Build Advice New build questions ?

[Richard1234]

Based on extensive advice from Aeacus on another thread, I have purchased all the components for a new PC, listed below, where I give more detailed info later in this posting.

MSI ACE mobo
AMD 7950X3D CPU
RTX 4060 GPU
Corsair DDR5 RAM
Enthoo Pro case
Prime TX-1600 PSU
Dark Rock Pro 5 cooler
Noctua A14 fans

This thread is meant for ongoing questions and discussion towards that build, where I am looking for advice to doing the build optimally, the first question is: what are some optimal first steps?

where I wish to avoid installing in the wrong sequence where some installed items might obstruct other items, and I then have to uninstall them in order to install the other items.

I was advised in the earlier thread to read the mobo manual fully, which I have just begun. I decided to post the initial circumstance now, and then to gradually add different questions in dribs and drabs, as I think the work is a bit involved.

reading the manual, it recommends wearing an ESD wrist strap, some questions: how are these used? and any recommended ones?

note the configuration isnt just some arbitrary configuration, but is based on very specific decision constraints:

the build was selected to minimise noise, keep power demand under control to avoid the noise of cooling excessive heat, to focus just on AMD going for multithreaded multicore and to go for the largest affordable CPU L1 cache size, with the memory to maximise size without compromising speed or price per GB, where 96GB looks optimal for this config, the 192GB options were too slow, and keeping overall costs under control in particular for the graphics card going for the 4060 instead of the 4090 which was vastly more expensive, and going for the Ace rather than the Godlike which was approx twice as expensive for small gain. The general principle was to maximise everything, but to keep the total cost, heat and noise under control, and avoid stuff that I am unlikely to use IF the total system price rockets disproportionately. If the item price rockets but the total price doesnt that is ok.

Low noise was a higher priority than cost, luckily quieter options are often cheaper! I went for EATX to maximise expansion options, where expansion is more important than small size, to have swathes of sockets and bays where I can connect a ton of peripherals and have spares if some wear out.

For the mobo I wanted faster sockets, but to avoid "either-or" socketing, where using the one socket means you cant use the other socket.

the plan also was to avoid upgrading any component in the future, to try to get everything correct at the outset.

I have also purchased various auxiliary items which arent mentioned in the title, but which I might ask about later. eg a 10 hub for USB3, various extender cables. and I am using my existing LG monitor, which I intend to eventually replace, so might ask about replacements. but the priority is building the brand new computer tower.


list of full product names, and purchase links:
tower case: Phanteks Enthoo Pro Tempered Glass ATX Full Tower Case
mobo: MSI MEG X670E ACE EATX AM5 Motherboard
CPU: AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D 4.2 GHz 16-Core Processor
CPU Cooler: Be Quiet! Dark Rock Pro 5 CPU Cooler
memory: Corsair Vengeance RGB DDR5, 2x 48GB (96GB), 6600 Mhz, CL32, 9.697ns
gfx card: MSI GeForce RTX 4060 GAMING X 8G Graphics Card
M.2 drive: Samsung 990 Pro 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive
PSU: SeaSonic PRIME TX-1600 ATX 3.0 1600 W 80+ Titanium Certified Fully Modular ATX Power Supply
7 fans: Noctua A14 industrialPPC-2000 107.42 CFM 140 mm Fan
USB internal header

photos of the components so far:
main components,
views of the tower: view from above, side view showing hinged transparent door, view of the back of the tower, view of the supplied front of the tower, extras supplied with the tower
photo of mobo box, photo of back of box giving product info, view of opened box
photo of memory product box
photo of thermal grease product

 

[Aeacus]

Summoned again and now i'm here.

the first question is: what are some optimal first steps?

Initial step: You need holy bible of PCs (MoBo manual).
While there is quick installation guide included with MoBo, i suggest you download the full (multi-language) manual from here,
link: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#manual

Since i'll be referring to the manual quite a bit.

So, once you have the manual, read it. Fully.
Once you've done reading it, read it again.

MoBo manual is the single most important piece of documentation about any PC. Hence why i like to refer to it as: "holy bible of PCs".

Assembly​

Before you install the MoBo inside the PC case, breadboarding is needed to do. While not required per se, this step will confirm if CPU-MoBo-RAM combo works. Since if neither of the three won't, it's far easier to disassemble them all; compared to when you've already installed the MoBo into the PC case and done the full cable management as well.

Also, before handling the components of a PC, make sure you're grounded. E.g touch any metal pipe that you know goes to the ground (central heating, water pipe etc). Also, avoid standing on carpet, especially when wearing socks.

Oh, as of where to assemble the PC, good sturdy table would do, e.g dining table.

1. Breadboarding​

1.1. Unbox the MoBo and place it on any cardboard box. MoBo retail box does fine.

1.2. Unbox the RAM, open up 2nd and 4th slot clips and install the RAM. MoBo manual, page 8, shows how to do it. And page 30 has further info on about correct slots when you have 2 DIMMs (which you do).

1.3 Unbox the CPU and install it on the MoBo. MoBo manual, page 6, step 1, 2 and 3 show how to do it. And further reading from page 29.
Note: While MoBo manual shows installing CPU and CPU cooler before installing the RAM, but in your case, due to your Be Quiet! CPU cooler, it is advised to install RAM 1st, since CPU cooler will overhang/cover RAM slots, making RAM installation far harder. Hence why install RAM before CPU and CPU cooler.

