Mobile GeForce GTX Graphics: Model Inflation Gone Awry

[Annisman]

I'm so glad somebody finally called out Nvidia on their dirty rename scheme, at the same time, anybody who searches the web for reviews on a product before they buy it will no doubtedly realize something is wrong.

 

[bpdski]

I think that Nvidia is crossing the line here into deceptive advertising and I would not be too surprised to see them in a class action lawsuit in the near future because of it.

I had a laptop at work once that happened to come with 7600 mobile graphics. I knew it wasn't going to perform like a 7600 desktop card, but it was pretty close actually. With naming like this, there is absolutely no way for the consumer to know that they are getting something different unless they read a Tech site like this which only enthusiasts even know about. I'm very disappointed to see this from a company that otherwise makes good products and it will definitely influence my future purchases.

 

[apmyhr]

Great article. I already knew that laptop graphics don't match their desktop counterparts, but I had no idea that Nvidia mobile graphics arent even of the same architecture that their name suggests. In my opinion, this is missleading at best and complete lieing at worse.

 

[avericia]

Pei-chen
"All you have to remember is that GTX 280 > GTX 260 > GTS 260 and you know how much you want to spend."

Some people actually want to know what they are getting so they get the best performance for their money. Naming a g92 (8800gtx) based product gtx280m is only an attempt to trick people into thinking they are buying a product based off the gtx260/280 series chips architecture which is a complete lie.

I still love my sli 260s on my desktop but whew that's one sleezy naming convension for nvidias mobile line up

 

[nukemaster]

[citation][nom]avericia[/nom]Naming a g92 (8800gtx) based product gtx280m is only an attempt to trick people into thinking they are buying a product based off the gtx260/280 series chips architecture which is a complete lie.[/citation]
The G92 was the 8800GTS 512. A card it self that should have been a 8850GTS(maybe 8800GTS v2) or something since it added confusion to the 8800GTS 512 being faster then the 8800GTS 640. But, yes same point.[citation][nom]BigMack70[/nom]Since when did 40 fps average become "playable"? I'm happy with 25-30 fps average to be considered "playable" provided it's not erratically dropping into the teens. 40fps+ average is only needed in terms of playability for multiplayer in my opinion. To me anything 40+ looks smooth.[/citation]
To each there own, under 50 starts to feel jumpy to me(i can feel the drop from 60 to 55), but your are right its more about constant fps then high for most people.

Good article Toms.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Clarifying Criticism

In discussing with Nvidia about this impending editorial, the company expressed an understanding that enthusiasts might object to its naming convention. But it isn’t the power users we’re worried about. Rather, it’s the mainstream folks who know enough to recognize GeForce GTX 280 or Radeon HD 4850, but not enough to realize that the underlying technology is completely different, or that a loss in clock speed gives the graphics solution different performance attributes.

OK, nice to include ATI in a roundabout way of both. Clarify this better. nVidia is guilty og both clocks and not even having the named arch as being so. Id just keep the 2 as seperate as possible, concerning the 2 vendors, as one is common going from DT to mobile, and actually expected, which is the case for ATI, whereas making claims of a mobile part having the arch of the DT part as nVidia does, is almost lible for lawsuits, besides the expected downclocking

 

[chaohsiangchen]

Now I know why there is totally lack of progress on external PCIe graphics solution for laptops. The companies involve either don't want other to succeed (Intel), have the tech, but don't want to give up lucrative business with overpriced products (NVIDIA), or simply chose not to pursuit that route in order to maintain pricing power (AMD/ATI). Damn you all!

 

[cangelini]

[citation][nom]jaydeejohn[/nom]OK, nice to include ATI in a roundabout way of both. Clarify this better. nVidia is guilty og both clocks and not even having the named arch as being so. Id just keep the 2 as seperate as possible, concerning the 2 vendors, as one is common going from DT to mobile, and actually expected, which is the case for ATI, whereas making claims of a mobile part having the arch of the DT part as nVidia does, is almost lible for lawsuits, besides the expected downclocking[/citation]

What do you need further clarification on? Why keep them separate? They're directly related.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

One being an arch difference , isnt the same as whats commonly seen going from DT to mobile, which is primarily clocks.
Seeing th the differing clocks is somewhat acceptable, whereas, a total different arch is not. The performance is always going to sway to the DT variant, thats a no brainer, but saying its something its not, as in a 280 having anything to do with the 280m, thats open for a legal discussion, and not in nVidias favor, just going by precedence alone, which again, is accepted as the norm. Naming ones gfx card in YOUR (nVidia/ATI) particular power rankings has little to do with the actual parts used, but if youre hoping for some realiability in the future, dont hang one on the folks by using a different arch, and saying one is close to the other just isnt so.
So, in all fairness, using a downclocked card is seen as the norm, as in ATI's case, as well as in some of nVidias, but to lump it all together, and nVidia using a differently named arch just isnt right, as one has been accepted, while the other transcends to , like I said, a libelous scenario

 

[joey_sfb]

Damn you Nvidia!!! You have managed to piss me off again!!! The nerve to call a G80 design, GTX280M when its not where near GTX at all....

