Need Advice on video/audio editing system ($800-2000).

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ash22

ash22

Distinguished
Dec 8, 2009
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18,510
APPROXIMATE PURCHASE DATE: April 2010
BUDGET RANGE: $800-2000

SYSTEM USAGE: Video/Audio/Photo editing, surfing the internet, every day use.
PARTS NOT REQUIRED: keyboard, mouse, monitor, speakers, OS.
PREFERRED WEBSITE(S) FOR PARTS: newegg.com, tigerdirect.com
PARTS PREFERENCES: I would like to use an Intel CPU & full tower case
OVERCLOCKING: No
SLI OR CROSSFIRE: No

MONITOR RESOLUTION: 1920x1200

ADDITIONAL COMMENTS: I would like a quiet PC (who doesn’t?),also an IEEE 1394 FireWire port would be nice.

No Blu-ray capabilities are recurred.

Primarily I use Adobe CS4 master collection, additionally sometimes Sony Acid & Vegas Pro or Samplitude Pro.

I’m shooting my programs with my camcorder (Canon VIXIA HD30), recording it strait on my laptop, than editing it and encoding it. I produce around 5-10hrs of mp3, mp4 and wmv per month.

Also I have some stuff laying around from my old build:

HITACHI Deskstar HD31000 1TB
Sound Blaster Creative X-fi Titanium (PCI)
Ultra LSP750 750-Watt Power Supply
NEC Black 16X E-IDE/ATAPI DVD Burner
 
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Well,
You certainly can afford am INTEL Socket 1366 i7-930 ...

... Question is : Do you really need that much computer and what (pro?) editing software (and other tools) do you have or intend ??

There are cheaper ways to go.

Are you going to be focused on the HDV/AVCHD H.264 codec at 25Mbits/sec, or less?

Burning BluRay (much) ??

Really important to know how much (volume) of output ... formats for aquisition and output ... total minutes of program output per month.

For work?

Avid? Adobe CS4? Vegas? Liquid Edition? 3d titles and effects (much) ??

Some answers to these questions would help to scale the system and budget.

= Alvin =
 
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Oh, I’m sorry. I should of mention it at the beginning.

No Blu-ray capabilities are recurred.

Primarily I use Adobe CS4 master collection, additionally sometimes Sony Acid & Vegas Pro or Samplitude Pro.

I’m shooting my programs with my camcorder (Canon VIXIA HD30), recording it strait on my laptop, than editing it and encoding it. I produce around 5-10hrs of mp3, mp4 and wmv per month.

Also I have some stuff laying around from my old build:

HITACHI Deskstar HD31000 1TB
Sound Blaster Creative X-fi Titanium (PCI)
Ultra LSP750 750-Watt Power Supply
NEC Black 16X E-IDE/ATAPI DVD Burner
 
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Cool! I have an HV30 as well ... luv-Luv-LUV it ! Weildy and portable ... superb video quality. I'll be steppin up this summer, tho. Even the slowest zoom is too "abrupt" right when it starts or stops ... the zoom speed does not ramp down (or up). .... I want big lens rings for zoom/focus, so I can pull a smoother zoom and do proffessional "rack-focus" shots.


Now, to your edit rig ... You can really go three different ways with your core system and your graphics subsys will depend on just how much 3D modelling, titles, effects and CG ... My videos are fairly classic (i.e. tastefully subdued) and I do not lean on 3D graphics engine all that much. Also, my time is not so critical (no serious deadlines) so I can wait (a little while) for 3D renders and such BUT rendering programs over 5 min long, at highest quality with 2Pass-CBR can take a ... L O N G ... time !


Core System Component Options .... (by price .. Lo to Hi)

1) AMD/AM3 Black Quad 3.4GHz OCd with 4GB DDR3 (dual channel)

2) INTEL Socket 1156 Core i7-860 (stock clock or OCd) with 4GB-8GB DDR3 (2ch)

3) INTEL Socket 1366 Core i7-930 (stock or OCd) with 6GB DDR3 (3 channel)

Aftermarket cooler is highly recommended (because of long render stresses) regardless of "stock or OC".

*** How many monitors do you intend to run ??? **** Rez/Refresh ?? ****

The graphics system has me a little snookered, at the moment, because REAL PRO editing requires a QuadroFX workstation card (or two) with 1GB GDDR (or more).

A cheaper (modern) "multi-head" game card (or two) is plenty for multi-mon editing but a more expensive gamer is needed if much 3D (such as particle effects, rain, snow, fire, motion 3d titles, etc. In the beginning (8 yrs ago), I thought I would do lots of that, but I have not found much motivated justification in the local event and performance art videos which I trend towards.

