Mobo for the Pentium D 805

[linux_0]

Paul - I'm also going from p478 3.0. I think this will be quite an upgrade eventhough I'll be keeping about the same clock speed. I also upgrade in the 12-24 month range. I think this will be a good purchase cause I can justify dumping a bit more into the video card due to the relatively low price of the cpu.

Somban

I think upgrading from a P478 3.0 to a Socket 775 Pentium D 805 is a HORRIBLE idea... that's almost a lateral "upgrade" and it's made even worse if the board you buy isn't Conroe compatible... yes, I have a dual-core laptop and a dual-core desktop at home and I love them both, but that just doesn't seem to be an upgrade that is worth the money... will it be faster? Sure, a little... but christ at what cost?!?


I agree, it would cost a fortune and performance may actually degrade for some apps rather than improve.

Do not buy into the hype wait a little while for the new batch of CPUs to hit the market.

 

[rodney_ws]

Amen brother! As far a performance drop... it sounds like you're going to be OC'n the 805 so odds are it'll clock higher than your existing P4 so I wouldn't really expect a performance drop if that's the case... still... unless you're using multithreaded applications (or just have a ton of spyware running) I'm not sure you'd be able to tell the difference between the two processors... you'd TELL yousrelf you could sense a difference, but that would just the logical side of your brain trying to help you rationalize that purchase.

Either aim higher or don't upgrade just yet.

 

[zoglog]

wait a second, I have a socket 478 P4 3.2 Ghz prescott and I asked this exact same question and almost everyone told me to upgrade to the 805 becuse I have the worst processor ever?!

 

[PaulC2K]

I've gone from s478 3.0ghz to the 805, theres a couple of reasons behind it, and they seem to have been ignored.

1 - Costs.
Exactly how much is a semi decent Conroe/AM2 chip going to cost? $400 did you say? I think i'll pass thanks.

2 - Multi-tasking.
Maybe its a 0.4ghz step back at standard speeds, but even with stock cooling and running a single application, im going to expecting 3.4-3.8ghz if i want to let the juices flow.

3 - The future.
At the moment, 95% of people with a s478 chip in there machine are like myself, currently stuck with AGP graphics, DDR memory, and the fantastic s478 cpu range to chose from. Taking this supposedly expensive and pointless upgrade means i dont waste £300 on a CPU which right now is teetering on the edge of the next phase of CPUs, instead it means maybe i waste £80 on a cr*p CPU, £150 on a short-lived Mobo (is the Asus P5WD2's future compatable? not arsed really, wanted an AMD tbh!) but the PCI-E card will be fine, the 2gb DDR2-800 will be fine.

4 - Worth in 6 months.
In 6 months time, if i decide to upgrade, say i throw that D805 straight in the bin, thats £80 binned. You wouldnt lose that little selling a decent chip 2nd hand if it was only 1 month old!


Lets be honest, it might be a budget chip, and it might not be the fastest thing the worlds seen and we may well be on the edge of CPU greatness of which the world has never seen before.... but i cant afford to pay for all that, a decent mobo to justify the CPU, decent memory to partner it, and a decent GFX card to go kick some ass while gaming.
For me, this little overclocking secret came at a perfect time (to the day by chance), any upgrade was going to be expensive, just going with a new GFX card meant buying a new Mobo, and who'd spend £300/$500 on decent card while chugging along with a s478 as the workhorse!

If i was on an PCI-E board already, then maybe i'd have reconsidered things, but throwing £50/$80 on a bargin basement s478 mobo just to upgrade GFX, and then getting another Mobo when i get a new CPU months later.... its equally wasteful.


For myself, im running dual screen, and before that i had the taskbar doubled up and filled with apps all running away, now with the temptation of 2 screens to fill, i'll have Photoshop running on one side, DW on the other, Outlook brought up every few minutes answering emails, and browser windows popping up to check coding progress. So DC has been needed for a while, and the fact that TH posted this peice has meant that i've been able to purchase ALL the items i wanted without having to budget for things, good quality memory, x1900XTX, TTask Armor case, new HDs to switch to Raid5, and a capable CPU in the middle running its little socks off. Maybe it doesnt have a long lifespan, but then what does in the computing world these days??