1.4 Unbox CPU cooler and follow the instructions on CPU cooler manual on how to install it.
If no paper manual isn't included with CPU cooler (it should though), you can download it from here,
link: https://www.bequiet.com/en/cpucooler/4466

Scroll down to "Characteristics" part and select "Downloads" tab.

With RAM installed, CPU installed, CPU cooler installed, "PC" is in operational state. Still, it needs a bit more to get it working.

1.5 Locate the USB type-C to HDMI cable and plug the USB type-C to the back of the MoBo, into correct USB slot. Namely that USB port that is marked "Item 10" in MoBo manual. Refer to page 23 and 24 to locate it. HDMI part of it goes to the monitor.

1.6 Connect KB and mice to MoBo USB slots at the back of the MoBo. Doesn't matter much which ports you use.

1.7 Unbox PSU and locate 24-pin ATX and two 4/8-pin EPS cables. Put the PSU near/next to MoBo, PSU fan facing upwards. Connect 24-pin and two 4/8-pin cables. I prefer to connect those to the PSU 1st and then connect to MoBo. But doing it vice-versa won't hurt either.
Make sure PSU switch is at the "Off" position. Connect the power cable from PSU to the mains.

End result should look similar to this:
(This is my Skylake build breadboarded, when i bought the initial components.)

Now, "PC" doesn't have GPU or SSD for OS, but it doesn't need them. Since the idea is to make sure CPU-MoBo-RAM work and you can boot into UEFI (BIOS).

2. 1st power-on​

When you're ready to power on the build;

2.1. Flip the switch at the back of the PSU.

2.2. Press the "Power" button on MoBo itself to power on the "PC". MoBo manual, page 55, shows where this button is located.

With this, you should be seeing some life from your assembled components, like CPU fan starting to spin, RAM LEDs light up, other lights lit up on MoBo.

If you don't see any image on monitor, despite MoBo being powered on, look what code the DEBUG LED is showing. To locate the DEBUG LED, look MoBo manual page 61.
Pages 61 to 65 has a chart of all the DEBUG LED values and what they mean.

Now, it may get seemingly stuck on either 15, 16, 17, 18 or 2E, but wait since this is memory training and takes a bit of time. Shouldn't take more than 5 mins though. MoBo can do the memory training twice, but once POST is complete, PC should boot directly to UEFI (BIOS).

2.3. Once you see UEFI on your monitor, GREAT, the most nerve-wrecking part is over and you've confirmed that CPU-MoBo-RAM work. You can then look around in UEFI if you like but otherwise, exit UEFI. Since there is no OS, PC restarts and does boot back to UEFI.

2.4. To power off the PC, while in UEFI, either press the power button on MoBo, or flip the switch at the back of the PSU. (I prefer flipping the switch.)

For redundancy, you can turn the breadboarded setup back on again, to make sure all works. Just flip the PSU switch back to "On" position and power on the build via Power button on MoBo. If all is well, you'll end up back in UEFI. With this confirmed 2nd time, power off the build again, for further assembly.

Regarding further assembly, you can go ahead and install the MoBo into the PC case if you like, but i personally prefer to install OS 1st, since when something should happen with hardware, it's easier to disassemble it.
I can write the follow-up steps too, if you like, but this (breadboarding), is the most crucial part of building any PC.

 

[Aeacus]

reading the manual, it recommends wearing an ESD wrist strap, some questions: how are these used? and any recommended ones?

Current day ESD wrist straps go over your hand like a hand band, while cable comes out of it, which can be connected to a ground point.

For example, GamersNexus sells one such item, which can be used as standalone or in conjunction with their mod mat,
link: https://store.gamersnexus.net/products/esd-wrist-strap-common-ground-point-cable

As of how to use one, GamersNexus also has good, in-depth video about it, that you can watch;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54ifTCgtN4

At 10:09 is the exact part where it is described how proper ESD wrist strap works.

 

[Richard1234]

Current day ESD wrist straps go over your hand like a hand band, while cable comes out of it, which can be connected to a ground point.

For example, GamersNexus sells one such item, which can be used as standalone or in conjunction with their mod mat,
link: https://store.gamersnexus.net/products/esd-wrist-strap-common-ground-point-cable

As of how to use one, GamersNexus also has good, in-depth video about it, that you can watch;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m54ifTCgtN4

At 10:09 is the exact part where it is described how proper ESD wrist strap works.

many thanks for the info, in case I need to order more than one item, I will delay making the purchase.

I have been studying the mobo manual further, and in parallel have been looking at some of the tower manual.

with the mobo manual, on p12 it talks of a torque screwdriver, there is a video there, where it shows the torque screwdriver at this point of the video. where you have to set that to a specific setting in the video.

I not only dont have one, I havent heard of one before!

any recommended ones to go for? preferably despatched from the UK to avoid delays.

I want to maybe accumulate a shopping list of extras before then purchasing these, where maybe some items can be a combined purchase to minimise waiting around for deliveries or minimise number of treks to the amazon lockers.

so I probably will try to read the entire mobo manual with questions, and the tower manual before then purchasing extras.