Nothing more chintzy than unmotivated effects, eh?

Perhaps we can glean some more clarity and knowledge of the GPU landscape together ...

I am trending towards TWO Ati 5770s or 2 nVidia G260s (or higher), at this moment ... I cannot afford the QuadroFX option(s).

Don't worry TOO much if a given Mobo does not include integrated firewire or a 2nd Gigabit Ethernet port ... cheap add-in cards can solve that.

You DO want a mobo that sports USB3.0 and SATA-III ... editors need as many speedy interna AND external storage options as possibe.

I strongly recommend picking out your GPUs and TWO-PLUS SSDs before you get into your core system components ... SSDs will make an edit rig ROCK even more than a faster cpu (if you have ever listened to a noisy HDD during long key-frame renders, you know exactly what I mean ... sounds like a fargin DEFRAG session!

Let's see how this thread unfolds ...

MUCH to learn about the AMD/AM3 option on the thread/link posted below ... It is for a gamer's rig but the core components are essentially the same. If you have the time (and inclination) please do peruse the entire thread, despite my annoying attempts at humor and long-winded brainstorming.

http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/282126-31-1500-gaming-everyday

= Alvin =
 
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Thanks Alvin for ton of useful information and quick response.

In previous life I had problems with AMD based systems (3 of them), after a few month of use thermal paste always did dray out, with overheating of CPU as a result. So, now Intel solutions look more appalling to me. In my current gaming rig I have Intel Core2 Quad 64bit 2.67GHz Q9450 with stock cooling running stable for around a year now.

For monitor I have Samsung SyncMaster 2693hm, with resolution of 1920x1200 and refresh rate of 5ms. Maybe I will add second monitor in a future.

I don’t really intend to do any 3D modeling nor gaming on that system at all.
Are you sure GTX260 is not going to be an overkill or best solution for video editing?
What do you think about WinFast PxVC1100?
I can’t figure out if it can be used with Adobe Premier Pro.

SSD Drives are nice, but I’m not sure they worth the extra $$$. SSD Drive will definitely speedup booting and loading presses, but I don’t think HDD is going to be a bottleneck for editing nor encoding. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 
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Video editing workstation first draft:


Motherboard: ASUS P6X58D Premium $309.99 or
ASUS P6T Deluxe V2 $289.99

CPU: [strike]Intel Core i7 920 2.66GHz $288.99[/strike]
Intel Core i7-930 2.8GHz $294.99

REM: [strike]CORSAIR XMS3 12GB (6 x 2GB) $359.99[/strike]
G.SKILL PI Series 12GB (6 x 2GB) $359.99

Cooling: ARCTIC COOLING Freezer 7 Pro $29.98

HDD: Hitachi Deskstar 1TB Hard Drive $0

GPU: PNY VCQFX1800 $559.99

PSU: Ultra LSP750 750-Watt Power Supply $0

Sound Card: Sound Blaster Creative X-fi Titanium (PCI) $0

Optical Drive: NEC Black 16X E-IDE/ATAPI DVD Burner $0

Case: COOLER MASTER HAF 932 $159.98


Total system cost is about $1700

This is what I came up so far. Any critique and suggestions very much appreciated.
 
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Absolutey agree with both of those statements and the author surely knows that I am not saying that for HIS benefit !!

It is fair to say that anybody who does not agree with both assertations is not very knowledgable (or up to date).

******************

 
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Dude! Fundamentally Rock Solid build and fully "reflects" the core requirements for an Avid/Adobe certified top-end workstation (without the Xeon(s) ) !

I *WOULD* say that "It is definate overkill for Sony Creative Suite Products" but I won't because I think the system you already have is "in the ball-park" for the Sony products.

I hate paying so much for that PNY QuadroFX but it WILL be usefull if you get into effects and titles and advanced features and elements of CS4 ... still a little hard to justify, if you don't make your living that way ... or spend heaps of time rendering.

BUT ... If you should decide to give Avid a try, that poor little WS card will not be able to save you from all the "one more things" you will need to buy, before resonable functionality is attained ... What does that mean? In a nutshell, it means I do not like the way Avid does "business" (if you want to call it that). Don't expect anything like mutual benefit, there.

I HATE the whole APPLE thing but ... compared to AVID .... FCP is a gem and a Godsend. I now know that, I will have a $1,000,000 movie budget before I start buying all that crap ... and I'll sell it all on eBay, the day after the World-Wide Premier.

