More Consideration

[Matisaro]

Please look up the word 'concede'.

-Raystonn

You claimed above that the p4 was the only cpu to use a syncronus fsb/memory rate, is that what you are conceding to.

because your post came off as if you concede to the ev6 bus, but still believe your origional statement.


So I am asking you, what are you conceding to, and do you still believe the claim you made above regarding the p4 being the only cpu which does what you say.


"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

No, the DDR400 memory operates off a 200MHz clock. As far as I know Athlons do not have a quad-pumped or dual-pumped FSB. The processor's FSB operates at the external clock you set in BIOS.

This is the statement I am refering to, and it is WRONG. Do you concede that?

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

Crucial sells Micron ram, crucial is a subsidiary of micron.


The cheapest 256 meg stick of MICRON ddr ram(which is exactly what crucial sells)

Tell me something, if all Crucial does is relabel Micron memory, then what are all their engineers doing? In fact, if this were the case why would anyone purchase memory from them at all? It would all be extremely overpriced for the same quality. The truth is that Crucial memory is made from start to finish with Micron DRAM and Micron modules. Most 'Micron'-advertised memory are merely the Micron DRAM chips with third party packaging, which is cheaper and of lesser quality. Read <A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/library/quality_page5.asp" target="_new">here</A>, <A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/library/quality_page6.asp" target="_new">here</A> and <A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/library/quality_page7.asp" target="_new">here</A> for further explanations. Your arguments in regards to memory quality are rather poor.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Raystonn]

You claimed above that the p4 was the only cpu to use a syncronus fsb/memory rate, is that what you are conceding to.

Actually I stated that the Pentium 4 was the only processor that was not transmitting on the FSB only once per external clock. I then later apologized for being incorrect. This would be a concession.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

Crucial uses micron chips, the limiting factor for ram is the chips, I have 3 times provided evidence that ddr is cheaper than rambus, and yet to be right, you CONTINUE to make unfair assertions, first the ONLY quality ram is crucial, which is laughable.

Second That crucial dosent things signifigantly differently from other vendors to warrant the price premium, fine whatever.


If you buy a stick of samsung rdram from the source you quoted, you pay 12.81 shipping.
bringing you to a total of. 83.85


When you buy a stick of 256 megs ddr from crucial.com you pay NO shipping, bringing your total to. 75.59

Which as you can see, IS STILL CHEAPER, than rdram.


Any more straws you want to grasp at ray before recanting your quickly made and incorrect claim?



AND finally, I would like to say, that unless samsung packages all of their own rimms, the same thing you said about crucial can be said for any manufacturer, unless you know that samsung packaged the rdram you linked to on pricewatch, the same quality issue applies.

And since samsung electronics seems to be down, I cannot confim if those modules are actually made by samsung, or like the micron links I provided earlier, were packaged by another company.


Even so, your statement has been proven incorrect at every turn, I must insist you just admit your mistake and lets move on.....if not, then I am done with this waste of bandwith of a discussion, its pointless to debate something with someone whos mind is made up, and who will add any caveat to make his origional claim correct.


"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

Tell me something, if all Crucial does is relabel Micron memory, then what are all their engineers doing?

On their site it says, crucial technology, a division of micron.

Unless micron ram you buy elsewhere isnt really micron ram, thats EXACTLY what they are doing.
"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

Actually I stated that the Pentium 4 was the only processor that was not transmitting on the FSB only once per external clock. I then later apologized for being incorrect. This would be a concession.

-Raystonn

Thankyou, thats all I wanted to know.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

You do not seem to understand: the memory you buy on PriceWatch that is labeled as Micron uses the Micron DRAM chips but not the Micron PCBs. It usually has a generic PCB and is not tested as well as a full Micron PCB with Micron DRAM assembled at the factory. The quality is simply not there. If you think the only important consideration for memory are the core DRAM chips, then you are mistaken. Those DRAM chips are just one piece of the puzzle. If you think memory labeled as "Micron" on PriceWatch, which uses Micron DRAM chips and a third party PCB with unknown testing procedures is high quality, then go buy some. The rest of us know better.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

It usually has a generic PCB and is not tested as well as a full Micron PCB with Micron DRAM assembled at the factory.

An oppinion.