Also, before handling the components of a PC, make sure you're grounded. E.g touch any metal pipe that you know goes to the ground (central heating, water pipe etc). Also, avoid standing on carpet, especially when wearing socks.

if I install in the room with factory varnished bamboo flooring, are you saying to just momentarily touch the metal pipe? rather than trying to install things with one hand with the other hand touching the pipe?

each time I move a foot to a different part of the room, do I have to touch a pipe again before handling the mobo and components?

what is best? barefoot? flip flops? plimsolls? socks?

the kitchen and bathroom I think are unsuitable because of humidity, the corridor has modern vinyl flooring, the other rooms have carpet flooring.

I think thus the only suitable floor is the room with bamboo flooring, slightly off topic: the flooring is this kind of flooring which is really great and will resist say a hammer better than oak and is half the price of oak, but you must never use water: I just use a broom. It looks like pine but in fact is a ginormous grass, which also means it doesnt get the pests that affect wood eg woodworm and woodlice. also as it is tropical, the temperate pests dont understand it!

 

[Aeacus]

with the mobo manual, on p12 it talks of a torque screwdriver

Page 12? You sure? Since the manual i downloaded has it on Page 10.

I not only dont have one, I havent heard of one before!

Torque screwdriver is what the name says it is. It allows to tighten the screws (or bolts) to certain force, set by user, before the mechanism releases the screwdriver, so that whatever you screwed in, is torqued to the right spec.

And while you may not have heard of torque screwdriver, you surely have seen torque power drill, right?
E.g my battery powered power drill (Makita BDF343) has gear selection wheel on it, from where i can adjust the torque break-off point.

Mine looks like so, where the black numbers on silver ring is the gear selection wheel;

That is....IF you even know what battery powered power drill is.


Now, for MoBo screws, it doesn't matter that much if the screws are torqued exactly to the spec, since what standoff screws are supposed to do, is to hold MoBo in place inside the PC case.
I've screwed in all the screws by hand, but not used my full hand force to tighten the screws, since you can easily either strip the screw from threads, or mess up the threads that you can not unscrew it afterwards. Instead, i've screwed the screws in until screw doesn't freely rotate anymore and i feel good resistance. And then, a small touch of force to make sure the screw is tight. Of course, i can't describe the exact torque force of my hand. It's just something i've learnt with experience over the years, to know how much force to use.

any recommended ones to go for? preferably despatched from the UK to avoid delays.

Like i said, i don't use (or have) torque screwdriver. For that, i have my Makita power drill with gear selection.

As of which one to choose from, well, i'm not a mechanic and can't tell which is best. Thus, need to look comparison videos, like this one;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymvUUKoRxQ

if I install in the room with factory varnished bamboo flooring, are you saying to just momentarily touch the metal pipe? rather than trying to install things with one hand with the other hand touching the pipe?

Momentary touch will do. Unless you plan to buy the ESD strap to ground yourself at all times.
And few touches in-between as well. E.g ground yourself, handle the MoBo (install components), but when you step away to unpack some other component, before touching the MoBo again, momentary touch again to ground yourself. At least that's what i've been doing when assembling/servicing my PCs.

what is best? barefoot? flip flops? plimsolls? socks?

I've done my PC assembly/servicing barefoot. And on top of solid oak hardwood floor we have in our flat.

Socks create static charge in you, especially cotton ones, more so when walking on vinyl.

Flip-flops depend on the flip-flop type, since there are ESD proof/certified flip-flops out there, that will not create static charge in you when you wear those.
E.g i have Solid Gear Atlantic "flip-flops" (specs) that meet EN 20345:2011 standard and have S1P, SRC, ESD and HRO certifications. Meaning that while i wear those, i won't generate static charge in my body due to friction between footwear and flooring.

I think thus the only suitable floor is the room with bamboo flooring

Looks like the best flooring in your home, where to assemble the PC, to avoid static charge buildup in yourself.

 

[Richard1234]

Page 12? You sure? Since the manual i downloaded has it on Page 10.

it is both p12 and p10!

each page of a PDF has 2 page numbers! the one page number is the PDF viewer page number, where the numbering is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, .... and this is an "absolute" numbering, p12 for the above

the other page number is the number on the actual document, p10 for the above!


advantage of the PDF viewer number, is if viewing on the computer eg typically with Adobe Acrobat, you can just enter that number and get to the page, and it will work for unnumbered documents, eg say you convert some jpegs to a pdf.

with the mobo manual, if you enter 12 for the page number with Adobe Acrobat, it will load the correct page. if I told you p10, its a lot more hassle to locate.

I tend to keep to the absolute page numbering, as it makes it easier to calculate how many pages for a printout, and eg if you just want to print out a subset, eg a chapter of a manual, or say just one language of the mobo manual, you need the absolute page numbers for the print dialogue!

eg the page numbers on the mobo document start again for each language, ie there are many page 10's!

so if you want to view the french p10, you just give 155 as the page number to Adobe Acrobat.

the page number on the document is of course better if you print out the document, but it can get complicated eg the initial part of a document could be i, ii, iii, iv, v, vi, vii, viii, ix, x, xi etc.

and with the mobo manual, the first 2 cover pages dont have a document page number!