Adobe Premier is a much better way to go, if Vegas can't meet your needs. Vegas is all *I* need, for the forseeable future and tools like Magic Bullet and Boris products and elements of CS4 can pick up any slack.

If you DO move up to 4-2-2 colorspace and 50Mbits/sec+, then the i7-930 will be up to it (just barely).

I might go for the Quadro, but I am seriously thinking about the AMD route. I understand why you will not, but the truth is that those "bad old days" are long over and done with ... Unless you use chunky peanutbutter as thermal compound, that is.

SSDs ??? Are YOU KIDDING ME ? I want

(1) ** ~60 GB SSD for: Boot/System, Browser and utilities.
(2) ** ~80-128GB for : Apps, project management data and simple classic games (like HOYLE and Chess).
(3) ** ~30 GB SSD for: dedicated "render to" render destination drive
(4) ** ~128-256GB SSD for multimedia content files ("render from" source drive)
(5) ** ~1TB~2TB HDDs : For project archives and total system backup (and deep/voluminous archives for raw footage, etc.

This is what I like to call "Modular Applications Queing" or "Dedicated Caching" ... I can't believe you have yet done many day-long final output renders at highest quality, without noticing the poor HDDs chugging and clacking away.

To make matters worse, every time a drive needs to switch from one task to another, it has to flush all caches and move the heads to a different location and wait for the platter to come around and then to pipeline the new data, into the cache.

2 or 4 SSDs can do more to speed render times than the QuadroFX or more SYS mem can ... I think it would be a total farce to move to Socket 1366 and leave that enormous bottleneck in place. I'm really sick of drive failures, too. SSDs will not fail (pretty much ever) and when they do ... they just stop writing ... you can still read them (for a good while).

Still I'm still gonna guess that this system you have spec'd out, here, is about 4x faster at everything than the one you already own (and, prolly 7X faster than my P4(3.2c)Northwood/478 ) and IS surprisingly affordable.

As for me ?? Here is what I am starting to think (as an affordable philosophy) . . .

FACT#1: Computers and GPUs are still "just" catching up to HD video codecs and, in 2 or 3 years, any mainstream computer will be able to crunch 100Mbit/sec 2K intraframe codecs, without breakin' a sweat. Camcorders will also be coming down in price and bringing more feature and, since I do not have some huge cash-flow coming in from some syndicated project (just local events and performances and word-of-mouth weddings and indi music montages), then I am gonna hunker down and cheap out while I wait for pricing and power to catch up (pretty damn soon) ... RATHER than to BLOW MY WAD on tech that has not yet fully arrived.

It is more about finding a great story to tell or finding something of unique visual interest to share ... It is about actually getting off my ass (with my puny HV40) and getting to know it and how to set white balance manually, by wrote and being able to access audio levels, on the fly, without fumbling .... It is about actually getting the camera to the right place and at the right time and to aim it in the right direction and remembering to pack the right gear ... and to plan it all out . ... Even moreso, it is about learning to persuade and collaborate with others and to sweet-talk releases and permissions ... to inspire people to work for film credit and to show up and to stay with the project, when things get thankless and harsh. Begging enough food for the crew, and ALL that people stuff that technician's suck at.

So, my long-winded point is that , I am almost ready to go big league (bigger, anyway) and technology is almost ready to accomodate that, affordably (for my sustainable budget). I must let the PROJECT JUSTIFY THE GEAR and NOT have THE GEAR JUSTIFY THE PROJECT ... that is just bass-ackwards economics.

That is why I am considering getting a "throw-away compute core" and spend on crucial peripherals that might be transplanted in 3-5 years, or when my cash flow (from these endeavors) can totally justify it.

Just some economically philosophical considerations for the aspiring indy producers out there.

Great build, tho (with a few tweaks) ... ColdSleep was "dead-on" BTW.

= Al =

 
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Alvin:
Yeah, yeah, outdated and uninformed that’s me… But I’m willing to learn. :)
It’s been a year since I was researching any hardware or building any systems. And I’m pretty damn new to video editing field, so I’m definitely and extremely appreciating all the help you guys giving me.

Yes at home I have a gaming rig that will most likely satisfy all my video needs, but unfortunately I can’t bring it with me to my office and that’s where I need it.

PNY QuadroFX is promising to speed up encoding proses up to 6 times and that’s the only reason it’s in my build. Right now I have to use my Toshiba Satellite laptop for recording and encoding videos and it’s pain in the butt as you can imagine. And lately those videos becoming my main source of income. I definitely need a new system, and I need it now.