 

[zoglog]

I've gone from s478 3.0ghz to the 805, theres a couple of reasons behind it, and they seem to have been ignored.

1 - Costs.
Exactly how much is a semi decent Conroe/AM2 chip going to cost? $400 did you say? I think i'll pass thanks.

2 - Multi-tasking.
Maybe its a 0.4ghz step back at standard speeds, but even with stock cooling and running a single application, im going to expecting 3.4-3.8ghz if i want to let the juices flow.

3 - The future.
At the moment, 95% of people with a s478 chip in there machine are like myself, currently stuck with AGP graphics, DDR memory, and the fantastic s478 cpu range to chose from. Taking this supposedly expensive and pointless upgrade means i dont waste £300 on a CPU which right now is teetering on the edge of the next phase of CPUs, instead it means maybe i waste £80 on a cr*p CPU, £150 on a short-lived Mobo (is the Asus P5WD2's future compatable? not arsed really, wanted an AMD tbh!) but the PCI-E card will be fine, the 2gb DDR2-800 will be fine.

4 - Worth in 6 months.
In 6 months time, if i decide to upgrade, say i throw that D805 straight in the bin, thats £80 binned. You wouldnt lose that little selling a decent chip 2nd hand if it was only 1 month old!


Lets be honest, it might be a budget chip, and it might not be the fastest thing the worlds seen and we may well be on the edge of CPU greatness of which the world has never seen before.... but i cant afford to pay for all that, a decent mobo to justify the CPU, decent memory to partner it, and a decent GFX card to go kick some ass while gaming.
For me, this little overclocking secret came at a perfect time (to the day by chance), any upgrade was going to be expensive, just going with a new GFX card meant buying a new Mobo, and who'd spend £300/$500 on decent card while chugging along with a s478 as the workhorse!

If i was on an PCI-E board already, then maybe i'd have reconsidered things, but throwing £50/$80 on a bargin basement s478 mobo just to upgrade GFX, and then getting another Mobo when i get a new CPU months later.... its equally wasteful.


For myself, im running dual screen, and before that i had the taskbar doubled up and filled with apps all running away, now with the temptation of 2 screens to fill, i'll have Photoshop running on one side, DW on the other, Outlook brought up every few minutes answering emails, and browser windows popping up to check coding progress. So DC has been needed for a while, and the fact that TH posted this peice has meant that i've been able to purchase ALL the items i wanted without having to budget for things, good quality memory, x1900XTX, TTask Armor case, new HDs to switch to Raid5, and a capable CPU in the middle running its little socks off. Maybe it doesnt have a long lifespan, but then what does in the computing world these days??

Thanks for the perspective. I'm still on the fence about this. I think my current concern is with waiting for DX10 cards. I was planning on getting a 7900GT and calculating all the costs I reached a tottal of around 600-700 dollars for all the components I'd need to make the siwtch. I would indeed be going from 1 GB of DDR 400mhz ram to 2GB of DDR2 667mhz. Not to mention the heat problems with the prescott. I'm sure I would ge tthe same idle temps of my prescott (49-55 deg) in the new system. In addition I just won an Antec P180 case which I have yet to use. but the whole reliability of the overclock and the DX10 cards in the future have me wondering if I should wait for conroe.

 

[linux_0]

Problem is if you get an 805 you will have to spend at least $200 on a good motherboard and a small fortune on DDR2-667 which barely performs any better than DDR-400 and there is no way to tell if your shinny new board is going to support any of the new CPUs even if it is a 975X.

So your costs would be:

$236+ 975X board

$172 on 2GB DDR2-675 PC2-5400

$130 805

$200+ PCI-Express VGA

$738 Total for hardware assuming the rest of your parts will be able handle the 805's power requirements and the new VGA

$100+ for a PSU if they can't and you're up to $838+

$60+ for a Zalman cooler or better

or

$200-$600 for H2O or other extreme cooling

Total $1038 - $1438 if you don't use air, $898 if you do

Now add an extra $20-$120 / mo in energy costs ( 805 + VGA + AC ) depending on how often you run it and if you OC or not and you can see the 805 is not as good a deal as you might think

 

[PaulC2K]

So your saying for the difference of roughly $750 to $900 i could have the same kit but with a Conroe or something?