Torque screwdriver is what the name says it is. It allows to tighten the screws (or bolts) to certain force, set by user, before the mechanism releases the screwdriver, so that whatever you screwed in, is torqued to the right spec.

And while you may not have heard of torque screwdriver, you surely have seen torque power drill, right?
E.g my battery powered power drill (Makita BDF343) has gear selection wheel on it, from where i can adjust the torque break-off point.

Mine looks like so, where the black numbers on silver ring is the gear selection wheel;

That is....IF you even know what battery powered power drill is.

I have a mains powered drill by Agojama, which does have torque control but doesnt have a gauge number, you just have to guess! I have an unused battery powered one by Bosch, but that just has 1,2,3,4,5 written. the manual is factory sealed, so I dont want to open it as factory sealed stuff is more valuable on ebay!

Now, for MoBo screws, it doesn't matter that much if the screws are torqued exactly to the spec, since what standoff screws are supposed to do, is to hold MoBo in place inside the PC case.
I've screwed in all the screws by hand, but not used my full hand force to tighten the screws, since you can easily either strip the screw from threads, or mess up the threads that you can not unscrew it afterwards. Instead, i've screwed the screws in until screw doesn't freely rotate anymore and i feel good resistance. And then, a small touch of force to make sure the screw is tight. Of course, i can't describe the exact torque force of my hand. It's just something i've learnt with experience over the years, to know how much force to use.


Like i said, i don't use (or have) torque screwdriver. For that, i have my Makita power drill with gear selection.

As of which one to choose from, well, i'm not a mechanic and can't tell which is best. Thus, need to look comparison videos, like this one;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hymvUUKoRxQ

thinking about it, I'd like to get the one used in the video, as that is endorsed by MSI, and scrutinising some video frames later it is a Bestool Kanon 12LTDK, with gauge giving KGfCM,

no luck with amazon for that, but on ebay many Bestool Kanon's, some second hand but not that specific one. some start at 4 kgfcm which is too high,

a further complicating factor is some have their gauge in KGfCM and some have N.m,
and to complicate further, conversion is imprecise where 1kgfcm = 0.0980665N.m
https://www.unitconverters.net/torque/kilogram-force-centimeter-to-newton-meter.htm

amazon has some by other firms,

it needs to cover 3kgf.cm which seems to be the only reference to kgf.cm in the manual,

which would be 0.2941995 N.m,

the earlier number looks like the constant for converting mass to weight, namely
1 kilograms = 9.8066500286389 Newtons

deciphering the formula it looks like kgf.cm in the manual means mass x cm,

whereas N . m must be Newtons x metres, which is force x metres,

gravitational_force = mass x gravity, where gravity = 9.8066500286389 newtons/kilos


which then converts to newtons x metres as kilos x gravity x cm/100 = kilos x cm x (gravity/100)

where 1 kilo x cm is 0.098066500286389 Newtons x metres.

really they should stick to SI units, where N.m is more standard physics,

kilograms force is bad science, as it depends which planet you are on!

as they are giving a precise force, 3 kgf.cm, I would prefer to use some form of torque screwdriver, as they are being very perfectionist, leaving nothing to doubt.

maybe someone sued them for giving imprecise instructions!

Momentary touch will do. Unless you plan to buy the ESD strap to ground yourself at all times.
And few touches in-between as well. E.g ground yourself, handle the MoBo (install components), but when you step away to unpack some other component, before touching the MoBo again, momentary touch again to ground yourself. At least that's what i've been doing when assembling/servicing my PCs.


I've done my PC assembly/servicing barefoot. And on top of solid oak hardwood floor we have in our flat.

there is the question also whether your oak floor is oiled or varnished?

it can be difficult to tell, eg I asked more than one flooring expert whether an oak cabinet was oiled or varnished, and they really werent sure! they all said "I think it is ......", rather than "it is .....".

I was going to get oak, but the installer urged me to get bamboo instead, then major delays getting the oak, which I used as a pretext to cancel the oak and got bamboo instead.

with both oak and bamboo, you can strike it with a hammer, and it will just make a subtle dent. but these floors dont like water. but you can repair them by sanding the surface, and revarnishing or re-oiling, but I would pay a professional to do that. for a bathroom and kitchen, linos are best, as you can pour water on them.

Socks create static charge in you, especially cotton ones, more so when walking on vinyl.

Flip-flops depend on the flip-flop type, since there are ESD proof/certified flip-flops out there, that will not create static charge in you when you wear those.
E.g i have Solid Gear Atlantic "flip-flops" (specs) that meet EN 20345:2011 standard and have S1P, SRC, ESD and HRO certifications. Meaning that while i wear those, i won't generate static charge in my body due to friction between footwear and flooring.

those look cool! maybe I will get some.

if someone is very adept, they start to do crazy stuff, but once they explain why they do what they do, you also start acting crazily!

Looks like the best flooring in your home, where to assemble the PC, to avoid static charge buildup in yourself.

I have put some time today clearing a work area in that room, as there was a lot of accumulated junk, which I probably has accumulated since last summer!

