz8f5x3z32m$.dlg@ID-259643.user.individual.net...
> Mike <nospam@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> Definitely a chiller. Sounds like he didn't have pitot heat on -- went
>> into
>> the clouds and his instruments started going whack.
>
> I disagree. If this pilot entered icing conditions moderate enough to
> cover the pitot tube with ice, he would have soon had ice all over the
> leading edges and would have much bigger problems. Additionally, an
> iced-over pitot tube would only lead to an inaccurate airspeed indication.
> Other air pressure gauges are only affected by static port/plumbing
> problems.
>
> To me this was a classic case of a VFR-only pilot inadvertently entering
> IMC (instrument conditions). Disorientation strong enough to cause the
> pilot to think that all gauges have failed has been a common cause of VFR
> into IMC accidents.
>
>> Yes, a pilot always need to pre-flight plan to know MSA (miniumum safe
>> altitude), TFRs, and definitely a Wx briefing along the route.
>
> Sure, but all of this preflight planning goes out the window when the
> pilot
> panics.
>
> --
> Peter
>
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> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
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Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Beech45Whiskey wrote:
>
> Sure, but all of this preflight planning goes out the window when the
> pilot panics.

Even if the airplane has everything money can buy - unfortunately JFK Jr.
comes to mind as a possibility for this scenario..
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"M" == "Mike" writes:

M> Definitely a chiller. Sounds like he didn't have pitot heat on --
M> went into the clouds and his instruments started going whack.
M>
M> Yes, a pilot always need to pre-flight plan to know MSA (miniumum
M> safe altitude), TFRs, and definitely a Wx briefing along the
M> route.

But if the instruments are not working/correct, it would be diffiult
to keep control of what is going on.

Altitude/VSI ASI etc, will not work if pito tubes are frozen.

Yes, maybe HSI would be ok, however relying totally on it for VSI and
altitude you are in trouble.

As airspeed and Altitude/VSI wouldn't be working you could be flying
slow and sinking level and not know it.



--
========
Thanks.....

Jarod
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

> But if the instruments are not working/correct, it would be diffiult
> to keep control of what is going on.
>
> Altitude/VSI ASI etc, will not work if pito tubes are frozen.
>
> Yes, maybe HSI would be ok, however relying totally on it for VSI and
> altitude you are in trouble.
>
> As airspeed and Altitude/VSI wouldn't be working you could be flying
> slow and sinking level and not know it.
>
>
>
A pilot unfamiliar with IMC conditions and flight will think that all
his instruments are malfunctioning/incorrect at the onset of vertigo
(spatial disorientation).

Phrgflyer
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 21:02:43 -0500, CRaSH wrote:

> Even if the airplane has everything money can buy - unfortunately JFK Jr.
> comes to mind as a possibility for this scenario..

Hey Don, what was the actual cause of that crash anyway?

People were speculating that he was paying more attention to his
ladyfriend, which also led to speculation as to what she was doing to
distract him, and therefor didn't noticed that he was slowly descending
until he hit the water.

But from what I saw on tv, it looked like there wasn't that much left of
the aircraft which means it impacted at high velocity and pretty much at a
nose down angle. Right?

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(This is such a drag! - C3PO)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Marcel Kuijper wrote:
> People were speculating that he was paying more attention to his
> ladyfriend, which also led to speculation as to what she was doing to
> distract him, and therefor didn't noticed that he was slowly
> descending until he hit the water.
>
> But from what I saw on tv, it looked like there wasn't that much left
> of the aircraft which means it impacted at high velocity and pretty
> much at a nose down angle. Right?

Without googleing the details, I think they speculated that the marginal VFR
conditions had deteriorated into a situation whereas the horizon and
shoreline lights were indistinguishable with the haze and dim lighting, he
became disoriented, and spiraled in. The Piper he was flying had everything
but a microwave and running water, so instruments shouldn't have been a
problem. I'm sure others have more finite details, but that's what sticks
in my memory... A real tragedy for a family that's had more than it's share
(but also fame, wealth, and glory which may have contributed to the "I can
do it" attitude...)......
Who knows??
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 17:33:38 -0400, Beech45Whiskey wrote:

> Sadly, this accident was a classic case of an overconfident, non-instrument
> rated nor skilled pilot (he was actually several hours into his instrument
> rating instruction) succumbing to spatial disorientation that resulted when
> he turned out towards a black ocean in 3 to 4 mile haze at dark (can you
> say "no discernable natural horizon?").

I read about 25 percent of the accident report you provided the link to
(thanks for that) and came to the same conclusion.
Although I must admit that I'm unable to get a clear idea what "spatial
disorientation" must feel like.