Baring in mind that of the 805 items, $360 was spent on the actual items were talking about here, the CPU and the mobo to stick it in. for an extra $150 ($510) i could have a decent Mobo and an entry level Conroe/AM2 system?
I know what the US prices are like, and im only too aware of the UK prices, and neither of are likely to be able to handle the cost of an entry level Conroe/Am2 with even a budget Mobo. So what, jack it up another $100?
Then i dont really want a $200 GFX, i was kinda thinking of something better than my current card, so add another $250... i just dont have all this money to have everything just perfect.

I need something i can work with 8-16 hours a day and on the rare occasion i get to have a play, something capable in the likes of BF2 and whatever else makes an appearance in 2006.

I've already spent a fortune on an X-Fi Fat, Enermax 600 PSU and a few basic things like decent quality fans to replace the ones in the Armor which arrived today (as good as the standards probably are, i dont want blue - thats dealt with in another thread though!) and i'd left myself with the final 4 peices (+ case) needed, the Mobo, CPU, Ram and GFX and those need to fit into a budget, and this has done nicely.

Maybe theres better CPUs coming soon and had i waited and spent another $200-300 i could have had something naturally as fast as the 805 can go, but my income doesnt allow me to do that, i get *tiny* amounts each month barely covering CC bills, and when it rains it pours, i'd been paid for a job the day of the report, and that cheque wasnt going to cover exactly what i wanted. I could have bought the x1900xt instead of wasting $50 on an 'x' and i could have bought 'value' grade memory, and i could have bought a bog standard mobo and whenever the new chips arrived in the UK with an absolutely shocking pricetag on them, maybe i could have afforded one, i dont have a set wage so i cant save $100-200 from each to make up the difference.

I guess there were 2 choices, skimp on everything to get a good CPU, or clock the cr*p out of a budget CPU more than capable of doing work on it and when i get the chance to do some gaming, ive got the gear to back it up and CPUs are playing less and less of a part as the days go by.

What ive 'wasted' money on cost £100/$190 and that wouldnt even get me the AMD x2 3800+ chip let alone something that i was aiming to get (4400+ onwards).

The daftest thing is, i dunno if anyone else making this little step backwards has noticed, but right now the s478 3.0ghz is about 50% more expensive than the D805 2.66ghz. The chip im running costs about as much as i actually wanted to spend on a new processor!! so thats the sort of pricing i had in my head for a CPU, but obviously the market disagrees with what i can get for that much, and i had to look to spend more... until the D 805 anyway.

 

[linux_0]

So your saying for the difference of roughly $750 to $900 i could have the same kit but with a Conroe or something?

Baring in mind that of the 805 items, $360 was spent on the actual items were talking about here, the CPU and the mobo to stick it in. for an extra $150 ($510) i could have a decent Mobo and an entry level Conroe/AM2 system?
I know what the US prices are like, and im only too aware of the UK prices, and neither of are likely to be able to handle the cost of an entry level Conroe/Am2 with even a budget Mobo. So what, jack it up another $100?
Then i dont really want a $200 GFX, i was kinda thinking of something better than my current card, so add another $250... i just dont have all this money to have everything just perfect.

I need something i can work with 8-16 hours a day and on the rare occasion i get to have a play, something capable in the likes of BF2 and whatever else makes an appearance in 2006.

I've already spent a fortune on an X-Fi Fat, Enermax 600 PSU and a few basic things like decent quality fans to replace the ones in the Armor which arrived today (as good as the standards probably are, i dont want blue - thats dealt with in another thread though!) and i'd left myself with the final 4 peices (+ case) needed, the Mobo, CPU, Ram and GFX and those need to fit into a budget, and this has done nicely.

Maybe theres better CPUs coming soon and had i waited and spent another $200-300 i could have had something naturally as fast as the 805 can go, but my income doesnt allow me to do that, i get *tiny* amounts each month barely covering CC bills, and when it rains it pours, i'd been paid for a job the day of the report, and that cheque wasnt going to cover exactly what i wanted. I could have bought the x1900xt instead of wasting $50 on an 'x' and i could have bought 'value' grade memory, and i could have bought a bog standard mobo and whenever the new chips arrived in the UK with an absolutely shocking pricetag on them, maybe i could have afforded one, i dont have a set wage so i cant save $100-200 from each to make up the difference.