 

[Richard1234]

decided to get this one:

Adjustable Torque Screwdriver 0.05Nm to 0.6Nm - DT000230​

I need 0.294 Nm, and this one is 6% accuracy and steps of 0.005Nm, cost £95.82 including postage.

this one has units of cN.m, which would be 0.01 N.m

should arrive Monday.

 

[Aeacus]

it is both p12 and p10!

I use the actual page number, printed on the page itself, rather than total page number the PDF file contains.

Since not all people count the pages in PDF file, instead they look the page number that is printed on the page itself.

E.g if you read a book, do you look at the page numbers printed on the page itself? Or do you count cover and predecessor non-numbered pages as well, to open up specific page in the book?

there is the question also whether your oak floor is oiled or varnished?

I don't know. It was installed by previous owner of the flat and while he did say which it was, it was more than 10 years ago and i don't remember it anymore. Still, this isn't an issue since when i'd hire professional for maintenance, they can surely tell by looking, which it is.

those look cool! maybe I will get some.

Btw, i love the BOA fastener it has. All my footwear that i have, have BOA fasteners on them. Far more convenient and easily adjustable (also to remove the footwear) than messing around with shoelaces or when having velcro straps.

it needs to cover 3kgf.cm which seems to be the only reference to kgf.cm in the manual,

which would be 0.2941995 N.m,

the earlier number looks like the constant for converting mass to weight, namely
1 kilograms = 9.8066500286389 Newtons

Your MoBo manual offers three torque values in different measurements, depending which you use locally;

*3 kgf·cm
= 0.3 N·m
= 2.6 lbf·in

decided to get this one:

Adjustable Torque Screwdriver 0.05Nm to 0.6Nm - DT000230​

Looks good.

Now, i haven't used any torque screwdrivers myself, since i'm not that concerned of having the exact torque spec on the screws i've fastened.

But on some fields, the torque screwdriver is a must. E.g in clockwork, especially mechanical wrist watches.

 

[Richard1234]

I use the actual page number, printed on the page itself, rather than total page number the PDF file contains.

Since not all people count the pages in PDF file, instead they look the page number that is printed on the page itself.

E.g if you read a book, do you look at the page numbers printed on the page itself? Or do you count cover and predecessor non-numbered pages as well, to open up specific page in the book?

for a book, I use the page numbers printed on the pages, but with pdf's I always give the absolute page number, because major effort deciphering the physical page numbers, you will either have to scroll through, or calculate what the pdf page is. whereas if I give you french page is 155, you can go instantly to that!

thus I use both MOs, whichever is more expedient, if its a pdf file, then the absolute number. if I have printed it out and dont have the pdf to hand, I'll reference the number on the page.

furthermore, I'll only give the absolute number, if I also give the pdf URL.

when printing out computer manuals which have chapters, I often only want to print some chapters, and I have to use both MOs, to find the document page numbers of the chapter, then convert to absolute page numbers for printing the PDF. eg add 10 to document page to get absolute page, and document pages are 120 to 140, so print out absolute pages 130 to 150, its a lot of runaround.

with maths we were set a question once in one course, and I tried an MO from the course, and couldnt answer the question. I asked the tutor, and he used a totally different MO. so I asked: but which MO should we use then?

he said: use whichever MO works!

this is sometimes referred to as an "agnostic" MO, a bit like Dell sometimes using AMD CPUs, sometimes using Intel, they just use whichever is more expedient at the time. they are CPU manufacturer agnostic. it needed a lawsuit against Intel to do this.

the "religious" MO is eg to only use Sony optical drives, to only use Linux, to only use LG monitors, to only use Nvidia gfx cards, to only use Corsair memory etc. the agnostic will use whatever is to hand without hesitating. they dont care if it is Intel or AMD or Linux or Apple or Windows, they dont care if it is USB3 or SATA or PCIe, as long as it does the work, maybe with sufficient speed, then it is fine. for a car they dont care if its a VW or a Peugeot or a Fiat, all that matters is the price, the efficiency, capacity etc.

now in the 1980s it was different, where the brand was all decisive, but nowadays there is major convergence of manufacture, but its a good idea to go for a famous brand.

if I want to visit a Tom's hardware thread, its mostly irrelevant which computer system I use, as long as the browser can handle the webpage scripting.

basically a lot of people insist on doing things a certain way, but in fact you need to do different things different ways. most people reading this thread wont print out the manual, they just have the URL for the pdf, so the absolute pdf page is best. although you print out the pages, you can instantly locate the absolute page from Adobe Acrobat, and then check the page number for your print.

if I want to refer to the first 2 pages, those are unnumbered, so I cannot use the document's page numbers.

eg the 2nd page lists all the languages used, how do you plan to reference that? your only option is absolute page numbers.

also the xiii kind of page numbers with some documents are a total nuisance. whereas if I just say absolute page 15, much more expedient.

its a metalevel problem, you want one system for everything, but I say you need different systems for different circumstances.

I don't know. It was installed by previous owner of the flat and while he did say which it was, it was more than 10 years ago and i don't remember it anymore. Still, this isn't an issue since when i'd hire professional for maintenance, they can surely tell by looking, which it is.

