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tlaughrey · Feb 19, 2002

the massive overclocks achievable with the 1.6A and 1.8A are just getting back the performance you should have had in the first place

Lol ... good one. And pretty accurate

I made you look. But I can't make you see.

texas_techie · Feb 19, 2002

I would definitely agree that AMD does not "innovate" as much as Intel. Their technologies are usually based on proven ideas that will get wide-spread acceptance. Like DDR.
Intel does have a lot going on in R&D. So their ideas are a little more revolutionary, even if they do flop when they come to market ( like rambus is the early days).
Take Hammer: Integrated memory controller. A great idea, but not out of this world technology. 3 hypertansport links so you can hook multiple computers together. Great idea, but isnt a "shocker". SOI - lets face it, they had to do something to get the heat down. .13 micron? They had to !

Most AMD innovations leave me thinking "man, thats a great idea, why didnt everyone do this before?" Dual cores? Well, thats actually pretty impressive. I dont hate Intel, I just want Intel to have good competition. That will keep prices low for all of us. So I lean toward AMD when recommending systems.
Have a nice day

Benchmarks are like sex, everybody loves doing it, everybody thinks they are good at it.

tlaughrey · Feb 19, 2002

Wow juin, that was a fairly intelligible post, I'm impressed. Keep up the good work on the English.

I'm also glad to hear you're not totally anti-AMD anymore. It's good to have an open mind about things and be able to judge them and discuss them on their merits.

I made you look. But I can't make you see.

lhgpoobaa · Feb 19, 2002

i want some of that corsair, problem is i want 2 sticks... and i have to multiply the price by 2 to get auzzie dollars. NOT FUN.

Overclocked athlon 1200C @ 8.5 x 166FSB + PC2700 = GOOD!

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

So it's up to you, but before you thrash the price you saw for the RAM, please do a quote online on RB Comp, as it could be your last resort. And also, you're saying you're not buying an AXP so you are staying therefore with your Tbird if you chose to buy the AMD Iwill package? If so you will save money fer sure, but I would recommend going to newer heights, or even waiting for a Tbred and see how it OCs or simply how high it can go.

I personally would get the ram and the mobo, then in a few months you will be able to get a tbred and overclock THAT quite highly with the 166/166fsb, now that will be performance.

But if you dont want to wait for the tbred, the nw sounds like a good deal.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

AMD started the multi-rate per clock FAD with the original K7 Athlon!

What is a multi-rate per clock fad?

Athlons have always been DDR!

The type of memory used on your motherboard really has nothing to do with your processor. Your processor has a set amount of bandwidth available for input from memory and caches. This input is transferred over the FSB (Front-Side Bus.) Whether you use SDRAM, DDR-SDRAM, or RDRAM does not matter. All that matters is that data is being fed to the processor's FSB. Thusfar, the only processor with an FSB not equal to the external clock (that is set on the motherboard) is the Pentium 4, which has a quad-pumped FSB.

The P4's super deep pipeline has to recompute much more frequently than an Athlon due to branch mis-predictions and therefore needs to access main memory more often.

Usually this access is simply to the L1 cache. Occasionally it is to the L2 cache. Rarely, main memory must be accessed. We should note that the L1 cache on the Pentium 4 includes new technology. The instruction opcodes remain in a type of compiled state. This makes the effort of retrieving new instructions during a branch misprediction much more quick. You can in effect skip a few stages of the pipeline this way. I expect all processors to use such technology in the future.

The Athlon has a shorter pipeline - less recomputes - and deeper cache reserves

While it does have a shorter pipeline, it also has less cache now. The Northwood Pentium 4 includes 512KB of L2 cache, surpassing that of the Athlon.

... as the GHz rises, so does the reliance on memory bandwidth.

This is true of any processor. Increase the clockspeed on a processor by X% and you will increase the amount of memory bandwidth it desires by X%. Note that the percentages do not change.

If you asynchronously underclock the memory, you are strangling the blood to the brain.

This is also true of any processor. It is why the Pentium 4 platform does not perform as well with DDR-SDRAM as it does with RDRAM. An RDRAM memory subsystem will deliver up to 100% more memory bandwidth to the processor.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Thusfar, the only processor with an FSB not equal to the external clock (that is set on the motherboard) is the Pentium 4, which has a quad-pumped FSB.

The athlon has a dual pumped fsb, which runs at the same rate as its ddr memory.

That is misinformation ray, tread lightly.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Usually this access is simply to the L1 cache. Occasionally it is to the L2 cache. Rarely, main memory must be accessed. We should note that the L1 cache on the Pentium 4 includes new technology. The instruction opcodes remain in a type of compiled state. This makes the effort of retrieving new instructions during a branch misprediction much more quick. You can in effect skip a few stages of the pipeline this way. I expect all processors to use such technology in the future.

