Microsoft Suspends Win 7/8.1 Updates For Intel Kaby Lake, AMD Ryzen CPUs

[razor512]

This is why for a while i have been saying that AMD Ryzen will have trouble capturing a large market share due to the lack of support for older versions of windows. Not many people like windows 10, as seen by their sub 25% market share, but due to Ryzen not seeking support on older versions of windows, they basically only have access to 1/4th of the market, while for people looking for current gen IPC, can still go with skylake on older versions of windows. (Kabylake did not improve IPC).

One example of AMD losing sales, is I was set to do an AMD Ryzen build, but once they made it clear they would not support windows 7, I did a skylake build.

 

[razor512]

So this is Microsoft's way to prevent people from getting better performance from Ryzen? I've read that Windows 7 gets better performance in games when using Ryzen.

I'm planning to upgrade my Windows 7 HTPC to a Pentium G4560. Was planning to upgrade to Windows 10 anyway, but now I guess I have no choice. I hope everything continues to work.

Assuming no different code path or instructions are used, windows 7 tends to offer better app performance, since it does less in the background. Windows 10 has far mote contention for CPU time, on top of that, it likes to keep elements of the system UI loaded into VRAM even while gaming. They tried to mitigate some of these issues by adding a game mode, but even then, windows 7 does a better job since without extra work, if you keep the bootup clean, you end up with more consistent and higher application performance when things are sensitive to CPU time.

I currently have both windows 7 and windows 10 on my skylake build, and after a few months of trying to use both, I have largely stuck with windows 7. Due to how boot management is handles, I keep each install on a separate drive, and keep all media and bulk data on a 3rd drive, thus allowing me to easily switch, but windows 10 is a worse experience.

Even with tools such as winaero tweaker which allow me to remove some of the negative space on the title bar, I have been unable to get the UI elements in windows 10, as small as the classic theme from windows 7. Simply put, in windows 7, I get more vertical screen space, without giving up any UI features.

The only reason I currently have to use it, is DX12, and lucky for me, it is hardly ever used.

 

[cmi86]

So this is basically strong arming new builders off the the only good OS MS has... Win 8/8.1/10 they are all junk. MS if you want people to buy your new OS, make it better than the software it is supposed to replace. Win 7 is better, so I use it.

 

[ravewulf]

If I could get rid of OneDrive and all the other extra crap that comes built in to Win10 I'd be more tempted.

That and disable Windows' ability to check whether a program is "officially supported" or not. I use an older version of Daemon Tools Lite because it leaves the empty virtual optical drive in place when there isn't a disc image mounted instead of having it disappear like a removable flash drive would in the new version. I tried to install it and Win10 told me that version of the software wasn't supported. To work around it I just copied the program files from a Win7 install into my "Program Files (Admin)" folder and it works perfectly fine. The "Admin" Program Files folder is something I had to create for a different program because of how overly restricted MS made the usual Program Files folders even on "administrator" accounts.

I shouldn't have to work around "features" of an OS just to be able to use it. A good OS should be unobtrusive and let you follow your own way of getting things done without additional clutter.

 

[ledhead11]

If I could get rid of OneDrive and all the other extra crap that comes built in to Win10 I'd be more tempted.

That and disable Windows' ability to check whether a program is "officially supported" or not. I use an older version of Daemon Tools Lite because it leaves the empty virtual optical drive in place when there isn't a disc image mounted instead of having it disappear like a removable flash drive would in the new version. I tried to install it and Win10 told me that version of the software wasn't supported. To work around it I just copied the program files from a Win7 install into my "Program Files (Admin)" folder and it works perfectly fine. The "Admin" Program Files folder is something I had to create for a different program because of how overly restricted MS made the usual Program Files folders even on "administrator" accounts.

I shouldn't have to work around "features" of an OS just to be able to use it. A good OS should be unobtrusive and let you follow your own way of getting things done without additional clutter.

I agree with you completely about not having to work around features. For me its been a recurring issue since Vista.

After my P4 self build(almost 10 years old) was really reaching the end of its usefulness I took a chance on a pre-built that lasted me a few years. It was a Gateway FX7026. For store bought it was rock solid out of box except for Vista 64. For those years I found myself doing the same with a number of softwares from XP. Ironically enough I updated it to 7 and then found myself looking for drivers for some of the MOBO components that didn't officially exist. Solved one problem only to create another. Shortly after I began the 2600k build. I went through similar issues after installing 10 in the MSI laptop but worked around them.

 

[ledhead11]

I think a real question any user, new or old, should ask is:

Do I want my new hardware to run 10 year old software or am I more concerned about my 10 year old hardware running new software?

 

[chicofehr]

WSUS Offline

http://download.wsusoffline.net/

 

[krisnadii]

Win 10 suck in my experience, its not any faster than windows 8.1, yet it ate more ram, also it crashed several times in less than a month of install... not to mention to tweak things in it require convoluted file ownership / admin / privilege system... heck linux does this much better with SUDO command... wtf windows... i logged in as admin, why cant i admin stuff for real!!!
AND my old game wouldn't run properly anymore. Let me tell you Win 8.1 is awesome in comparison to win 10.