I have asked more than one professional, one was a specialist wood floor installer, the other was a wooden floor manufacturer, they all struggled to identify the oak cabinet: I want to sand and repair that, but am not sure what to use. its for the bathroom, and some of the surface has been damaged by water. Eventually I will contact the manufacturer. maybe you can varnish oiled wood after sanding?

the point is that oiled floors COULD be different electrically from varnished, and it could depend on the kind of varnish.

Btw, i love the BOA fastener it has. All my footwear that i have, have BOA fasteners on them. Far more convenient and easily adjustable (also to remove the footwear) than messing around with shoelaces or when having velcro straps.

are they these ones?

that is a "premium" price! but it is probably worth it.

I am not aware of BOA fasteners, how does that work?

I like velcro, but its difficult to get velcro straps, I bought some velcro strap boots from Lidl once, and they were great, where I could quickly put them on. The only problem was they werent waterproof, and one day I went for a walk around a small lake after rain, and I got quagmired in the mud!

Your MoBo manual offers three torque values in different measurements, depending which you use locally;

ok, found that now, the torque setting is thus approximate.

I am going for a torque screwdriver because the manual recommends it and gives a very precise torque, does away with ambiguity. Also I am intrigued by the idea.

with my 2010 PC, I didnt bother with ESD protection, and attached the mobo however I wished, and it all worked!

but this time the components are quite expensive, and I wish to install it by the book, unless a step is unviable.

some instruction manuals give steps which are either impossible or just wrong!

I have a german exercise bike where some of the components are different from the ones in the manual, but the supplied ones work perfectly, but its a puzzle to figure out how.

Looks good.

its a bit of a jungle to decide which, so I checked ones which cover 0.3 N.m = 30 cN.m, and went for one with best alleged accuracy, AND the finest gradation steps. All are premium prices, but with this kind of thing you shouldnt quibble over maybe even a 30% price margin, you need to get what is best, not what is cheapest.

in the old days, I often would go for the cheapest options, and eventually realised this is a mistake.

but of course to opt out if it is say £500!

they had one which was digital, but it didnt cover 0.3N.m but was much higher torque values.

I have a trade shop catalogue also, but their torque screwdrivers are very high torque values, maybe for fixing a car or something like that!

the other problem will be deciding which drill bits to use for which screws, because the wrong drill bit could damage the screw.

I have to scrutinise the supplied screws and maybe upload some photos. the supplied ones are a bit of a jungle also.

I want the install to be as perfect as possible, which of course will delay the installation, but someone sometime has to ask these questions.

Now, i haven't used any torque screwdrivers myself, since i'm not that concerned of having the exact torque spec on the screws i've fastened.

I am just following your idea that the mobo manual is the bible, so as they mention a really precise torque, it may be worth it. eg if I was ever to sell the mobo, using perfect torque could mean a perfect uninstall, and thus better second hand value.

But on some fields, the torque screwdriver is a must. E.g in clockwork, especially mechanical wrist watches.

I wasnt aware this was important for watch repairs also!

torque screwdrivers are probably a trade secret of professional equipment installers!

maybe even for carpentry, setting the right torque leads to perfect work, but my Agojama drill is no use as it has no torque values.

as regards the wrist strap, main problem is it seems to be despatched from the US, which can take several weeks AND often the items are lost in the post, as US to UK despatch doesnt seem to have tracking, so criminals steal a lot of stuff. I have had at least 2 books from the US never arrive.

also US to UK postage costs can be very high, lower cost postage has big delays, where they probably accumulate a batch to despatch. in the UK there is a firm called TNT who bulk despatch via Royal Mail, where even the government often uses TNT. The items are delivered by the postman, but the despatch is via TNT. eg if you want to despatch 100000 letters.

despatch from the EU to the UK is a lot better, eg I ordered some metal table legs from Germany which arrived quickly, where I improvise work tables from MDF and table legs. I will probably improvise such a table for this install! once the work is complete, I will dismantle the table as lack of space.

in Holland they have beds which during the day fold up into the wall, as lack of space!

instead I found a wrist strap on ebay.co.uk which looks identical, and have ordered that which should arrive quickly. those shoes are probably also a good idea, just waiting for clarification on the ebay URL.

when I get and use all the equipment I will look like someone from 3000AD!

 

[Aeacus]

are they these ones?

that is a "premium" price! but it is probably worth it.

Yes, the very same ones.

Mine costed me €169 since i bought them brand new from official dealership.

Also, i replaced the stock footbed with Cofra Memory Plus ESD footbed,
this one: http://www.cofra.it/en/products/footwear/footwear-lines/1-shoes/86-/2163-?market=eu&id_linea=86

All my footwear actually uses Cofra Memory Plus ESD footbeds, which is very comfortable and breathable.

I am not aware of BOA fasteners, how does that work?

Like so:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMUQeSTrgE


Easy to use and great due to the fine tuning it offers.
Further reading about BOA fasteners,
link: https://www.boafit.com/en-us/innovation

Solid Gear Atlantic has BOA L-series fitting on it (L4, L5 or L6).

I like velcro, but its difficult to get velcro straps, I bought some velcro strap boots from Lidl once, and they were great, where I could quickly put them on. The only problem was they werent waterproof, and one day I went for a walk around a small lake after rain, and I got quagmired in the mud!