If this were true, then the p4 would not lose as much as it does when doing onto a ddr system, is this not accurate? In fact, the gain from the lower latency of the ddr system(as opposed to the high latency of pc800) would mean that the p4 would perform better with ddram, which is obviously not the case.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

if you look at benchs, you'd still find it that the AthlonXP would do better in value

Sorry, I just do not see it. The current form of Athlon is not a better value than the current Pentium 4. Things may change when the 0.13 micron Athlons come out. But until then, this simply is not the case.

if you have read my link and know that you should go DDR in both systems for a cost-effective P4(SiS645)

Do not go with DDR-SDRAM for a Pentium 4 unless you want to starve it for data. Quality DDR-SDRAM costs more than RDRAM these days, and you get less performance for that higher price.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Sorry, I just do not see it. The current form of Athlon is not a better value than the current Pentium 4. Things may change when the 0.13 micron Athlons come out. But until then, this simply is not the case.

Only if you take overclocking into account. At stock the value of axp's is still much greater than that of the nw p4.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

tlaughrey · Feb 19, 2002

Yeah, I want a couple of sticks myself. And then of course I'll have to get a mobo that supports it when I find a good one. And eventually a new processor ... and on and on. So you see, these upgrades are forced upon me

I made you look. But I can't make you see.

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

That is misinformation ray, tread lightly.

So the Athlon's FSB is 64-bits wide and runs dual-pumped off the external clock? That is news to me. Why is it that everyone refers to its FSB as 133MHz then? At any rate, if this is the case then I do apologize.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Do not go with DDR-SDRAM for a Pentium 4 unless you want to starve it for data. Quality DDR-SDRAM costs more than RDRAM these days, and you get less performance for that higher price.

-Raystonn

He is absolutly right about the p4, do not mate a p4 with ddr ram, it negates any advantage the p4 may have had.

However, quality ddr ram is still less expensive than rdram, ON pricewatch, the cheapest 256megs of ddr ram is 54$, while the cheapest rdram is 68$.

To negate the quality issue, I will use memman(my memory source) to compare 2 sticks.

Memman 256 ddr~75$
Memman 256 Rdr~98

Corsair ddr~89.00
corsair rdr~107

If crucial made rdram, It would play out the same way.

Like it or not, pc2700 is not the standard, and comparing pc2700 to pc800 as ray is fond of doing, is neither logical nor fair.

Thats my 2 cents on the price of ram in china.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

If this were true, then the p4 would not lose as much as it does when doing onto a ddr system

Performance suffers when using DDR-SDRAM because you begin to starve the processor for data. Whether that data is for an application or for instructions that the processor requires, it is going to stall the processor and hurt performance.

the gain from the lower latency of the ddr system(as opposed to the high latency of pc800) would mean that the p4 would perform better with ddram, which is obviously not the case.

Why would the Pentium 4 perform better with DDR SDRAM if instructions were usually found in the L1 and L2 cache? Memory would have no affect on this, except during the rare fetch from main memory. Because these fetches are indeed rare compared to the cache hits, one gains only marginal performance benefits from DDR-SDRAM's latency. More often than not during the execution of an application, the processor is stalled waiting for application data. If your memory bandwidth is being saturated by application data fetches, then any instruction fetch will be delayed further. Ensuring adequate bandwidth to avoid saturation becomes extremely important in maintaining low latency for fetches at these times.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

So the Athlon's FSB is 64-bits wide and runs dual-pumped off the external clock? That is news to me. Why is it that everyone refers to its FSB as 133MHz then? At any rate, if this is the case then I do apologize.

The athlon cpu communicates with the northbridge at 133mhz dual pumped, that is what I am saying. That is an obviously known fact, is there a reason why this common information is wrong, if so, please explain, because every company selling athlons at Axp's133/266fsb is committing false advertising.

Q: Is the AMD Athlon processor compatible with Intel´s Pentium® III motherboards?
A: No. The AMD Athlon processor uses AMD´s Slot A module design, which is mechanically compatible with Slot 1 motherboards but uses a different electrical interface. Because Slot A and Slot 1 infrastructures are not electrically compatible, the AMD Athlon processor cannot work with Slot 1 motherboards. Slot A is designed to connect electrically to a 200MHz system bus based on the Alpha EV6 bus protocol, thus delivering a significant performance advantage over Slot 1 infrastructure.

This faq was written before the 133fsb days, however it plainly states that it is a 200mhz system bus, here is the url.

<A HREF="http://www.powerstartpc.com/scripts/faq.asp" target="_new">http://www.powerstartpc.com/scripts/faq.asp</A>

And here is the google search page for "ev6 bus faq" where you can read up on the bus and learn about it, as to be better informed next time you insinuate it is not what it claims to be.