I think it's time I took up that offer to go flying in a Fokker Four, in
which a civilian can get looped, twisted and rolled beyond belief.
I bet if I then close my eyes I might get close enough to experiencing
"spatial disorientation", weightlessness and serious Gs.
Either that or nausea. 🙂


> As a result, the pilot inadvertently entered a descending bank (a common
> mistake when someone does not have a proper instrument scan) and most
> likely attempted to correct the descent first by pulling back on the yoke,
> rather than leveling the wings. This action led to a "death spiral," or a
> tightened, high-rate of descent spiral into the ocean. Of course, this is
> speculation based on radar returns.

"The target's descent rate eventually exceeded 4,700 fpm."

I'm wondering if the airplane itself even has the power to pull out of that
when at such a low altitude. I can imagine a pilot pulling back on the yoke
with all his weight and the airplane responding rather sluggishly.

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the
earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been,
and there you will always long to return. - Leonardo da Vinci)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

>
> I read about 25 percent of the accident report you provided the link
> to (thanks for that) and came to the same conclusion.
> Although I must admit that I'm unable to get a clear idea what
> "spatial disorientation" must feel like.

Spatial disorientation is almost instant if you are not trained to follow
your instruments. I recall the first time I entered cloud while under PPL
training. I didn't know which way was up. Luckily my instructor was driving
and I trusted him, but it was a horrible feeling.
Try with the sim at night with the room lights out and fly into thick cloud.
Try it with the articificial horizon blanked out if you can. You may get
some idea...

Cheers,

Quilly

Sorry, but an individual reply goes into my spam filter
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Beech45Whiskey"
> In my case, the instructor told me to look down at the floor of the
> aircraft while he dove, banked, climbed, banked, dove, etc. At some point
> he said, "Your airplane"

I've actually been through that... in the back seat, I almost forgot until
your story.

My dad retired from the Air Force was getting his ATR (today it's called an
ATP). He'd call me up to ride in the back seat. This one was the "unusual
attitudes" check ride. When we finished the ride I was kissing the ground.

Dallas
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Marcel Kuijper wrote:
> Yeah yeah....I know....it all sounds so simple, but I just don't panic that
> easy. That's what I'd do, seasoned or not.

Heh. I guarantee you that if your inner ear is telling you that the
plane is upside down, you'll panic 🙂

Yes, it does sound so simple. Yet hundreds of pilots have died from
spatial disorientation, including many fighter pilots. There's a
famous test that showed that once disorientation kicks in, most people
have about 30 seconds to live. You cannot claim that it wouldn't
happen to you.

All it takes usually is for the pilot to look down at his map for a
minute, and then if you raise or turn your head too quickly, your ears
betray you. You think you're diving and banking, so you pull up and
turn the other way... except now you've slowed down and boom, you're in
a spin. Or into a graveyard spiral.

As far as JFK goes, check the records. A couple of years before him, a
very experienced commercial flight crew flew a graveyard spiral in just
the same area, on the same kind of night. Then, too, there was that
747 flight out of (I think) New Delhi, where the pilot (due to one
failed instrument) turned the airliner upside down right into the
ocean, killing everyone aboard.

For more info on spatial disorientation, check out:

http://www.spatiald.wpafb.af.mil/index.aspx

Best, Kev
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:25:59 +0000 (UTC), Quilljar wrote:

> Spatial disorientation is almost instant if you are not trained to follow
> your instruments. I recall the first time I entered cloud while under PPL
> training. I didn't know which way was up. Luckily my instructor was driving
> and I trusted him, but it was a horrible feeling.

If you're flying an airplane with an open cockpit I could understand the
level of difficulty. Otherwise I would think that any well trained pilot
wouldn't trust his eyes but his intruments.

Yeah I know....easy for me to say! 🙂

I really gotta get back up there soon and get a first hand feel of actual
disorientation. Maybe then I won't feel like such an idiot.


> Try with the sim at night with the room lights out and fly into thick cloud.
> Try it with the articificial horizon blanked out if you can. You may get
> some idea...

I guess I could give that a try. I might have to go into the panel.cfg and
turn off the HSI light, but since the body can't feel what's going on I
doubt it can really be simulated. But I'll see what I can do.

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Q: What do you do when Stormtroopers look for you?
A: Lock the doors. And hope they don't have blasters!)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Quilly wrote: "Spatial disorientation is almost instant if you are not
trained to follow your instruments.