Velcro is easy to use but does wear out quite fast. Namely, all kinds of stuff can get logged into the plastic part with hooks, making the grip worse. And of course, over the time, the "carpet" part of it, the strains where the plastic hooks cling to, will brake as well, until you can't fasten it at all, unless you replace the "carpet" part with new, intact strains.

As of BOA fastener, it is very durable and haven't failed on me for years, regardless the weather. I also have Treksta Hercules Gore-Tex waterproof winter boots with BOA fastener for wet/winter wear and BOA fastener on those still works perfectly. Water, snow, mud, rain, easy -25C, you name it, it has endured all problem free.

some instruction manuals give steps which are either impossible or just wrong!

Good product isn't only the one that works well and lasts long, but which also comes with good, easy to understand manual.

the other problem will be deciding which drill bits to use for which screws, because the wrong drill bit could damage the screw.

I have to scrutinise the supplied screws and maybe upload some photos. the supplied ones are a bit of a jungle also.

Philips PZ2 bit or PZ1 bit should suffice for screws for your PC assembly.

I am just following your idea that the mobo manual is the bible, so as they mention a really precise torque, it may be worth it. eg if I was ever to sell the mobo, using perfect torque could mean a perfect uninstall, and thus better second hand value.

Well, yeah, holy bible of PCs is very important. Without it, we'd all be lost, especially when dealing with front I/O pins.

As of selling used PC hardware, i'm not that kind of person, who would sell my junk to someone else. Either i donate the hardware for free (which i've done) or deliver it to waste station for recycle. But to each their own.

I wasnt aware this was important for watch repairs also!

torque screwdrivers are probably a trade secret of professional equipment installers!

maybe even for carpentry, setting the right torque leads to perfect work, but my Agojama drill is no use as it has no torque values.

Well, watches have very tiny screws in them and one just can't use as much torque one wants. It's very easy to strip/jam the screw.

Also, for carpentry, accurate torque is needed, since wood is usually softer than metal screw and one can easily damage the wood, when applying too much torque.

as regards the wrist strap, main problem is it seems to be despatched from the US, which can take several weeks AND often the items are lost in the post, as US to UK despatch doesnt seem to have tracking, so criminals steal a lot of stuff. I have had at least 2 books from the US never arrive.

You asked about ESD wrist strap and i gave you one good example (GamersNexus) + video showcasing how one proper ESD wrist strap is supposed to work. Now, it's up to you to find similar one locally (or within EU), if you don't want to spend time and money for overseas shipping.

 

[Richard1234]

BTW the torque screwdriver has already arrived, but I may not have time to study it today, but hopefully tomorrow.

Yes, the very same ones.

the next problem is deciding the shoe size, as some shoes need a larger size and some a smaller size than usual.

I have to check if the seller will allow me to exchange for a different size.

Mine costed me €169 since i bought them brand new from official dealership.

if you can buy them from a shop, its worth paying a higher price as you can try them in the shop.

Also, i replaced the stock footbed with Cofra Memory Plus ESD footbed,
this one: http://www.cofra.it/en/products/footwear/footwear-lines/1-shoes/86-/2163-?market=eu&id_linea=86

All my footwear actually uses Cofra Memory Plus ESD footbeds, which is very comfortable and breathable.


Like so:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFMUQeSTrgE

this is new to me!

Easy to use and great due to the fine tuning it offers.
Further reading about BOA fasteners,
link: https://www.boafit.com/en-us/innovation

Solid Gear Atlantic has BOA L-series fitting on it (L4, L5 or L6).


Velcro is easy to use but does wear out quite fast. Namely, all kinds of stuff can get logged into the plastic part with hooks, making the grip worse. And of course, over the time, the "carpet" part of it, the strains where the plastic hooks cling to, will brake as well, until you can't fasten it at all, unless you replace the "carpet" part with new, intact strains.

As of BOA fastener, it is very durable and haven't failed on me for years, regardless the weather. I also have Treksta Hercules Gore-Tex waterproof winter boots with BOA fastener for wet/winter wear and BOA fastener on those still works perfectly. Water, snow, mud, rain, easy -25C, you name it, it has endured all problem free.

where you live the weather is probably more extreme, where the item has to be good, whereas here in Bristol our winters are often above 14°C and lower quality items can work, I may have a study of those, as its tricky to find ones which are just waterproof, and the only ones I can get are quite expensive.

for driving I wear plimsolls, as I can feel the pedals better, but when I leave the car I put on trainers, and it wastes a lot of time changing shoes. where there are 8 shoe changes: 2 plimsolls removed, 2 trainers put on, then on return 2 trainers removed, and 2 plimsolls put on! and the trainers need thicker socks than the plimsols.

BOA based ones would be much better.

Good product isn't only the one that works well and lasts long, but which also comes with good, easy to understand manual.


Philips PZ2 bit or PZ1 bit should suffice for screws for your PC assembly.

ok, I'll have a study of my drill bit kits, to see if I can locate those. I have miscellaneous drill bit kits that I have bought over the years.

Well, yeah, holy bible of PCs is very important. Without it, we'd all be lost, especially when dealing with front I/O pins.