<A HREF="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ev6+bus+faq" target="_new">http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ev6+bus+faq</A>

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Performance suffers when using DDR-SDRAM because you begin to starve the processor for data. Whether that data is for an application or for instructions that the processor requires, it is going to stall the processor and hurt performance.

My bad, forgot to take the standard datatransfers into account, point withdrawn.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

However, quality ddr ram is still less expensive than rdram

I will have to disagree here. The best quality RDRAM available right now is Samsung. A 256MB module of Samsung RDRAM will cost you $71 (PriceWatch). A quality piece of PC2100 DDR-SDRAM will cost more than this, and is usually best not bought off PriceWatch.

As far as comparing PC2700 modules, he indicated he wanted to overclock. Eden told him to get a DDR-SDRAM platform. This would require memory that is faster than PC2100. If he wanted to reach the speeds most are getting he will need PC2700 memory. There is no other way to do it.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

The athlon cpu communicates with the northbridge...

I already conceded this one... 😉

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

priit · Feb 19, 2002

So the Athlon's FSB is 64-bits wide and runs dual-pumped off the external clock? That is news to me. Why is it that everyone refers to its FSB as 133MHz then? At any rate, if this is the case then I do apologize.

It should be so. Look <A HREF="http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=77" target="_new">http://www.aceshardware.com/read.jsp?id=77</A> for information for example...

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

I will have to disagree here. The best quality RDRAM available right now is Samsung. A 256MB module of Samsung RDRAM will cost you $71 (PriceWatch). A quality piece of PC2100 DDR-SDRAM will cost more than this, and is usually best not bought off PriceWatch.

As far as comparing PC2700 modules, he indicated he wanted to overclock. Eden told him to get a DDR-SDRAM platform. This would require memory that is faster than PC2100. If he wanted to reach the speeds most are getting he will need PC2700 memory. There is no other way to do it.

-Raystonn

First, the pc2700 was a counterpoint you made in another thread where this discussion came up.(quality rdram and price)

Secondly, The only way to negate various factors is to compare from the same brand, that I have done.

Since you insist on samsung, perhaps samsung ddr would be a good comparison, and the cheapest price for samsung memory ddr 256megs pc2100 on pricewatch is why...63 dollars, and it is cheaper than the samsung rdr, who would believe it!

Now, does samsung makes great rdram, and low quality ddr ram in the same fab??

DDRram is CHEAPER than rdram, period, no matter what brand you compare. Even when we have to stick to quality, like you insisit, it is cheaper.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

The athlon cpu communicates with the northbridge...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I already conceded this one... 😉

-Raystonn

If the cpu communicates with the northbridge at 266mhz(133ddr) and the ram communicates with the northbridge at 266mhz(133ddr), than does that not make a syncronized 266(133ddr) fsb>?

What are you saying, the evidence is clear ray.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

"The Athlon leaves the competition far behind, thanks to the advanced EV6-bus. Notice that moving data around using a 64 bit copy makes the Athlon look better than 32-bit copies. The EV6-bus works most efficiently when using 64-bit data sets. "

I especially like that quote from the link provided above.

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

Secondly, The only way to negate various factors is to compare from the same brand, that I have done.

This is not really very valid. The best RDRAM is not necessarily manufactured by the same company as the best DDR-SDRAM. There are a great many more things to consider other than the core DRAM off which all current memory is based. So far I have not seen anyone recommend Samsung DDR-SDRAM for high quality (CAS 2) operation.

If you are buying RDRAM then you are going to buy Samsung. If you are buying DDR-SDRAM then you are going to buy Crucial (or another high quality source.)

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Raystonn · Feb 19, 2002

What are you saying, the evidence is clear ray.

Please look up the word 'concede'.

-Raystonn

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my employer. =

Matisaro · Feb 19, 2002

Crucial sells Micron ram, crucial is a subsidiary of micron.

The cheapest 256 meg stick of MICRON ddr ram(which is exactly what crucial sells)

IS

61$, and its even cheaper(pricewatch lists at 61, the website lists at 66, either way is cheaper but if you email them, they will honor the pricewatch price.)

Heres a direct link.
<A HREF="http://www.techmia.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TechMIA&Product_Code=MEM-256DDR/266&Category_Code=DDR2100" target="_new">http://www.techmia.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=TechMIA&Product_Code=MEM-256DDR/266&Category_Code=DDR2100</A>

Now, are you gonna impose I buy my micron ram from crucial, and you can get your samsung ram from pricewatch, just so you can be right?

Admit you misspoke ray, ddr ram is cheaper than rdram. Even if you get samsung, and even if you insist I get micron ram, it is STILL cheaper!

"The Cash Left In My Pocket,The BEST Benchmark"
No Overclock+stock hsf=GOOD!

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