 

[knutjb]

Nvidia can't help themselves, they have a good mobile chip but manage to call it what it's not which is extraordinarily deceptive, if not fraudulent.

Suggesting ATI is doing the same thing as Nvidia is disingenuous at best. ATI is using the same architecture as their desktop just at reduced clock speeds, that is not misleading. Performance is very close for ATI and a world apart for Nvidia.

No one has been successful at integrating high end desktop performance in a laptop package. Those that tried created excellent laptop room heaters.

 

[megamanx00]

Well, the G200 is twice as big as the G92, so they can't exactly put even the cut down G260 into a laptop. Considering the power requirements they would also have to run pretty slow so they probably wouldn't provide enough extra performance (over the "280M") to justify the extra expense. It makes sense, but really they should have called it the GTS 245M or GTS 250M. Now if they sold it as two G92 chips in SLI then they could bill it as a 280M or something.

 

[Pei-chen]

Darn, it appears most of you never heard of marketing.

 

[kato128]

I don't think there's an issue with the naming. a GTX 280M is a different part to a GTX 280. They quite clearly state its a "mobile" or "mobility" video chip. Thinking your getting a desktop product in this case is like mistaking a GTX 260+ for a GTX 260. Don't read the name properly its your own fault.
The real problem is that there is little to no coverage of mobile graphics chips in review sites. So a heck of a lot of people who want info can't actually find it for any of the advertised video cards. Now I know laptops aren't all equal and its hard to do benches on the vid cards coz they can't be swapped. But I don't think that needs much more effort than running a ln2 cooling setup which you guys seem to do every couple of months.

 

[Guest]

Hmm... sounds to me like I did the right thing when getting my desktop replacement from Sager. I did score 15000 on 3dMark06 with a Q9650, 2 x 9800M GT and 4 GB RAM. The GTX280M doesnt look like much of an upgrade vs a 9800M GTX or a 9800M GT for that matter. Looking at those FPS scores I have certainly gotten better numbers with my laptop although Crysis is undoubtly unplayable on high details at native resolution but I get around 40 FPS average at 1440x900 with almost everything on very high, and it seems to me the reason I wont get better numbers is there simply isnt enough video memory with 512 MB on these cards. Still I got my laptop to use as a mobile recording/mixing tool not for gaming (although I did throw in the SLI setup to game every now and then) and it has yet to fail me at that. Yet, I would like to warn people that nVidia`s mobile GPUs are far from reliable as one of mine has simply gone bad while idling and had to be RMAed and I have seen at least 20 other laptops with nVidia GPUs go bad in less than a year after being purchased.

 

[da bahstid]

Here's a wild idea: include an "n" after the name of whatever model it is. You know, like 4850n or 8800GTSn to denote notebook equivalents of desktop architectures.

...NAW...not deceptive enough marketing.

Here's maybe a more feasible idea: ATI fanboys go to town about how even ATI's humble 4850 can be overclocked past NVidia's flagship single-gpu GTX-280.

 

[kato128]

[citation][nom]da bahstid[/nom]Here's a wild idea: include an "n" after the name of whatever model it is. You know, like 4850n or 8800GTSn to denote notebook equivalents of desktop architectures....NAW...not deceptive enough marketing.Here's maybe a more feasible idea: ATI fanboys go to town about how even ATI's humble 4850 can be overclocked past NVidia's flagship single-gpu GTX-280.[/citation]

Uh actually that's what they do. GTX 280m is the review subject and ATI calls their chips "mobility radeon".

 

[lcsper]

\[citation][nom]chaohsiangchen[/nom]Now I know why there is totally lack of progress on external PCIe graphics solution for laptops. The companies involve either don't want other to succeed (Intel), have the tech, but don't want to give up lucrative business with overpriced products (NVIDIA), or simply chose not to pursuit that route in order to maintain pricing power (AMD/ATI). Damn you all![/citation]
On a side note, having opened up my DC901C from Sager there is more than enough space there to fit a desktop GPU in the same space and the sheer amount of fans and copper heatsinks in this thing should be enough to cool a desktop GPU. Having said that, power would still be an issue, maybe if they included a hybrid SLI option which would use the integrated GPU on battery power turning off the fullblown GPU and turning it back on when power was plugged in it would be a viable option. Obviously you can't just stick in a desktop card in there but converting a PCI-E card to MXM shouldn't be any problem for vendors.