I guess there were 2 choices, skimp on everything to get a good CPU, or clock the cr*p out of a budget CPU more than capable of doing work on it and when i get the chance to do some gaming, ive got the gear to back it up and CPUs are playing less and less of a part as the days go by.

What ive 'wasted' money on cost £100/$190 and that wouldnt even get me the AMD x2 3800+ chip let alone something that i was aiming to get (4400+ onwards).

The daftest thing is, i dunno if anyone else making this little step backwards has noticed, but right now the s478 3.0ghz is about 50% more expensive than the D805 2.66ghz. The chip im running costs about as much as i actually wanted to spend on a new processor!! so thats the sort of pricing i had in my head for a CPU, but obviously the market disagrees with what i can get for that much, and i had to look to spend more... until the D 805 anyway.

My point is the 805 gives the illusion of being a good deal. It is not as good a deal as people might think!

Do not buy the hype!

 

[zoglog]

My point is the 805 gives the illusion of being a good deal. It is not as good a deal as people might think!

Do not buy the hype!

Now you people are just tugging me from both sides . I see what you mean, but those benchmarks @3.8 Ghz on the article were not too shabby. I think my main cause for concern is that Quake 4 runs choppy on my PC. with dual core I could take advantage of multithreading as well as upgrade my 6800 OC to something PCI express.

 

[BobVila]

Linux_0,

i'm going to try this with an inexpensive motherboard and see how it works out... then we'll really see if it's gonna be more cost effective than buying a more expensive faster chip. here's the rig i'm gonna put together (all from newegg):

parts dependant on CPU:
$129 - Pentium D 805
$ 90 - ASUS P5ND2-SLI
$101 - CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR2 675 (PC2 5400)
$ 64 - ZALMAN CNPS9500
$384

stuff i'm getting regardless of CPU:
$ 50 - ePOWER EP-500XP ATX12V/ EPS12V 500W Power Supply
$174 - Tyris T701DB Black 17" 8ms DVI LCD Monitor
$490 - SAPPHIRE 100150 Radeon X1900XTX 512MB
$714

note that i needed a new PSU anyway. my old one is only 350W + it's causing other problems. maybe i should go with 600W? dunno about that yet. I saw someone else in this thread said they had this mobo and it worked fine for OC'ing the 805. So, assuming this whole thing works out and i can OC to 3.8 (my goal), then wouldn't you say that the performance I'll be getting is a "good deal"? i'm not going to be able to get a better chip /board/memory combo for $384 anywhere. and if i'm wrong, i'd really like to know.

 

[linux_0]

Linux_0,

i'm going to try this with an inexpensive motherboard and see how it works out... then we'll really see if it's gonna be more cost effective than buying a more expensive faster chip. here's the rig i'm gonna put together (all from newegg):

parts dependant on CPU:
$129 - Pentium D 805
$ 90 - ASUS P5ND2-SLI
$101 - CORSAIR XMS 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR2 675 (PC2 5400)
$ 64 - ZALMAN CNPS9500
$384

stuff i'm getting regardless of CPU:
$ 50 - ePOWER EP-500XP ATX12V/ EPS12V 500W Power Supply
$174 - Tyris T701DB Black 17" 8ms DVI LCD Monitor
$490 - SAPPHIRE 100150 Radeon X1900XTX 512MB
$714

note that i needed a new PSU anyway. my old one is only 350W + it's causing other problems. maybe i should go with 600W? dunno about that yet. I saw someone else in this thread said they had this mobo and it worked fine for OC'ing the 805. So, assuming this whole thing works out and i can OC to 3.8 (my goal), then wouldn't you say that the performance I'll be getting is a "good deal"? i'm not going to be able to get a better chip /board/memory combo for $384 anywhere. and if i'm wrong, i'd really like to know.

Over time the 805 could cost you thousands of $ to run in energy and cooling costs alone.

It is an obsolete CPU based on a terrible arch (P4). If you must go Intel at least wait for con-roe[TM].

 

[BobVila]

Over time the 805 could cost you thousands of $ to run in energy and cooling costs alone.

hmmm... if this is in fact true, i'll definately reconsider this decision. anyone else have any thoughts on the amount of energy needed to run this CPU OC'd?