Secondly, how is it any different from you suggesting we purchase the cheapest samsung rdram from pricewatch, unless samsung dosent sell rdram chips to vendors the same way micron does, your whole entire argument is flawwed.

That is a very hypocritical stand to take.

do you have evidence that ALL samsung rdram is assembled by samsung.

If you do not, then the point still stands, ddr is cheaper.


Furthermore, my post about crucial/samsung shows that even buying from crucial.com costs less than your no name samsung pricewatch vendor.


Got any more smoke and mirrors ray?

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

how is it any different from you suggesting we purchase the cheapest samsung rdram from pricewatch, unless samsung dosent sell rdram chips to vendors the same way micron does, your whole entire argument is flawwed.

There really is no such thing as an "rdram chip". RDRAM modules are made from top quality DRAM chips and packaged in a RIMM to Rambus' specifications. When you buy Samsung RDRAM from a vendor you are getting a memory module made completely by Samsung, PCB and all. When you buy memory DDR-SDRAM modules advertised as "Micron", in truth only the DRAM chips are made by Micron. The PCB can be from anywhere. It can be assembled by anyone. But they still list it on PriceWatch as "Micron" memory modules. One could really make a case for false advertising, but noone has bothered to do this yet. The industry is simply used to advertising modules based on their DRAM chips, since there is only one company (Micron) that even builds a complete DDR-SDRAM module.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

There really is no such thing as an "rdram chip". RDRAM modules are made from top quality DRAM chips and packaged in a RIMM to Rambus' specifications. When you buy Samsung RDRAM from a vendor you are getting a memory module made completely by Samsung, PCB and all. When you buy memory DDR-SDRAM modules advertised as "Micron", in truth only the DRAM chips are made by Micron. The PCB can be from anywhere. It can be assembled by anyone. But they still list it on PriceWatch as "Micron" memory modules. One could really make a case for false advertising, but noone has bothered to do this yet.

Which is fine, and all the other points come down to that, however, you have yet to address the crucial shipping point.


DDR bought from crucial is cheaper, than rdram bought from the cheapest pricewatch source.


There are other quality brands of ddrram out there, and I fail to see why I am confined to use crucial ram against samsung ram, but if you insisit.

How do you counter the fact crucial cost less than samsung?

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

DDR bought from crucial is cheaper, than rdram bought from the cheapest pricewatch source.

<A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/store/listmodule.asp?module=DDR+PC2100&Attrib=Package" target="_new">Crucial's</A> 256MB PC2100 DDR-SDRAM module is $75.59. Samsung's 256MB PC800 RDRAM is $71. If you are not overclocking, the PC2100 is what you are going to be using. Otherwise you will need considerably more expensive PC2700 DDR-SDRAM to keep up in processor clockspeed (hence FSB) with the Samsung RDRAM system.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

The PCB can be from anywhere. It can be assembled by anyone.

This while being true does not mean that it is neccicarily of lower quality.

The industry is simply used to advertising modules based on their DRAM chips, since there is only one company (Micron) that even builds a complete DDR-SDRAM module.

Furthermore, if this is the case then I submit this.


There are 2 pages of links to micron chip ddr ram, which fall below the price you list for samsung rdram, surely at least one of those companies is selling high quality pcb's.

If you claim that all ram not packaged by crucial is no good, then I will know there is no point in debating this, if all ram is as you say, made by third party vendors using chips which are sold wholesale, than in your oppinion, NO ddr can ever be of high quality....and that being the case, there is no point discussing this further.



"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

Crucial's 256MB PC2100 DDR-SDRAM module is $75.59. Samsung's 256MB PC800 RDRAM is $71. If you are not overclocking, the PC2100 is what you are going to be using. Otherwise you will need considerably more expensive PC2700 DDR-SDRAM to keep up in processor clockspeed (hence FSB) with the Samsung RDRAM system.

-Raystonn

Do you even read my posts ray, I said that shipping on the 71 dollar rimm is 13 bucks, and crucial has no shipping charge, thus making the crucial cheaper.


if you are going to ignore what I say in blind defence of your flawwed statements, then I am NOT wasting any more time with you and your shortsightedness.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

There are 2 pages of links to micron chip ddr ram, which fall below the price you list for samsung rdram, surely at least one of those companies is selling high quality pcb's.