 

[Guest]

MARKETING = POLITICALLY CORRECT WORD FOR MASS MANIPULATION

Nvidia is the enemy here. Enemy of the truth. Enemy of the people they try to sell their crap to.

Of course the average clueless customer will fall for GTX 280M as having the exact same power as the GTX 280. 1 puny single letter difference for 2 completely different product. What do you think Nvidia's marketing staff is paid for? As they have just irrefutably demonstrated: To screw you as deep as they can.

It's beyond devious or perverse, it's immoral and corrupted. I can't be nice about this. Nvidia arrogance has no limit, now I'm sure of it. However, if this case ever reach the court of justice for false representation and advertisement, the evidences being so "annoyingly in your face that it's an insult to your intelligence", the judge will have no choice but to crush Nvidia. Good for them.... This kind of attitude and behavior from a major corporation shall not be tolerated in our society.

Can't wait to read the follow-up of this story in the coming weeks/months right here at Tom Hardware. I'll be watching.

Bless you Tom, the truth always win.

Ramon Zarat.

 

[B-Unit]

[citation][nom]cangelini[/nom]What do you need further clarification on? Why keep them separate? They're directly related.[/citation]
This has to be a bad joke...

A lower clocked version of the 4850 being called 'Mobility 4850' is worlds different from calling a lower clocked GTS250 a 'GTX280M'.

If you cant appreciate that, you have NO business editing a tech site. Period.

 

[cangelini]

[citation][nom]B-Unit[/nom]This has to be a bad joke...A lower clocked version of the 4850 being called 'Mobility 4850' is worlds different from calling a lower clocked GTS250 a 'GTX280M'.If you cant appreciate that, you have NO business editing a tech site. Period.[/citation]

The information is provided in the story. Nothing is missing. Perhaps you don't understand what clarification means? Worlds different how? In principle? In the real-world? We're trying to save real consumers real money by talking about performance, and the fact of the matter is that both companies give up performance while drawing parallels to faster desktop products to make the under-informed make assumptions about speed.

Bottom line: both companies are in the wrong, and ATI calling it's Mobility Radeon HD 4850 by that name is all the impetus Nvidia needs to call it's FASTER mobile solution a GeForce GTX 260M or 280M, regardless of what architecture is under the hood.

Seems like common sense. You don't happen to work for ATI do you?

 

[matt87_50]

wow, i always thought it was like a generally slower system thing (ram, chipsets, busses ect) that led to the slower performance, but it really is just the gfx card. good article!

 

[joey_sfb]

'But it isn’t the power users we’re worried about. Rather, it’s the mainstream folks who know enough to recognize GeForce GTX 280 or Radeon HD 4850, but not enough to realize that the underlying technology is completely different, or that a loss in clock speed gives the graphics solution different performance attributes.'

Leave it to us to spread the words.

 

[joey_sfb]

The bottom line is the price, my willingness to pay a certain amount for 8800GTS mobile is different from a true GTX280M. Nvidia's know that and use it to trick me into thinking i buying a GTX280M where in truth its only a 8800GTS mobile..... Damn you, Nvidia!!! You will never get my sale and my recommendation!!!

[citation][nom]cangelini[/nom]The information is provided in the story. Nothing is missing. Perhaps you don't understand what clarification means? Worlds different how? In principle? In the real-world? We're trying to save real consumers real money by talking about performance, and the fact of the matter is that both companies give up performance while drawing parallels to faster desktop products to make the under-informed make assumptions about speed.Bottom line: both companies are in the wrong, and ATI calling it's Mobility Radeon HD 4850 by that name is all the impetus Nvidia needs to call it's FASTER mobile solution a GeForce GTX 260M or 280M, regardless of what architecture is under the hood. Seems like common sense. You don't happen to work for ATI do you?[/citation]

 

[anamaniac]

Interesting.

A while back I remember coming across a dekstop replacement laptop. i7 at 2.0GHz, and 2x 4870 mobile. The thing had 30 minutes of juice even on its beast of a battery while gaming. For somebody like me, that sounds about perfect. I don't need to use something while travelling, buy a laptop is nice because then I can relax anywere I want and bring it with me.

The only Nvidia product I want it is the damed EVGA hydrocopper...