Question New build, new fan hub - - - - how to deal with PWM and DC, and what fans to use ?

maraxion

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Feb 17, 2013
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Hi.
So iv got an phanteks enthoo pro case with an asus card with a 4 pin header. I then ordered a cheap fan hub the "arctic case fan hub". Said to operate 10 fans with 3 or 4 pins, speed adjusted by the fan in slot 1 on unit. But offcource 3 pins cant do pwm, what then?
Hub connector info:

Now the 4 standard fans in the phanteks enthoo pro is 3 pins. Im then guessing those are DC fans? Should I not use them?
I do however have some 4 pin fans, would that be smarter to run those with the hub?


My current fans i could use, ideally id like 4 or 3 running:
4 pins 140mm:
2 cepter fans
1 corsair fan

3pins 140mm:
4 standard phanteks
1 "premium" phanteks


Would a dc fan in pwm mode be bad? Or putting a 4 pin fan in position 1 on the hub and the rest 3 pins would matter?

What im after is a build where the fans seamless adjust speed by the heat of the rig. So for office work its quiet, and gaming it ramps up when needed.
 
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Aeacus

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Would a dc fan in pwm mode be bad?
3-pin DC fan, in PWM mode, still works, but it will run 100% at all times and there is no way to reduce the fan speed. So, generally, this is looked as "bad".

What im after is a build where the fans seamless adjust speed by the heat of the rig.
You should have sense cable from the fan hub to the MoBo, right?

If so, you can set from BIOS that this fan hub uses DC mode. And you can connect all fans (3-pin and 4-pin) to the fan hub, whereby them all are controlled by DC. And from BIOS, just put that fan header to follow the CPU temp. Or make a custom (gradual) fan curve.

Only issue with connecting the fan zoo to the fan hub is, that not all fans have the same max RPM, right? This would make different fans to spin at different RPM, depending on the voltage amount they get from the fan hub. But other than that, there are no issues.
 
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Paperdoc

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3-pin fans are the older style and the ONLY way to control their speed is by varying the VOLTAGE supplied to them from header Pin #2. So they are called Voltage Control Mode fans.

4-pin fans are a different design called PWM Mode fans. In this system the Voltage from Pin #2 is always the full 12 VDC, plus there is a new PWM signal sent to the fan on Pin #4. The fan has a special chip inside it that uses that PWM signal to modify flow of current from the fixed 12 VDC supply line through the motor windings to change the speed. However, IF you connect such a fan to a 3-pin header it gets NO PWM signal so the chip cannot modify, BUT the Voltage on Pin #2 is now VARYING, so the fan's speed CAN be controlled this way - just no "ideal".

If you connect a 3-pin fan to a 4-pin header sending out those new PWM signals, the fan does not receive the PWM signal from Pin #4, but it has no chip so it could not use that, anyway. From Pin #2 it gets a constant 12 VDC supply, so it always runs full speed.

Today virtually all mobo headers have 4 pins, BUT in the BIOS Setup options for the headers, each can be set to use the older 3-pin Voltage Control Mode of signals, or the newer 4-pin PWM Mode. So you CAN use both types of fans, BUT you need to make them into groups - one group of 3-pin fans on a header set to Voltage Control Mode, and another group on a header set to use PWM Mode.

There are TWO types of devices used to connect more than one fan to a header, SPLITTERS and HUBS. Sellers use those names interchangeably but they are NOT the same! A SPLITTER has two types of connections: one goes to a mobo header to get inputs, and the others (two or more) are outputs for plugging in fans. ALL power for the fans comes from the header, and most fan headers can supply up to 1.0 A max current to the total load connected. Every fan should have its max current draw specified, and typically those are 0.10 to 0.25 A max per fan. So you can connect three or four (sometimes more) fans to a single header using a SPLITTER as long as you verify the max current load involved. A SPLITTER may look like a collection of cable "arms", or like a small circuit board, or like a closed box with output sockets recessed in holes.

A HUB is a different device, and it may look like any of those three types above, so you can NOT tell the difference by appearance. It also has one input (from a header) and several output connectors. BUT it has one ADDED connection that goes to a SATA or 4-pin Molex power output from the PSU. This device gets all power for its fans from the PSU that way, and draws no fan power from the host header, so the header's 1.0 A current limit does not apply. HOWEVER, the Hub supplies that fixed 12 VDC power to Pin #2 of ALL its outputs, and relays to all its fans the PWM signal it gets from the mobo host header. So a HUB can ONLY work with a header that IS using the new PWM Mode of signals, and can control the speed ONLY of 4-pin PWM fans. All its outputs provide just the new PWM mode signals, so they can NOT control the speed of any 3-pin fan.