Can you tell me which one(s) sell Micron DRAM chips on high quality PCBs with high quality testing? If not why should anyone buy from them? Buy what you can trust.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[Matisaro]

My final summation on this topic, unless ray posts something origional for a change is thus.

(and I am keeping it short so you dont miss it ray, like you have been doing alot in this discussion)

Is.

The price to get 1 module of samsung ram into your computer from the cheapest pricewatch source is.

71.00+ 12.95 shipping=83.95

The price to get a stick of pc2100ddr ram into your computer from crucial.com, which is rather expensive and can be beat on pricewatch, but rayy insists.
is

75.95+0 for shipping

Thus you have
Rdram83.95 > ddrram 75.95


So, ddr is cheaper than rdram, no question, no holds barred, nothing.


If ray trys to explain his way out of that, I will be in another thread trying to help, laughing at the lengths people will go to try and justify their incorrect statements.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Raystonn]

shipping on the 71 dollar rimm is 13 bucks, and crucial has no shipping charge, thus making the crucial cheaper.

I just went to Crucial's website to check this. It would appear they either have the wrong price listed on the main memory page for this module or they are adding some kind of handling charge. Click to purchase one of these memory modules (part number CT3264Z265) and you will be given the new price of $88.19. It looks like the RDRAM is still cheaper than the PC2100 Crucial at the moment. I would also like to note that Crucial charges sales tax in 30 States, including my own. That offsets the free shipping they offer.

You should also remember that my statement to AMD_Man reflected the fact that he intended to overclock his Pentium 4. This requires PC2700 DDR-SDRAM should he decide to go with DDR-SDRAM. Quality PC2700 would be much more expensive.

if you are going to ignore what I say in blind defence of your flawwed statements, then I am NOT wasting any more time with you and your shortsightedness.

You are a highly agressive individual who seems to have something to prove. You might want to spend your time on something a bit more constructive than running around with a chip on your shoulder.

-Raystonn


= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

 

[priit]

From where I live (Estonia), I can get 2x128Mb RDRAM (Samsung) for ~$120 (single 256Mb module costs about same) and 1x256Mb DDRRAM (Apacher PC-2100 CAS2) for ~$100. RDRAM is little more expensive, but not much (PS. AthlonXP 2000+ costs ~$380 and P4 NW 2.2Ghz ~$780 😡 ).

 

[Matisaro]

I just went to Crucial's website to check this. It would appear they either have the wrong price listed on the main memory page for this module or they are adding some kind of handling charge. Click to purchase one of these memory modules (part number CT3264Z265) and you will be given the new price of $88.19. It looks like the RDRAM is still cheaper than the PC2100 Crucial at the moment. I would also like to note that Crucial charges sales tax in 30 States, including my own. That offsets the free shipping they offer.

<A HREF="http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT3264Z265" target="_new">http://www.crucial.com/store/PartSpecs.asp?imodule=CT3264Z265</A>


When you hit ship the price does change, but it is an error as there is no shipping and the price is clearly quoted.

Sales tax now? LOL, whatever rayy.

You should also remember that my statement to AMD_Man reflected the fact that he intended to overclock his Pentium 4. This requires PC2700 DDR-SDRAM should he decide to go with DDR-SDRAM. Quality PC2700 would be much more expensive.

If that was the case, how come you have been debating pc2100 with me for an hour, just another excuse ray.

You are a highly agressive individual who seems to have something to prove. You might want to spend your time on something a bit more constructive than running around with a chip on your shoulder.

LoL, you are a highly arrogant individual who spent just as much time as me debating the point, and adding pointless caveats to my every claim, you are wrong, live with it.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[Matisaro]

Can you tell me which one(s) sell Micron DRAM chips on high quality PCBs with high quality testing? If not why should anyone buy from them? Buy what you can trust.

So now, you are saying that you should only buy from people you trust, but you have no qualms reccomending the cheapest pricewatch vendor, and insisting I use crucial(the best ddr ram vendor)

Star components which has a resellerrating of 2?


