News Microsoft sets 16GB default for RAM for AI PCs – machines will also need 40 TOPS of AI compute: Report

[derekullo]

As a rule I tend to max out the memory in my pc's so when the AI revolt happens I can say I was in full support.

 

[Notton]

ChromeOS can also run just fine on an N105 with 8GB of RAM

But if I want to edit videos, pictures, or play games, then I'm kind of stuck with my 32GB gaming PC.

 

[Heat_Fan89]

This is nuts. There is a reason why Windows 10 is still the most used Windows system. A vast number of users, both private and commercial (small and big), can run the software they need to run on a Windows 10 machine. Setting a minimum standard this high for EVERYONE who upgrades to Windows 12 is just a method to force more money out of users who have no actual need for such a high level machine. Microsoft COULD offer two versions of Windows 12 - one with and one without the AI specs requirement. But we know that's not going to happen, don't we.

I could be way off and may have interpreted the article totally wrong but an 8GB PC can and should run Windows 12 just fine. You just won't have the ability to use any of the AI stuff. Which is fine by me.

One of Dell's highest selling Windows 11 laptop configs have 8GB of onboard (soldered) RAM. If Windows 12 were to eliminate those devices, you would have a lot more resentment towards Microsoft.

Personally for my day to day tasks I now use either Macs or have installed Linux on my laptops. The only PC's running Windows 10 are my gaming rigs where those games require Windows. I have gotten tired of Microsoft's antics with their needless popups while i'm trying to get things done.

 

[usertests]

From what I can gather, and it's not altogether clear, 40 TOPS is an insane amount of raw CPU performance that pretty much rules out any consumer processor now on the market. Is Microsoft putting all pre-W12 hardware on the chopping block?

CPUs will need some sort of ASIC assist to achieve those numbers, perhaps in the form of an "AI ready" GPU for existing builds

If this is the baseline for an AI ready W12 build; fine. But... If that's the minimum spec to run Windows 12... just wowsers. Microsoft and it's partners have really been turning the screws on consumers since COVID, haven't they?

AMD's Hawk Point reaches about 39 TOPS (according to AMD) when combining CPU+GPU+XDNA and likely qualifies, but AMD's Strix Point, Qualcomm's Snapdragon X Elite, and Intel's Lunar Lake should all have NPUs capable of exceeding 40 TOPS on their own.

The "AI PC" push is optional and clearly focused on premium laptops first. Although I think it might be a good thing to have strict minimum requirements for Win12 and just allow Win11 to be supported in parallel, but M$ isn't going to go for that. The 40+ TOPS is for a sticker on laptops, probably still running Win11 later this year unless Win12 release is imminent.

This is nuts. There is a reason why Windows 10 is still the most used Windows system. A vast number of users, both private and commercial (small and big), can run the software they need to run on a Windows 10 machine. Setting a minimum standard this high for EVERYONE who upgrades to Windows 12 is just a method to force more money out of users who have no actual need for such a high level machine. Microsoft COULD offer two versions of Windows 12 - one with and one without the AI specs requirement. But we know that's not going to happen, don't we.

This is for "labeling as an AI PC" and only according to unknown sources, not official. Windows 12 will likely have flexible requirements just like Windows 11 did after its own requirements scare, probably supporting 4 GB RAM minimum.

ChromeOS can also run just fine on an N105 with 8GB of RAM

But if I want to edit videos, pictures, or play games, then I'm kind of stuck with my 32GB gaming PC.

I think you mean N100, and it can run fine on far slower than that. 4 GB is still somewhat usable, although 8 GB is becoming the new minimum anyone wants and is required for "Chromebook Plus".

That was my question as well. WTH is an AI pc?

It's like the more we add to computers the less general purpose they become!

Adding entire new accelerators makes them more general purpose, not less. They can do a little bit of everything: computation, including AVX-512 (Intel will bring it back with "AVX10"), graphics/gaming, video decode/encode, and now machine learning inference separate from the GPU. With a multi-display setup, you can feasibly do some of these things at the same time, e.g. play a game with video playing on another screen, and generating images or another AI task in the background.

The "AI PC" is marketing, but we've seen demos of software like Photoshop, GIMP, Krita, Audacity, Zoom, etc. using an NPU. The current NPUs are slower than using the iGPU, but that will start to change with the release of Strix Point and Snapdragon X Elite.

If we get dense quantum computers that work at "room temperature" (read: up to boiling) in the next 10-20 years, those should also be added on SoCs or chiplets. Put absolutely everything in one package, including 3D memory.

 

[PEnns]

The non-AI human brain decided a while ago that 16 GB is the sweet spot for almost everything, aside from very demanding applications.

So, thank you very much, MS and Captain AI-Obvious for this RAM epiphany.

 

[das_stig]

More Microshaft artificial limitations to help sales, just like TPM2 from WIndows 11, it will probably run fine, if not a litttle slower.