 

[sadsteve]

I keep hearing win 10 isn't as good as it could have been, but all you really have against it is that you don't need to be a programmer with a doctorate to make it do what you want. You're an elitist. FACT is that most people who have a choice on operating system are gaming with it. FACT is that windows is still more prevalent for games than ever, and as such most developers will make games for it. Games run. No third party app to make them work. No screwing around with the terminal. They work. You want it to run your old x386 games fluidly, ya, you're in trouble. Get with the times. Old machine to run old games, new machine to run new games. Every bad thing you've mentioned about 10 is easily remedied with a little effort, and most everything is pretty well documented so it's easy to fix. Network on my machine, 0/0 unless I'm on a webpage or downloading. Easy peasey.

I've been dual booting Windows 10 and Mint Linux for about a year now. Mint Linux required way less 'massaging' to get things working the way I want than Windows 10. About the only thing I had to do for Mint Linux was to manually download the driver for my Brother multifunction printer. No sifting through multiple pages of settings to minimize tracking, no invasive digital assistant to turn off, a non-flat UI, no forced updates, etc. The only real issue is that Linux gaming is still behind Windows gaming. Only about a third of my steam games are available for Linux. So, Windows 10 is now only run when I want to play a game. All my general computing is done in Linux now.

 

[razor512]

There is one area which tends to put many average users off of linux. I have tried to get some users who constantly get their PC loaded with malware, to use a linux distro (tried ubuntu, and linux mint), and it always failed because even though they were aware they were ruining their windows install very quickly, their needs weren't so basic that they could get by with just a web browser and an office application.

Distros such as ubuntu have made good progress in making things more user friendly, but the moment you venture outside of the walled garden of their app store, the complexity skyrockets. It is not like with windows where there are hundreds of layers of complexity where the user can gradually go to a level that is comfortable for them, in the major linux distros, you are in the basic and user friendly app store, or deep into CLI.
The CLI reliance is where things fall apart. The moment something outside of the app store, where there is no installer available, the user is stuck with a frustrating experience with a high failure rate if a set of instructions are for a slightly different version of the OS. For example, you may see a tar.gz package, and find that someone posted a set of instructions to install and get it working on ubuntu (or whatever distro you are using), then having to use a text editor like nano to edit a few of the files, then doing a bunch more commands, only to end up at step 15 and get tons of errors because because the instructions were based on ubuntuu 14.04 and you have 16.04 and due to differences in some of the newer versions of some of the dependencies, the old set of commands will not work, but if you do not have a deeper understanding of those other packages, then getting things working will be an uphill battle.

Overall, this is the primary point where people give up on linux. They try a distro, and things start off great, but they run into an issue, or find that they need to use some peripheral that the OS does not simply detect and just work, and that the software center lacks anything for, thus they google for it, find instructions that fail part way through because they have a newer version of the OS, or one of the dozen dependencies needs to be downgraded to an older version but there is no telling which.

Outside of that, I do have one family friend on ubuntu, and that person would likely be perfectly fine with the chrome OS since they pretty much only ever use the web browser, but for those with more needs, sooner or later, they find a limit to the software center, and end up in tar.gz hell.

 

[randomizer]

The OS support they talk about is continuing to provide security updates and fixes for critical issues. It doesn't include providing support for new hardware.

Windows 7 reaches end of support in January 2020. Windows 8 in January 2023.

Windows 8.1 is currently in the same support phase as Windows 10 but is being treated differently. That is the only issue I have with this. I am not at all concerned about Windows 7 not having support for new hardware because it is in the Extended Support phase. However, it's unforgivable that Windows 8.1 is not receiving full support until Mainstream Support ends in Jan 2018. After that date it doesn't matter. Right now nobody can have any confidence in how long Microsoft plans to support their software because they readily redefine Mainstream Support when it's convenient for them.

 

[peterf28]

i went 100% linux . gaming is limited, but there are so many good old games worth playing thru wine . iam not missing really anything from windows .

 

[Doggie314]

My message to MS. F. you and btw there are other ways to get updates 😉 Again my message to MS. clear and loud f. you and i will never install your pile of crap called Win10 which is btw f. epic failure as only 25% of total Windows Machine have installed it. And again f. you MS. Btw...MS thinks they will force people to Win10 pile of crap by doing this shit...ain't going to f. happen.

glad its not just me that cant dig 10

 

[Serban13]

Lots of dinosaurs. If you are unable to install and set up a Windows 10 OS don't blame it on MS. I recommend going back to Windows XP or Windows 3.1, as it was much easier to understand for you dinosaurs.

 

[Dosflores]

It works, and if I get an issue i look into fixing it. Let's not forget to take SOME responsibility for our computers such as scheduling automated BACKUPS (I.e. Acronis True Image) and spend more than five minutes learning how to navigate it.

It's funny that you're using that argument for Windows 10, instead of Linux. It can be perfectly applied to user-friendly Linux distros, too.

Ubuntu's GUI is simpler than both Windows 10 and macOS's. It's an OS much harder to break. And the average user needs to learn just two (optional) CLI commands:

sudo apt-get install NAME_OF_APPLICATION (to easily install a new application)
sudo apt-get update (to update applications that have been installed this way)

If an average user finds they need to learn another CLI command, then Linux is not for them.

