Microsoft Faces More Anti-Trust Battles

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TwoDigital

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Microsoft wasn't "anointed" with the most popular operating system nor the most popular web browser. At one point, nearly every PC ran on IBM-branded DOS or OS/2 before Windows was even a spark in Bill Gates' mind.

If you want your non-IE browser to shine, make your own (Opera, Chrome, Firefox) and if the market likes it, they'll use it. The failure of any other browser to knock Microsoft out of their 70%+ market share isn't because Microsoft bullies anyone [they apparently DO, but that's not why people us IE.] Make a better browser and then MARKET it so people know what it does and that it exists.
 

TwoDigital

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Just to add, I'm not a Microsoft fanboy. I am using Ubuntu Ibex with Firefox. I run into sites that just don't play well with Firefox and you do what you need to do... but suing a profitable company for making a product that a lot of people (other than me) like to use won't solve YOUR issues in development or getting your product out there as an alternative.
 

tenor77

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Maybe I miss the point of it all, but WHY does any company care what COMPLETELY FREE browser I use? Seriously, is it for bragging rights? I don't see this business model as being profitable.
 

ThePatriot

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I would welcome the moment that MS breaks up camp and leave the EU without their O/S. That would force users to apply an open source O/S plus (EU) companies can invest in new opportunities. That is a win-win situation.
Leaves the US intelligence community with a huge problem: no more back doors to open. (Besides the one in Cisco software; that's right, I said it: Cisco is a software producer)
 

megabuster

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[citation][nom]Startled_Toad[/nom]Yer im usuing certified vista hardware as it was all released with a shiny "VISTA READY" stiker on it, and then u take the drivers tht came with the "VISTA READY" hardware put it all together, dus it work? Hell no. Taken me 6 months to get 64bit to run stable, turns out tht i need to have my ddr2800 mem runnin at ddr2667 speeds otherwise i get endless bluescreens. Course ms want us to use vista they are stopping selling xp thou havent done coz of the state of vista which they themselves have admited isnt very good.If i was to sell a piece of hardware like a laptop or motherboard to a customer saying that it works perfectly fine. When they get it home find it dusnt work properly who gets in trouble for it? they cant sell a product that dusnt work, especially for the price they are charging for it these days. £70ish for something that dusnt work properly? Yer but by not conforming to standards they are bringing these lawsuits on themselves, and intentionally making it difficult for other people to create compatable software for there software, and this then has a knock on effect to the end user, because ms want to be the only manufacturer around they are spoiling it for the rest of us. Because safari follow ths normal webstandards like ff and opera. Why do most versions of linux come with ff?[/citation]

Did it really say Vista x64 Ready? And yes, it is not the same as 32-bit as far as drivers are concerned.
 

Startled_Toad

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[citation][nom]megabuster[/nom]Did it really say Vista x64 Ready? And yes, it is not the same as 32-bit as far as drivers are concerned.[/citation]
Yep it says VISTA READY on it there for it shuould support 32bit and 64bit as they are both vista. As my mobo cost me £150 7 mnths ago it definatly will support it.
 
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Joe average will not install anyhthing else than what standard comes with windows. Microsoft knows this and takes advantage of this. They force themselves into markets by simply providing the software standard with windows. Other companies only get a chance if microsoft really screws up like they did with security in IE. This is exactly what the EU tries to fight.
 

neiroatopelcc

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[citation][nom]Startled_Toad[/nom]Yer im usuing certified vista hardware as it was all released with a shiny "VISTA READY" stiker on it, and then u take the drivers tht came with the "VISTA READY" hardware put it all together, dus it work? Hell no. Taken me 6 months to get 64bit to run stable, turns out tht i need to have my ddr2800 mem runnin at ddr2667 speeds otherwise i get endless bluescreens. Course ms want us to use vista they are stopping selling xp thou havent done coz of the state of vista which they themselves have admited isnt very good.If i was to sell a piece of hardware like a laptop or motherboard to a customer saying that it works perfectly fine. When they get it home find it dusnt work properly who gets in trouble for it? they cant sell a product that dusnt work, especially for the price they are charging for it these days. £70ish for something that dusnt work properly? Yer but by not conforming to standards they are bringing these lawsuits on themselves, and intentionally making it difficult for other people to create compatable software for there software, and this then has a knock on effect to the end user, because ms want to be the only manufacturer around they are spoiling it for the rest of us. Because safari follow ths normal webstandards like ff and opera. Why do most versions of linux come with ff?[/citation]
Are you entirely sure that your system is stable? To me it would sound like your chipset or memory modules might be unstable? Tried running prime95 ? and if you're using ddr1 it's quite likely the vrm or chipset has paid the toll of old age anyway. Unless you've done an 8 hour prime test, you can't truely blame microsoft for the bluescreens.