(1) ** ~60 GB SSD ~ $200
(2) ** ~80-128GB SSD ~ $200
(3) ** ~30 GB SSD ~ $120
(4) ** ~128-256GB SSD ~ $720
_________________________________
Total: $1220

Those SSD drives will eat up have of my budget, and I’m still not convinced it’s worth it, but you have my attention.

shortstuff_mt :
Thanks for nice combo deals.
GIGABYTE GA-X58A-UD3R looks very intriguing, but 15% negative feedback scares me a little bit.

Coldsleep:
Thanks a lot, man. Price of the system goes down and performance goes up (me like it).
 
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i wouldn't put any weight behind the Newegg reviews. Most of the people who leave bad reviews just don't know how to get it working. It's user error the majority of the time. I just read some of the reviews and it confirms my suspicion. A lot of noobs that couldn't figure out simple things like manually setting RAM values in the BIOS or that you can't move a hard drive from one system to another without a re-install. Gigabyte makes excellent boards and the GA-X58A-UD3R is no exception.
 
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Couple of related toyz that I would like to share ...

I have one of these ... amazing "overhead" and improvised crane shots.
I take it out with me whenever I an "out-and-about".

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/618351-REG/Manfrotto_561BHDV_561BHDV_Video_Monopod_with.html#specifications

And this is on my "very soon" list, doubles as a (DC) field mixer and recorder, as well as studio control surface and preamped/balanced inputs do 8 simultaneous inputs ... even has phantom power and fits in a sound-bag. Amazing flexibility ... unbelievable price.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--ZOMR16

= FWIW =

 
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REVIEWS !!!

Would you not agree that about 13% of humanity might qualify as morons?

What is more important is ... "are the literate ones all saying the same thing?".

... On the ssd thing ... try 40GB/60GB/30GB/128GB + 2x1TB-HDD(Rotate Hot Back)

The point of all that is to keep all your pointers hovering on the next operation and to keep everything moving CONTIGUOUSLY through all caches and pipelines ... "LIKE GREASE THRU A GOOSE". ... Applications specific storage pipelines for OS/APPS/Source Content/Output Writes ... all the apps have their own pipeline and all the data (generally) flowing contiguously in the same direction ... WAY less cache flushing and "priming latency" .

I ain't saying the QuadroFX and 12GB of RAM wont help a LOT, tho.

= Al =


= Alvin =
 
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shortstuff_mt :

Probably I will give it a try.


Alvin:

Only 13%?!? If I have to believe my eyes it’s more like 80% :bounce:
Nice Zoom :sol:

And I’m still not convinced. Is it really justified to spend $800-1200 on just hard drives?
 
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I have it figgered at just under $800 for the "lean" version. I remember when 5MB winchester drives cost twice that!

I am on no campaign to convince you. Just wanted to point that out. Some editors used to keep dedicated drives just for memory paging ...
... so the heads wouldn't have to move.

I WILL say this ... all other drives aside, your BOOT/SYSTEM drive SHOULD (absolutely) be an SSD if, for no other reason than you won't want to reload the OS and re-initiallize your entire environment, later, just to make the switch .... THEN ... (only then) ... your boot HDD will crash and you will bite the bullet.

Why not do that little bit, right now, and enjoy lightning boot times (12secs?) and extremely snappy browser apps, and any other apps you can fit onto it (always leave 20% of an SSD free ... ... Trim/Shuffle space).

Now, if you were to buy another 6GB RAM, instead of a boot SSD ... eh ... I'd (just personally) hsve a difficult time respecting your logic.

How much is a 64GB SSD? Not that bad, as a % total budget.

18 Months from now, God(and Moore) only knows how cheap SSDs will be !!! At least you won't have to re-install your system from scratch and, if it was OEM Builder's version ... You will have to buy another copy AND THAT pays for your boot drive, right there !!

How will I survive if I cannot get you to see logic??? I'll get along ... some ... how. :cry: .
 
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Alvin:

It seems we are getting our information regarding SSD drives from different sources.

How much is a 64GB SSD? Not that bad, as a % total budget.
Click to expand...

I definitely agree one drive sounds much more reasonable and affordable than 4 or 5.

So, main reasons you think it is worth spending extra $$$ for SSD drives are:

1. No need to reinstall OS.
2. Faster OS booting and application loading times.
3. Durability (less risk of data lose).
4. Overall faster performance.

Am I right? Did I miss something?
 
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Mostly 2 & 4.

As far as #1, I think that Alvin was just saying that if you buy an SSD later, you won't have to transfer everything over? That'll save you, what, 2-4 hours of work? Meh.