 

[palladin9479]

first thing I do is shut off virtual memory/ pagefile when configuring a new system, since NVMe drives and 16+gb fast ram you just don't need it

Incredible bad idea, the pagefile isn't about being able to "swap" to disk if you run out but to let Windows Memory Management have a guaranteed amount of reserve memory pool. There are different metrics when it comes to memory management with "in use" being only one of them. You have "is free", "can be made free", and "might be needed one day". It's that last one that mess's with us, whenever a process launches it requests for memory to be reserved ahead of actually allocating and using it. It's entirely possibly for a program using 2GB of memory to have reserved 4 or 6GB. Modern OS's are smart enough to know that those memory reservations will likely never be used, but to ensure system stability they have to allow for the possibility that they might be. If there is no secondary pool of virtual memory, then the OS is going to be very strict and conservative to ensure it never runs into that scenario.

And btw "Free" memory is kinda of a bad thing unless the computer just started up, we want as much stuff into the "can be made free" part as possible, aka caching.

 

[Deleted member 2969713]

I completely disagree. My laptop with a Ryzen 4700U and 8GB LPDDR4X, constantly has to page even with non gaming usage (no dGPU so it can't really game anyway) especially when I browse the internet and even when I launch a casual game, and my desktop as I sit here now is showing 17GB RAM in use (15.8GB without that memory hog Steam up) and I just have Outlook, Edge with 2 tabs, Discord, Phone Link, and a few other things in the background like Razer Synapse. So while 8GB may get you through the day and SSDs, especially NVMe SSDs, have greatly mitigated the paging penalty, saying less than 16GB is sufficient for "all but the most memory-intensive users" is incorrect.

That amount of RAM usage seems hugely excessive for what you said you have open, so that's weird. As I mentioned in a prior post, I opened up the majority of the programs installed on my PC all at once, including big boys like Visual Studio, Microsoft Edge, and Steam, and only managed to get my memory usage up to 9 GB according to task manager (I have 16 GB total). If you have a lot of RAM, it's possible that some of your apps (and the Windows OS itself) are reserving huge amounts of RAM that they don't necessarily need because they can see that there's a ton of memory free to claim. If not that, then I'm not sure why your memory usage would be so high.

Also given that 16GB DDR5 is $60-$70 and 32GB DDR5 is $105-$120, there's no reason to go cheap and use 16GB unless it's a very basic office computer ordered from an OEM which charges $100+ for the 32GB upgrade.

Sure, memory is cheap, which is great, but when (in my experience/opinion) 16 GB is good enough for most users, you might as well put that ~$60 towards something else. If you're building a gaming PC, for instance, that $60 would better serve you going towards your GPU than towards 32 GB memory in most cases. Of course, if you know you're going to need vast amounts of memory or you have the budget for it regardless, by all means, buy 32+ GB RAM.

 

[jasonf2]

From what I can gather, and it's not altogether clear, 40 TOPS is an insane amount of raw CPU performance that pretty much rules out any consumer processor now on the market. Is Microsoft putting all pre-W12 hardware on the chopping block?

CPUs will need some sort of ASIC assist to achieve those numbers, perhaps in the form of an "AI ready" GPU for existing builds

If this is the baseline for an AI ready W12 build; fine. But... If that's the minimum spec to run Windows 12... just wowsers. Microsoft and it's partners have really been turning the screws on consumers since COVID, haven't they?

As a general statement with current gen stuff 40 TOPS is an insane amount of raw CPU performance. The ASIC you speak of is an NPU (Neural Processing Unit). NPU cores are really just starting to be integrated into consumer products now and from what I can see will expand on the roadmap for future chips.

If this is the baseline for a W12 build you are going to see a ton of orphaned hardware.

 

[sjkpublic]

Well these are far less resources than a Borg. But we are getting close. As time goes on more computer physical resources are devoted to the company for your piece of gain.

 

[dalauder]

Just like Microsoft, set 16GB RAM a minimum at a time when 32GB needs to be minimum for anything that's not a POS or very low task office machine.

It is weird how stingy all manufacturers are with RAM. No machine over $500 should have under 32GB.

 

[dalauder]

I'm wonder how the linux' world will answer to MS AI.

Will they bundle Alpaca with Linux? It could overcome the community lack of acceptance, and will to fix, Linux unusability.

Linux Mint pretty much fixes the "unusability".

But I don't see a reason to counter the AI. I don't personally expect to ever use it, just like I never use Cortana.

 

[dalauder]

That amount of RAM usage seems hugely excessive for what you said you have open, so that's weird. As I mentioned in a prior post, I opened up the majority of the programs installed on my PC all at once, including big boys like Visual Studio, Microsoft Edge, and Steam, and only managed to get my memory usage up to 9 GB according to task manager (I have 16 GB total). If you have a lot of RAM, it's possible that some of your apps (and the Windows OS itself) are reserving huge amounts of RAM that they don't necessarily need because they can see that there's a ton of memory free to claim. If not that, then I'm not sure why your memory usage would be so high.

I think it depends mostly on Chrome usage.