<A HREF="http://www.resellerratings.com/cgi-bin/reseller/vendone.cgi?StarComponents" target="_new">http://www.resellerratings.com/cgi-bin/reseller/vendone.cgi?StarComponents</A>

You are a hypocrite ray, and this discussion is over. You use your technical background to spread fud, and when called on it you fail to reply, or you split hairs till the other person gets sick of it.

Furthermore, when you are called on something, and you cannot split hairs(like when you were totally wrong about how ddr ram functions and were proved so) you leave the boards for weeks, and then return when intel has something new for you to hawk.


DDR is cheaper than rambus, and no amount of caveats you can shove out will change that.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

 

[texas_techie]

Raystonn, very interesting about 3rd party vendors using Micron but inferior PCBs. I found this on micron's website:

"Many third party companies use Micron chips in creating their own modules. You may find numerous different types of chips on a single module. In this case, you must contact the company you purchased it from to get information on the specifications."

So Matisaro, do you have any links/info on RAM sellers that use micron, I would love to research this further and do just what Rayston asked, which is find out the quality and specs of PCBs.
Off the top of my head, I recall Kingston, Hynix, SMART. Anyone else remember any memory manufacturers and/or Brand names? PLEASE post them, i intend to figure out who makes crap ram.


Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.

 

[Thorin]

how jerry sander/hertor ruiz seen to like destroy any thing that intel do.

I'm not disputing that statement as I don't know much about the goings on inside AMD, but if you get hold of a book called Inside Intel and read it, you'll see that intel have in the past been incredibly aggressive towards AMD, particularly Andy Grove who at one point was absolutely determined to drive AMD out of business!

Cheers,

Thorin

 

[priit]

There are makers like PQI (makes their own chips&modules, pretty good IMO), SpecTech, M-Tech, Apacer, Viking, Transcend, Spacewalker etc...

 

[texas_techie]

Thanks Priit...
As for Ruiz and Sanders trying to destroy anything intel. I am gonna have to say... DUH!!! I think thats what Intel wants to do to AMD as well (destroy them) so they can go back to charging insane prices.

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.

 

[AMD_Man]

You should also remember that my statement to AMD_Man reflected the fact that he intended to overclock his Pentium 4. This requires PC2700 DDR-SDRAM should he decide to go with DDR-SDRAM. Quality PC2700 would be much more expensive.

Wow! I went to sleep last night and I wake up to find Matisaro and Raystonn arguing over which RAM is cheaper.

I'd like to point out a couple of things for your guys:

I've went to several sites and I found that Crucial PC2100 RAM is basically CL2.5 PC366 RAM is disguise. Yes, Crucial RAM can go up that high but only with a CAS of 2.5. Now, it seems to me that, unlike the Athlon, the P4, especially the Northwood, cares very little about latency (which would explain why 333MHz DDR RAM is still slightly slower than RDRAM in terms of overall performancce). One would imagine that DDR RAM running at 333MHz or even 366MHz with a relatively low latency would offset for the bandwidth advantage that RDRAM has. I've read one review <A HREF="http://www.gamepc.com/reviews/hardware_review.asp?review=p4s333&page=1&mscssid=&tp=+" target="_new">here</A>on the Asus P4S333 and I'm impressed by it's overclocking features. They managed to get the RAM to 366MHz CL2.5 problem-free! Impressive! At that point, I find the difference between RDRAM and DDR RAM to be negligible. However, one major limitation lies in the P4S333. You can only run 2 sticks of DDR333 at 333MHz. With the third stick, you're down to 266MHz. That's gotta hurt! I would be sacrificing ~5% performance if I ever wanted to fill that third memory slot. So, obviously I'll try not to, if I do get that board.

One thing you have to remember is that I'm nowhere near making a final decision; I'm waiting for a side-by-side comparison with the T-Bred.

EDIT: I take that back. According to <A HREF="http://www.tweaktown.com/document.php?dType=review&dId=156" target="_new">this</A> review, the P4S333 doesn't like FSB speeds over 124 and that would severely limit it's overclocking potential. Looks like the TH7-II isn't the best choice but it is, however, a good $70CDN more than the P4S333. However, the RDRAM will cost about the same as Crucial PC2100 here in Canada.

AMD technology + Intel technology = Intel/AMD Pentathlon IV; the <b>ULTIMATE</b> PC processor