 

[linux_0]

Over time the 805 could cost you thousands of $ to run in energy and cooling costs alone.

hmmm... if this is in fact true, i'll definately reconsider this decision. anyone else have any thoughts on the amount of energy needed to run this CPU OC'd?


Please have a look here:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/05/10/dual_41_ghz_cores/page14.html


The system consumes a full 475W @4.1 GHz and about 400W @3.8GHz

and these numbers are conservative in my opinion and do not include overhead.

If you need to invest in a water cooling setup to cool the 805 you have to add at least another $200 - $600 to the acquisition cost.

Your energy costs will be almost double that of any other system so your electric bill would increase significantly.

Plus when your system components are consuming that much power you will be dissipating huge amounts of heat so you will likely have to add an AC unit to the room which will further increase your energy and cooling costs.

 

[BobVila]

it doesn't seem like that much of an increase to me... here's a quick calculation i came up with

At idling:

D805 @ 2.66 GHz = .17143 Kw/h * 24 hours in a day * 365 days a year * $0.0855/kw (avg. for Florida) = $128.40

D805 @ 3.80 Ghz = .22568 * 24 * 365 * $0.0855 = $163.40

that's about 35 bucks a year extra. that's idling of course, but it's also assuming the CPU is running 24/7/365 (which mine does not). That's also based on comparing this processor overclocked to itself running at regular speed. how much power does a nicer, more expensive chip consume? i'm guessing more than this one does at 2.66.

 

[zoglog]

it doesn't seem like that much of an increase to me... here's a quick calculation i came up with

At idling:

D805 @ 2.66 GHz = .17143 Kw/h * 24 hours in a day * 365 days a year * $0.0855/kw (avg. for Florida) = $128.40

D805 @ 3.80 Ghz = .22568 * 24 * 365 * $0.0855 = $163.40

that's about 35 bucks a year extra. that's idling of course, but it's also assuming the CPU is running 24/7/365 (which mine does not). That's also based on comparing this processor overclocked to itself running at regular speed. how much power does a nicer, more expensive chip consume? i'm guessing more than this one does at 2.66.

indeed, I think most people buying this system will be OCing this at max 3.8 Ghz rather than above. If so the power jump is not that great....

 

[BobVila]

i did a little more research on the wattage. i found this extreme PSU calculator here: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp

i plugged in all the info of my new PC i'm building and compared the suggested wattage of the Pentium D 805 and the AMD Athlon X2 4800+ and came up with these numbers:

X2 (at default speed) - 368 W
D805 OC'd at 3.806 and 1.5V - 406 W

so plugging those numbers into my equation above you get a difference per year of $28.46

now, let's compare these prices:
D805 running on the "high end" P5WD2-E Premium - $358
Athlon X2 4800+ (CPU only)- $632

i REALLY don't think power consumption is even an issue here (as far as cost)

 

[linux_0]

i did a little more research on the wattage. i found this extreme PSU calculator here: http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculator.jsp

i plugged in all the info of my new PC i'm building and compared the suggested wattage of the Pentium D 805 and the AMD Athlon X2 4800+ and came up with these numbers:

X2 (at default speed) - 368 W
D805 OC'd at 3.806 and 1.5V - 406 W

so plugging those numbers into my equation above you get a difference per year of $28.46

now, let's compare these prices:
D805 running on the "high end" P5WD2-E Premium - $358
Athlon X2 4800+ (CPU only)- $632

i REALLY don't think power consumption is even an issue here (as far as cost)

That is not correct! Actual power consumption is more like 700-900W depending on the efficiency of the PSU.

0.7 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $524.2860

to

0.9 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $674.0820

plus AC and it starts to add up quickly

 

[JonathanDeane]

That is not correct! Actual power consumption is more like 700-900W depending on the efficiency of the PSU.

Whoa.... glad my PSU is rated at 85% 😀 Anyway no matter what its not that bad all things considered the whole "It cost too much in electricity" is way overblown if some one doesnt have a few extra bucks a month to spend on electricity then a computer isnt realy what they are worried about... More likely they would be worried about the best bang for there buck with $2.56 at Burger King...

 

[zoglog]

so my question is how much does a 3.2Ghz Prescott suck? I'd assume it'd be just as much considering the temps....