[citation][nom]ThePatriot[/nom]I would welcome the moment that MS breaks up camp and leave the EU without their O/S. That would force users to apply an open source O/S plus (EU) companies can invest in new opportunities. That is a win-win situation.Leaves the US intelligence community with a huge problem: no more back doors to open. (Besides the one in Cisco software; that's right, I said it: Cisco is a software producer)[/citation]
You are aware that splitting up microsoft would likely cost a lot of jobs, and drasticly decrease the value of the company for their stock holders right? That might be good for some competators, but I doubt it's going to be good for the public that has to pay the consequences. Splitting bell labs was probably one of the worst choices in us history in the first place. Why repeat it?
Anyway. If microsoft would stop supplying operating systems to the eu that would be bad for eu, not for microsoft. It would leave the majority of european industrial countries in ruin. Blocking the windows update servers from european contries, or just not supplying new updates to europe, in turn making all windows systems vulnearable. And alternatives require so much money to learn that any company depending heavily on computer use would suffer such a big expense in restaffing or staff training, that they might risk going out of business.
That'd be great for places like my company, which trains people in using linux, but I don't think it'll be good for more than a handful companies.
ps. my company is not only offering linux, but certified cisco and microsoft courses too. We'll survive no matter what. Except the goverment that funds us won't without microsoft licenses, so that might be tricky.

Anyway ignore all this rant and just read this : Microsoft should stand up and challenge the eu commission instead of playing lapdog.

Neiro
 

neiroatopelcc

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[citation][nom]euinhabitant[/nom]Joe average will not install anyhthing else than what standard comes with windows. Microsoft knows this and takes advantage of this. They force themselves into markets by simply providing the software standard with windows. Other companies only get a chance if microsoft really screws up like they did with security in IE. This is exactly what the EU tries to fight.[/citation]

I'm not entirely sure about your assessment. It would be correct to assume that many people in their 40s & 50s that just have the computer to chat with their kids or grandkids and read email on won't install extra software. However people of all ages, that don't just have the computer for a specific purpose will. Just two days ago I went to fix my grandma's laptop. She'd found and installed some smilies for msn, that came with a toolbar she couldn't get rid of. That women hasn't had a computer for the first 60 or so years of her life (forgot her age, but my granddad was 82 when he died, so she's not just 40). She also doesn't understand english, or knows how to differenciate between internet and local stuff. Yet she manages to install a multitute of software she wants to use. If she can do that, anyone can. And in fact I think many people with teens living at home will have more than just the 'standard package' installed, as kids these days know computers much more naturally than us who had to learn it first.

Anyway. I don't believe eu is trying to fight monopoly, but actually trying to push european made software to the forefront by making the big evil microsoft look bad enough for people to feel it's the right thing to do to download and use inferior software - because it isn't microsoft labelled.

Anyway. I'm not a microsoft loyalist. I've just realized they're the best choice available, and they're not actually doing anything wrong. In contrast to apple or sun.
 
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i would love to see microsoft push back and pull from the EU. I'd love to see the reaction from the "commission".

The question still left unanswered is the what the business model for opera is and how Internet Explorer not conforming to the "standards" has adversely effected that model. Its unclear to me how, by providing a free product such as Opera, you can complain about another free product effecting your bottom line.

And for the record, I am a web developer, and I do know the difficulties in working with the specifics of varying web browsers.
 

tayb

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[citation][nom]Startled_Toad[/nom]Its about time ms go sued for something. Dnt know why they think they can do what they want and then people will just go along with it because they have no other choice. Standards are put there for everyone to follow. Why should they be different. They already get away with selling useless pieces of software that dnt work properly (vista)[/citation]

Yeah. I don't know why they think they can get away with including an internet browser as a part of the operating system.

Apple is a real example of what a company SHOULD do. They don't put a browser or a media player on their operating system. They don't tie all of their products to iTunes. They don't conceal all the innards and make them impossible to open so that you HAVE to go them for repair. They don't overcharge by total costs + 34%.

They don't do any of that. Microsoft is the bad guy here clearly.

It is a wonder Firefox has managed to penetrate the market without resorting to lame duck lawsuits like Opera. Maybe make a better browser people will download it?
 