Thus, you CAN use a HUB with 4-pin fans as long as the header it uses is set to the new PWM Mode. For 3-pin fans you MUST use only a SPLITTER connected to a header using the older Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode), and then you must verify the current draw of that fan group. Of course, if necessary you can make TWO groups of 3-pin fans and use two Splitters to connect the groups to separate headers, as a way to spread the load out for a LOT of fans. Note that trying to use a HUB connected to a header set to the older Voltage Control Mode will NOT work because it MUST have a PWM signal to relay to its fans. Moreover, even connected that way the Hub can NOT control the speed of a 3-pin fan that has no special chip. I am aware of ONE unusual fan HUB by Phanteks that CAN work with both header signal type and CAN control the speed of both fan types, but it is unique in these capabilities.

Every fan generates a speed signal consisting of pulses to send back to the host header, where the pulses are counted to provide a speed reading. However, the header can deal with a pulse train arriving from only ONE fan. So any Splitter or Hub will send back to the host header the speed signal from the fan connected to only ONE of of its outputs, and ignore all the others. You will never "see" the speeds of the "others" anywhere. You are to assume that those others are running at comparable speeds, although that detail varies somewhat when you connect different fan models. But what really matters, anyway, is NOT the speed, but the AIR FLOW each fan generates. In fact, the header does NOT use the speed signal it gets to control its fan(s). Its control is based entirely on a TEMPERATURE measurement, not on fan speed. BUT the header has an important second function: it does monitor that speed for NO speed, indicating fan FAILURE. If it detects failure you get a warning on screen so you know there is a problem to fix. In the particular case of the CPU_FAN header, it will take more drastic action up to shutting you down if it believes there is NO cooling for the CPU chip. This does mean that when you use a Splitter of Hub the header can NOT monitor the speed signals of ALL its fans for FAILURE, so YOU should check all your fans from time to time to verify they are still working.

In a Splitter or Hub that looks like a collection of cable arms, look closely at the output male connectors. Only ONE of them will have all 4 pins. That is the ONLY output that will send its fan's speed back to the host header. All other outputs are missing Pin#3 so they cannot send back a speed signal. For a Splitter or Hub that looks like a circuit board or a closed box, ONE of the outputs will be identified (often marked as the CPU port) as the only one that sends the speed signal back. You do NOT need to plug your CPU cooler unit into this, but you DO need to connect one fan to this port so a speed signal is sent to the host header.

OP, for you to use all (or most) of your fans, you will need to create at least two groups. One will have 3-pin fans and a Splitter on a mobo header set to Voltage Control Mode. The other can use another Splitter or Hub to connect 4-pin fans to a header set to PWM Mode. I assume all these fans are for case ventilation use, and we are NOT talking now about any CPU cooling units. For us to help you with the details, we need to know:
1. What is the maker and model of your mobo?
2. The model of that "arctic case fan hub". Does it need a connection to a PSU power output or not?
3. Maker and models of all the fans. Or at least, examine each fan for a spec of max AMP current, or maybe max WATTS of power. Tell us those specs so we can check the current limits.
 
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Aeacus

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So a HUB can ONLY work with a header that IS using the new PWM Mode of signals, and can control the speed ONLY of 4-pin PWM fans.

For 3-pin fans you MUST use only a SPLITTER connected to a header using the older Voltage Control Mode (aka DC Mode), and then you must verify the current draw of that fan group.
Are you saying that DC hubs, like Thermaltake Commander FX,
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Thermaltake-Commander-SATA-Powered-AC-007-AN1NAN-A1/dp/B00O5VX6UQ

or Phanteks fan hub,
amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Phanteks-PWM-Fan-Controller-PH-PWHUB_01/dp/B00M0R05WE

does not exist and are just myths? :unsure:
Since according to you, when one has 3-pin fans, one has to use only splitter, whereby there are no fan hubs for 3-pin fans, since all fan hubs out there are solely for 4-pin PWM fans?
You also make it sound like there are no fan controllers for 3-pin fans either. :rolleyes:
 

Paperdoc

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I was unaware of the Thermaltake Commander FX unit, but I see it was released about 10 years ago and is no longer available in North America at least. It is ONLY for 3-pin fans. I could not find any manual for it. But from the connections it has (NO input port from a mobo header) and one old user review it APPEARS able only to deliver full constant 12 VDC power to all 10 of its fans with NO ability to control their speed. You can use a lot of 3-pin fans not by a mobo header's current limit, but all at full speed.

That unit has been replaced by the Thermaltake Commander FP now which operates exactly like almost all other 4-pin PWM Hubs. It must have a PWM signal input from the mobo via its port #1, and can control the speeds of only 4-pin PWM fans at its nine other ports.

The Phanteks Model PH-PWHUB unit is for 3-pin fans only. It also is no longer available widely. It was perhaps the first "translator" Hub because it required a PWM signal from a mobo header, but then used that to create six Voltage Control Mode 3-pin output ports. So this COULD power AND control speed for 3-pin fans provided it had a PWM signal from a mobo 4-pin header. Connecting a 4-pin fan to it is a bit tricky because the 4-hole female connector does not fit into the hole in the box for a recessed 3-pin male port. But it can be done, and then the 4-pin fan operates under its backwards compatibility feature like a 3-pin fan.