Brings back old memories of my first night takeoff during my PPL
training. I was flying a Grumman Traveler, and it happened to be a
very dark night, high overcast. Not sure if it was because of the low
wing, or just the nose up attitude, but at rotation, all visual
reference was immediately lost....just one big black void. I had to
really force myself to stay relaxed, and concentrate on the
instruments. Seemed like forever, but once I lowered the nose, it was
a great relief to again see a brightly lit horizon! I can only imagine
the anxiety felt by a non-IFR rated pilot flying into zero-zero...

I never had that lost feeling while under the hood, probably because I
knew it was only simulated! [:0)

Prop
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:isvfuxgd199k.usa448jo2e19.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:25:59 +0000 (UTC), Quilljar wrote:
>
>> Spatial disorientation is almost instant if you are not trained to follow
>> your instruments. I recall the first time I entered cloud while under PPL
>> training. I didn't know which way was up. Luckily my instructor was
>> driving
>> and I trusted him, but it was a horrible feeling.
>
> If you're flying an airplane with an open cockpit I could understand the
> level of difficulty. Otherwise I would think that any well trained pilot
> wouldn't trust his eyes but his intruments.
>

This is exactly the point...there is NOTHING for your eyes to trust. You
fall back on what you are feeling in the seat of your pants BUT you can be
in an unusual attitude (and descending) and all the while you won't feel any
different than when you are in straight and level flight.

When I took my PP-ASEL checkride, during the "under the hood" phase, the DPE
had *the most* amazing touch flying the plane into attitudes that I was sure
were one thing, but when I'd pick my head up and scan the instruments, we
were "180 degrees" in the opposite situation.

I was sure we were in a left wing low climb (and I was primed to shove the
nose down and add power...), but damned if we weren't right wing low and
screaming toward the ground (which called for immeadiately chopping the
power, rolling wings level and gently pulling out into level flight.) It
took a second or two (and probably longer...) to make the mental switch from
what I felt to what I saw via the instruments.

<SNIP>

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL / Sim Pilot Too
AZ Cloudbusters
Chandler, AZ
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Jay Beckman"
> took a second or two (and probably longer...) to make the mental switch
from
> what I felt to what I saw via the instruments.

That's nothin'... just wait till you drive on the wrong side of the road in
some old British colony for a week or two then get back to the USA.

For a month after, I couldn't remember which was the correct side of the
road to be on.

🙂

Dallas
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

Dallas wrote:
>
> For a month after, I couldn't remember which was the correct side of
> the road to be on.
>


And you're usually in the middle of a busy intersection, or entering a
"round a bout" when this feeling of utter stupidity strikes!!
=(8-0)))))))))))))))
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"CRaSH"
> > For a month after, I couldn't remember which was the correct side of
> > the road to be on.
> And you're usually in the middle of a busy intersection, or entering a
> "round a bout" when this feeling of utter stupidity strikes!!

I am so pleased to hear that it's not just me this happens to... It
happened to me for a second yesterday and it's been 2 months since I was in
the Bahamas riding on the left.

:-\

Dallas
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:49:14 -0500, CRaSH wrote:

> And you're usually in the middle of a busy intersection, or entering a
> "round a bout" when this feeling of utter stupidity strikes!!
> =(8-0)))))))))))))))

I think it's just outside of London where they have a large round-a-bout
with a whole bunch of little round-a-bouts inside of it.
And the Brits are the only people in the world who know how it works. 🙂

--

Marcel (SAG-21)
(Chance favours the prepared mind.)
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper" <zoepetier_nothing_here@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1grmcgrwe3y8u.8pyqjyjs5nw3.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 07:49:14 -0500, CRaSH wrote:
>
>> And you're usually in the middle of a busy intersection, or entering a
>> "round a bout" when this feeling of utter stupidity strikes!!
>> =(8-0)))))))))))))))
>
> I think it's just outside of London where they have a large round-a-bout
> with a whole bunch of little round-a-bouts inside of it.
> And the Brits are the only people in the world who know how it works. 🙂
>
> --
>
> Marcel (SAG-21)
> (Chance favours the prepared mind.)
Marcel,
If you're referring to the roundabout at Hemel Hempstead (and I think you
are), what makes you think even us Brits know how it works??? I remember my
own immediate reaction when I first came upon it (Help! I'm on a roundabout,
why is there traffic coming straight at me??)!
Regards,
Steve.
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"Marcel Kuijper"
> I think it's just outside of London where they have a large round-a-bout

I Canada, wouldn't you call it a round-a-boot?

Dallas
 
Archived from groups: alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim (More info?)

"stevem"
>(Help! I'm on a roundabout,
> why is there traffic coming straight at me??)!


Mayday! Mayday! I'm stuck on a roundabout and can't get off! 🙂

Dallas
 
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