Linux's greatest weakness is its lack of plug-and-play hardware support. If a given distro doesn't support all your hardware out of the box, it's not going to be a smooth experience.

Anyway, this is not a Linux-exclusive problem: it's present in every OS except for Windows. You can't expect OS X Mountain Lion to work on the latest MacBook Pro; you can't expect iOS 6 to work on an iPhone 7; you can't expect Android 4 to work on a Galaxy S7. Why would anyone expect Microsoft to make sure Windows 7 supports every new CPU arquitecture ever to be released?

 

[Gildas]

My mITX Win1700 is on hold...
It was intended to run older CFD programs (provided by an Uni) that are still very capable.
These programs scale well on multi core CPUs but an 8/10 core Intel was out of my price range.
So I'm back to the drawing board!

 

[Achaios]

I am sure there's a way around this.

Pretty sure I won't install Windows 10 no matter what.

 

[Achaios]

Watch the following video from "Barnacules", former M$ employee for 15 years on the OS's team, explaining how M$ claims about how the new CPU's are "unsupported" are false, because all CPU's are still X86 or X64 based, and the OS is just coded to support CPU's on a very basic level anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5mFI9spp10

 

[J_E_D_70]

Intriguing. I run 10 on a desktop and very old laptop and it's fine for both. Most folks where I work upgraded to 10, have not had issues, and like it. Guess everyone gets an opinion.

I'm sure there are folks out there that pine for Windows for Workgroups.

 

[wirefire]

The problem here is very haphazard support cycles. For example with a MAC you can install an OS 10.12 for example. you will get ALL the updates for 10.12 while it is in its lifecycle. I know a MAC is a whole different ballgame but I am speaking to the support cycle design and not to the company as a whole.

XP ran on pretty much anything you could install it on. There was no CPU / Platform exclusivity in that OS. No blocking of updates. Windows 7 is one thing with its "extended" support. I understand that they do not have to patch the OS for the new CPU but they should not block patches to people who CHOOSE to install it on unsupported hardware. Wasn't that part of their argument for everyone getting windows 10, and the subsequent windows 10 update model, systems without updates have security issues and present problems for the user experience. So what does Microsoft do, cut off all the updates... makes sense. Kabby lake doesn't make much sense. It is just a revamped skylake, there is little if anything changed in intel designs over the last several years. If Intel chooses to not write drivers for windows 7 for the HD630, That is Intel's prerogative as it is a new product. Ryzen is a whole different story.

If Microsoft wants to limit installations to certain CPU types it should be in the installation media itself. Not crippling users by their inability to install updates to their PC.

 

[Dosflores]

The problem here is very haphazard support cycles. For example with a MAC you can install an OS 10.12 for example. you will get ALL the updates for 10.12 while it is in its lifecycle.

Are you saying Apple support cycles cannot be considered haphazard?

There isn't any statement about how long 10.12's lifecycle will be. Apple's support policy for both hardware and software is simple: "each product is supported for as long as Apple wants".

Apple expects you to always install the latest version of their OSs, because they're better than older versions (which is mostly true). Microsoft expects the same. Well, if you've got a Windows 10 PC, Microsoft actually forces you to always install the latest version of Windows 10, via automatic updates.

Apple supports installing 10.12 on an old Mac, but they don't support installing 10.11 on a brand-new MacBook Pro. Microsoft is now doing the exact same thing.

 

[Nintendork]

If you want to upgrade to Ryzen, just download some win7 updates from MSFT site and keep them in a folder for any new win7 sp1 instal you want.

Just ignore the security updates (just download the ones from 2015 pre Win10 spyware), waste of install space.

 

[johnbl]

Seems reasonable, why would they add new features to a old legacy OS.

 

[blazorthon]

"Neither was made with current generation processors in mind"

Does anybody know what actual features of the new processors make it difficult/expensive to actually allow installation of win7 on the new processors?
They are supposed to be fully backward compatible , I have not done any assembler or low level programing for years so I am out of that particular loop. I am just interested.

It's pretty much just bullcrap. When you compare Intel's CPUs across generations back to Sandy Bridge, almost nothing has changed. Even the cache configuration is the same, so there isn't really any differences in optimizations to be made. When you look at CPU "drivers", they haven't changed since the day the OS for them came out. Install Win 7 on a Ryzen or Kaby Lake system and I bet you it still says 2006 on the driver version, or 2009 for Windows 8.

 

[blazorthon]

I am wondering what would happen if you download updates manually and install them?

You may need to tweak them to get them to behave or force them to install using cmd, but it should work because the CPU model has practically nothing to do with almost all Windows updates (just always lookup on the knowledge base what the update actually does, which is a good habit regardless if you have the time). Microsoft is just saying that if you use an older CPU, they don't want to let you update, which is hilarious in hindsight because they kept pushing windows 8.1 and windows 10 onto systems that didn't even have audio/network/graphics/etc. drivers for them, especially OEM laptops, causing a whole mess of problems.