Regarding #3, there is less risk of data loss due to mechanical failure. Mostly because the disk doesn't have any moving parts. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't back up important files. And there's no guarantee that you won't lose something due to an OS error, due to an electrical surge, or due to user error. The SSD is mostly just going to make your programs and OS respond more quickly.

Don't get me wrong, an SSD will make your computing experience more enjoyable in that everything (that's installed on the SSD) will load very very quickly. An SSD provides the most noticeable boost in system performance compared to almost any other modern component. That doesn't mean that you should go out and get 5 of them.

While it's quite possible that running a bunch of SSDs would make everything super fast, it's hardly economical. Sure, if you have $10k to throw around, go for it. If your budget is $2k, maybe buy one and put your OS and a few apps on it. If you've got enough money laying around to buy a few SSDs, instead of buying a bunch of weird sizes, why wouldn't you just buy 6-10 same-size drives (128 GB perhaps?) and create a bunch of RAID containers? 2 in RAID 1 for the OS, 2 in RAID 0 for your scratch space, 4 in RAID 10 for your source & apps, and 2 more to use as coasters...or whatever.

Not that having different disk dedicated for certain tasks is a bad idea, but 1x 60 GB here and 1x 30 GB there just seems needlessly complex if you've got that much cash to spend.
 
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OK...Ok... I relent.

SSDs are too expensive to just "play around with" (at *this* point) and I should not have even brought up more than one drive, in this config, because of the budget. I sometimes get sucked into gear lust and architectural perfectionism ... "how good can it possible be?".

BUT, Here are MY reasons for doing the boot thing ...

1) Sure ... speed, integrity, lower heat, lower power, bragging rights (meh).

2) Speeding up system administration is a no brainer ... all that fast memory and cpu/gpu power sits idle, while waiting for the system to access the next addministrative module and, if you think about it, that is also why more system RAM can help so much, because it reduces the number of SLOW disk accesses .. duh!.

3) Oem Win7 can only be validated ONCE, then you have to buy another copy.

4) Disagree with ColdSleep on this one ... I spend a lot of time doing custom installs and driver updates and tweaking windows to get things optimized and just how I like them. All those security updates and "one time" tweaks that are long forgotten ... personalization, etc. Plus every app and piece of HW has to be registered in windows ... I am not as disciplined or fastidious as some ... When my boot drive goes down, it is a major MAJOR bummer, like a car crash. I never have fully recovered from any of my major system crashes ... I usually just try to start over and usually cant find all my original install disks (even if pirate protection does not think I'm a scammer for the new install) ... and all those freebe apps and utilities and codecs I dnld like LAME and AudioGrabber and Audacity, etc., ad nauseum.
In short ... it ain't no 4 hour picnic ... A crash is what it sounds like ... Injurious!

5) The cost of a new copy of OEM win7 can pay for the SSD ... also, the money you WOULD have put into your "cheap-out" rattle-trap HDD, can go to the SSD instead.

6) You CAN use them as coasters! And baseballs, and bowling pins ... see the pics in my previous link!

7) IF you DON'T go with an HDD for boot, AND ... If you DO add other SSDs later ... THEN, you won't realize anywhere NEAR the anticipated performance boost BECAUSE the SLOW HDD will be dragging the WHOLE system down with each "eternal" system admin drive access. No joy THERE.

8) Nothing .... I just like the number 8 .

9) IF you do build w/HDD and it DOES crash in 3 yrs, you are still gonna have to replace it and go to ALL the time and expense of new-win7, new boot drive, and new hair implants ... why not just forgo that ... $150 for a KINGSTON 64GB (RELABELLED INTEL) drive ...

Why are you making me work so hard ?! Isn't ALL this obvious ?!

= pshaw! =


 
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AND ... As far as "Lots of SSDs being unduely complex" . . .

Did you watch the YouToob video ??? The guy had 24 SSDs dangling by their data cables, in a big knarly bundle and jumped up and down on a trampoline, while access was occurring ........
................................ Try THAT with you dad's HDD !

= snore =
 
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Absolutely untrue. OEM copies of Windows are tied to a specific motherboard.

You can reinstall multiple times, as long as you don't change out the motherboard.

In some cases, if you have lost a mobo due to a hardware failure, you can call up MS and have them provide you with a new key, if you can convince them you're not just upgrading for the heck of it.

i am in no way disagreeing that SSDs are robust and you can do tons of crazy things with them. I meant that buying multiple sizes seemed overly complex. Why not just standardize (the size of the drives) a little bit and reduce the complexity of the system? If you need to have different sizes, why not carve them up logically with the OS or with RAID, rather than buying different physical sizes?
 
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