IH8U

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Looks to me that the EU wants money, plain and simple. The Euro is falling, the Dollar is rising. "Let's sue an America based company, decreasing the dollar, and increasing the Euro". If they sue MS for Internet Explorer (which has become a DEFACTO STANDARD), they need to sue Crapple, Firefox, Google (even tho chrome tanked), and Opera. Also all internet browsers are FREE! what money is exchanging hands for them (except maybe AOhelL). And you can still disable IE from even opening (if you are even reasonably intelligent). Most do this after using IE to download the browser of their choice.
 

sykozis

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MS was split up into OS and Software with web apps (IE and Messenger) being the only exception. Judging by Opera's market share...I don't see a reason for the EU to really care about them. They've existed for 14 years with no impact on the web browser market at all. Last time I used Opera it didn't support java, javascript, flash, shockwave, activex, vbscript or css. After speaking to a friend the other night, it's my understanding that Opera still lacks proper support for java, javascript, flash or shockwave. When I do a webpage, I intentionally verify it's functionality with IE and Firefox only. If it works on Opera...it's purely by accident and I have no problem writing scripts to prevent it. I tried to support Opera in it's infancy..but came to the conclusion that it's in the best interest of the market for Opera to cease to exist. I personally use IE, Firefox, Chrome and Safari. As for Windows Vista...if you can't get it to work, sounds more like an issue with user incompetence than a problem with windows. Been completely stable for me since day 1.
 

Startled_Toad

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[citation][nom]neiroatopelcc[/nom]Are you entirely sure that your system is stable? To me it would sound like your chipset or memory modules might be unstable? Tried running prime95 ? and if you're using ddr1 it's quite likely the vrm or chipset has paid the toll of old age anyway. Unless you've done an 8 hour prime test, you can't truely blame microsoft for the bluescreens.[/citation]

Im using a a rog crosshair 2 forumula everythin is like 7 months old. Since i changed all the speeds iv not had a single blue screen in a mnth. Where as i was haveing 2/3 an hour before. Will run that stress test 2nite with the settings i have atm. Theres no point me running it with standard settings as it blue screens with out the need 2 stress it. so i wudnt get very far with it
 

neiroatopelcc

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[citation][nom]Startled_Toad[/nom]Im using a a rog crosshair 2 forumula everythin is like 7 months old. Since i changed all the speeds iv not had a single blue screen in a mnth. Where as i was haveing 2/3 an hour before. Will run that stress test 2nite with the settings i have atm. Theres no point me running it with standard settings as it blue screens with out the need 2 stress it. so i wudnt get very far with it[/citation]
That your hardware is only 7 months old doesn't mean it is in perfect working order. You could've done something wrong under assembly, or it could be broken in the first place.
As an example, I've just got an email that a new hp 6710b laptop is broken. It's 3 days old. And that's the third new laptop I have to return this year. So you see, even new stuff can be broken.
 

neiroatopelcc

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[citation][nom]tayb[/nom]Yeah. I don't know why they think they can get away with including an internet browser as a part of the operating system. Apple is a real example of what a company SHOULD do. They don't put a browser or a media player on their operating system. They don't tie all of their products to iTunes. They don't conceal all the innards and make them impossible to open so that you HAVE to go them for repair. They don't overcharge by total costs + 34%. They don't do any of that. Microsoft is the bad guy here clearly. It is a wonder Firefox has managed to penetrate the market without resorting to lame duck lawsuits like Opera. Maybe make a better browser people will download it?[/citation]

Just in what world do you live? I'm not eligible to say who's the bad guy and who's not, but apple is doing a lot more unethical stuff than microsoft could ever even consider.

And they DO tie their stuff together. Once you've bought into apple, you can't get out without having to throw all fruit branded stuff away basicly.
 

falconqc

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Neiroatopelcc, I think Tayb Was being sarcastic. Everything he listed, Apple does. He was trying to point out that Apple is even worse at this antitrust thing than Microsoft is.

I think Microsoft should just stop bundling IE with windows. No browser at all in the EU. I personally prefer Firefox myself, but I still need to open up IE to download Firefox after a fresh install. Let's see these guys freak out at not having a browser anymore right out of the box. How you gonna get your Opera now?

Who uses Opera anyway? Want people to use your browser, make something that works and is compliant with established standards.

@euinhabitant :

Most people are just plain dumb and lack common sense. I've been working in IT and tech support for a long time, and I've seen people do dumb stuff. Plug a USB key via a USB adapter to a PS2 port, Plug two ports of a same router or switch via a cable, Delete critical files from their systems and blame me.

Yes they will use whatever comes out of the box. That's because someone at Microsoft figured out that 90% of their customer base wouldn't be smart enough to download their own browser, media player or whatever else and install it themselves.

Just imagine the flaming Microsoft would get if it had never bundled IE. Their competitors would be happy, but the people Microsoft actually care about, their customers, would be pretty ticked off.
 
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