 

[BobVila]

That is not correct! Actual power consumption is more like 700-900W depending on the efficiency of the PSU.

0.7 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $524.2860

to

0.9 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $674.0820

plus AC and it starts to add up quickly

ok, maybe you're missing my point here. you keep saying that this OC'd chip consumes tons of power, but what I'm trying to explain to you is that the difference between the 805 OC'd and the high end chips (i.e. the x2 4800) isn't a big difference. if in fact the power consumption is more depending on the efficiency of the PSU, that goes for ALL CPUs, not just the 805.

i showed in my post above that the difference between the 805 and the X2 is only 38W which translated to about 29 dollars. even if you DOUBLE those numbers, it's still a miniscule ~$58 difference. you are very much exaggerating the power consumption differences here. even if the numbers were tripled (unrealistic), it's a difference of about 90 bucks a YEAR. that doesn't come close to "thousands" that you mentioned above. unless you keep the thing for 10+ years, heh.

 

[linux_0]

That is not correct! Actual power consumption is more like 700-900W depending on the efficiency of the PSU.

0.7 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $524.2860

to

0.9 * 24 * 365 * 0.0855 = $674.0820

plus AC and it starts to add up quickly

ok, maybe you're missing my point here. you keep saying that this OC'd chip consumes tons of power, but what I'm trying to explain to you is that the difference between the 805 OC'd and the high end chips (i.e. the x2 4800) isn't a big difference. if in fact the power consumption is more depending on the efficiency of the PSU, that goes for ALL CPUs, not just the 805.

i showed in my post above that the difference between the 805 and the X2 is only 38W which translated to about 29 dollars. even if you DOUBLE those numbers, it's still a miniscule ~$58 difference. you are very much exaggerating the power consumption differences here. even if the numbers were tripled (unrealistic), it's a difference of about 90 bucks a YEAR. that doesn't come close to "thousands" that you mentioned above. unless you keep the thing for 10+ years, heh.


OC'ing to 4.1 or above almost doubles power consumption and heat dissipation.

The cooling bill will be higher than the power bill for the CPU.

 

[BobVila]

ok man. i give up. i completely disagree with you, and i feel i've proved my point here, and that's good enough for me to purchase this chip and enjoy my inexpensive high performance. thanks for trying to help though.

 

[linux_0]

ok man. i give up. i completely disagree with you, and i feel i've proved my point here, and that's good enough for me to purchase this chip and enjoy my inexpensive high performance. thanks for trying to help though.

If you are an Intel person you will be better served by a 65nm con-roe[TM].

If you are an AMD person you will be better served by a 65nm AMD.

If you are a performance fan wait and see which is better.


The 805 is greatly over hyped.

 

[theonejrs]

paulc2k,

I'm also going from a 3.0/800/HT Prescott OC'd to 3.6 (20%). But I'm going to a D940. The main problem with the D805 is heat! Slow it down to lower the heat and the performance drops radically. The 3.2 D940 runs stock right up there with the AMD 64x2 4400+ and the Opteron 175. That's pretty good performance without a lot of heat issues. I've been hearing temps of 60C idle and 69C while encoding which is way too hot. Yes, it will run like that, but for how long. I'm sure that the heat won't do the other componants any good either. Room temperature has a lot to do with it as well I actually read a post where some guy claimed temps of 31C to 47C. Yea sure! with a vapochill compressor unit or liquid nitrogen, maybe!

Happy Computering

 

[theonejrs]

PaulC2K,

I found an Asus MB that not only has 4x/8/x AGP but uses DDR 400 memory. It was critical to my new build because I only had $375 to spare for a CPU & MB. Check this one out!
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813131566


It has great overclocking and memory timing abilities and a 16x PCIe slot as wellas the AGP. Be warned, it only runs at 4X. I have AGP anyway (an XFX5200) and 2 Gigs of premium memory so that's why I went that direction. I have everything else I need. It should run great with the D940 Pressler I just ordered. I plan to replace this MB and go to DDR2 and a PCIe 7900GT extreme Edition when my finances improve and use it for a computer to sell, maybe with a D805 in it.

By the way, Ignore the reviews. The people complaining about it couldn't find their behind with both hands let alone no what their doing when building a computer. Read them, some of them are rediculous!

happy Computering
theonejrs