At the END of my seventh paragraph above that begins, "Thus, you CAN use a HUB ..." I said, "I am aware of ONE unusual fan HUB by Phanteks ...". That is their current product Model PH-PWHUB02, the Universal Fan Controller. It requires power via a SATA power output from the PSU and a connection to any mobo fan header for input of control signals. It will accept either a Voltage Control Mode signal (3-pin fan type) or a PWM Mode signal (4-pin fan type) and will translate either of those into BOTH signal systems. It has eight output ports. Of these, three are 3-pin Voltage Control Mode outputs, four are 4-pin PWM Mode outputs, and the last with white markings will automatically adjust its MODE according to what the connected fan does. This white port also is the one that sends its fan's speed signal back to the host mobo header. So this unit deserves the name "Universal" because you can use a mix of the two fan types no matter which type of mobo input signal is available.

Of course there ARE third-party Controllers available for 3-pin and 4-pin fans. To my knowledge all of them operate completely independent from any mobo header and will not accept a header input signal. Also they can not access the temperature signal of a sensor on the mobo or in the CPU chip. So the simpler ones allow the user to control its fans' speeds (often each fan individually, which one mobo header and Hub cannot do) using a manually-set speed controls, and usually also displaying the speed of each individual fan. There may be some that allow control by on-sceeen displays and a software utility rather then physical knobs or sliders - I'm not sure. The fanciest models include their own temperature probes that you can affix anywhere you like, and then you can use those measurements for automatic control of fan speed. In doing that, YOU have to figure out WHERE a sensor should be mounted and WHAT is the proper temperature target for that site? From what I've seen of these units, for simplicity in the marketplace and keeping the diversity (and costs) of the product line down, most of them actually output signals on their ports only in the older Voltage Control Mode, and rely on the backwards compatibility feature of new 4-pin fans for them to work.
 
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Aeacus

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Tt Commander FX and Phanteks universal hubs aren't the only 3-pin fan hubs out there.
Some Google-Fu and found others, that you can buy at current date;

MOLEX to 3x 3-pin hub, Egg: https://www.newegg.com/p/1W7-005X-00021
SATA to 3x 3pin hub, Egg: https://www.newegg.com/p/1W7-005X-00022
SATTA to 8x 3-pin hub, Egg: https://www.newegg.com/p/1W7-0053-00005
MOLEX + 12VDC to 4x 3-pin hub, Egg: https://www.newegg.com/p/1W7-005X-00023

Though, this much is true that making 4-pin PWM hub is far easier, than 3-pin DC hub that takes the RPM adjustment from MoBo. Perhaps the Phanteks universal hub is the only one of it's kind.
 

Paperdoc

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I agree those four devices all will supply power from a PSU source to several 3-pin fans. And of course, you CAN plug any 4-pin fan into one of those ports and it WILL receive power and speed control. None of these offers any way for automated control based on external signals - their speed control is solely by manual adjustment of the knob on the board. The differences among them are in the number of outputs and the type of input power connector.

In terms of labels, one CAN call these HUBS in the sense that each is a central point of connection for power and control. Personally I prefer to use the label "Hub" for ones that DO also allow control by signals from a mobo headers. In my way of using terms, devices that do these two jobs based on manual (or even internally-automated control) without use of mobo info or signals I prefer to call third-part FAN CONTROLLERS because they do their own control function.

I use the label "Splitter" for a simpler device that merely connects all its fans in parallel to the output of one mobo fan header, and has NO way to acquire and distribute power from another source. It "splits" the host header output to all its fans.

There is NO universally-agreed way to use these labels. I use them this way to help distinguish among them according to their functions, but others do not use the labels this way.
 

Aeacus

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In terms of labels, one CAN call these HUBS in the sense that each is a central point of connection for power and control. Personally I prefer to use the label "Hub" for ones that DO also allow control by signals from a mobo headers. In my way of using terms, devices that do these two jobs based on manual (or even internally-automated control) without use of mobo info or signals I prefer to call third-part FAN CONTROLLERS because they do their own control function.

I use the label "Splitter" for a simpler device that merely connects all its fans in parallel to the output of one mobo fan header, and has NO way to acquire and distribute power from another source. It "splits" the host header output to all its fans.

There is NO universally-agreed way to use these labels. I use them this way to help distinguish among them according to their functions, but others do not use the labels this way.
I have different definition of the terms;

Splitter - usually Y-splitter (for 2x fans), but can also be up to 5x fan one. Uses one MoBo fan header and doesn't have any additional power source, other than MoBo fan header. Only able to control all fans in sync.

Fan hub - similar to splitter but with a key difference of having supplementary power connector from PSU. Key difference is being only able to control all fans at once (in sync), just like Splitter.

Fan controller - similar to hub, but with a key difference of individual fan control. Can be either manual fan controller, standalone from MoBo (e.g Thermaltake Commander F6 RGB, NZXT Sentry 3 and the like), or has dedicated software by connecting to MoBo via USB 2.0 internal header (e.g Corsair iCUE Commander Pro, NZXT Grid+ V3).
 
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