As of selling used PC hardware, i'm not that kind of person, who would sell my junk to someone else. Either i donate the hardware for free (which i've done) or deliver it to waste station for recycle. But to each their own.

its more to keep the option open, whether I actually resell is another matter: could be obsolete by that time. with decisions I try to keep as many future options open: its much easier to get into trouble than out of trouble, so I try to study the means of getting out of trouble before I get into trouble!

Well, watches have very tiny screws in them and one just can't use as much torque one wants. It's very easy to strip/jam the screw.

Also, for carpentry, accurate torque is needed, since wood is usually softer than metal screw and one can easily damage the wood, when applying too much torque.

has happened many times! where both the MDF and screw get damaged, I have no training at all which makes things even worse, british schools dont teach anything practical!

I want to find some higher quality screws also, the ones I got from B&Q start to slip, where it could become impossible to remove them: because low quality metal. I will try Travis Perkins sometime, as the carpenter who installed various things for me got all his stuff from Travis Perkins who are more of a trade shop.

you have to get the right screws, the right drill, the right torque, its a right pain!

I have some german calipers, where they have a gauge of ten 0.9 gradations, by aligning this with the 1mm gradations, it measures to an accuracy of 0.1mm! eg if you see the 3rd gradation aligns with a 1mm one, then you can count off how many 0.1mm's, there is a change of 0.1mm with each successive alignment, its great the simplicity of the idea. and I prefer to have a mechanical device than an electronic one, as mechanical ingenuity is a vanishing art. I bought a replica sextant which is really cool, used by old era sailors, which measures angles between 2 distant objects and the eye.

You asked about ESD wrist strap and i gave you one good example (GamersNexus) + video showcasing how one proper ESD wrist strap is supposed to work. Now, it's up to you to find similar one locally (or within EU), if you don't want to spend time and money for overseas shipping.

so far not progressed finding a mat. will have to study this probably tomorrow.

is rubber as a material generally good for avoiding ESD? maybe I can improvise something meant for a different purpose.

 

[Richard1234]

To add to the over cautious nature of this thread I must add this information. NASA states there's a large number of solar events happening. I would advise to assemble the PC inside of a lead lined room wrapped in a Faraday cage.

I am just following the instructions, calling the bluff of the instruction manual if you will!

photo of torque screwdriver

its in fact very elite MO to use a torque screwdriver, I am sure the offical dealerships for upmarket cars use this kind of trick, this is why when the amateur tries to fix things they deteriorate! they overtighten and the substrate crumbles, or they undertighten and things fall off

its a great idea to tighten via a specified torque, wish they taught this at school

I want to completely dissect both the configuration and the installation, because in the old days I just winged it, no ESD protection, I just guessed how tightly to attach things, I used the wrong screwdrivers, etc

 

[Aeacus]

ok, I'll have a study of my drill bit kits, to see if I can locate those. I have miscellaneous drill bit kits that I have bought over the years.

Before using the bit, look how good of a fit it has with screw head. There should not be any wiggle/play room inside the screw head. Also, make sure that the bit bottoms out inside the screw head and isn't too big for the screw.

you have to get the right screws, the right drill, the right torque, its a right pain!

All the needed screws should come with the PC hardware you bought, where you don't need extra screws.

Over the years of PC building, i have so much leftover PC screws that i need to keep them in a plastic zip bag. Of course, i have them sorted since HDD/SSD screws are different from fan screws, which are again different from MoBo screws.

s rubber as a material generally good for avoiding ESD? maybe I can improvise something meant for a different purpose.

Rubber is insulating material and doesn't cause ESD. Rubber is actually one of the best materials to stop the flow of electricity.

 

[Richard1234]

Before using the bit, look how good of a fit it has with screw head. There should not be any wiggle/play room inside the screw head. Also, make sure that the bit bottoms out inside the screw head and isn't too big for the screw.


All the needed screws should come with the PC hardware you bought, where you don't need extra screws.

I think the screws are supplied with the Phantek Enthoo Pro kit, so I will need to collate that with what the mobo says.

for the install I wish to create a temporary work table, and will try to buy some quality screws from Travis Perkins, as the existing ones slip too much. I know this is slightly off topic, but it does relate to the install, what kind of screws should I get for attaching metal legs to some cheap MDF? the metal leg has at the top a thin plane maybe 2mm thick with 4 holes of maybe 4.5mm diameter. if you think it is off topic, send me a private message. the idea is to attach the 4 legs, build the PC on the table, and afterwards dismantle the table where it kind of vanishes, as I dont have the permanent space for even a small table.

Over the years of PC building, i have so much leftover PC screws that i need to keep them in a plastic zip bag. Of course, i have them sorted since HDD/SSD screws are different from fan screws, which are again different from MoBo screws.


Rubber is insulating material and doesn't cause ESD. Rubber is actually one of the best materials to stop the flow of electricity.

ok, I might try and see if I can get a rubber mat. sometimes best way to do something is to use something intended for a different purpose.

 

[Richard1234]

with the mobo manual, with absolute page number 7, (ie if you give 7 as the page number to Adobe Acrobat) it talks of "case standoff keep out zones", not sure what that means?

with absolute page number 9, it says "if you are installing the screw-type CPU heatsink ...", am I installing that?

for Wifi & bluetooth, on absolute page 20 it says usage of wifi 6GHz band relies on windows 11 support, so if I use Windows 10, I will just get 5GHz?

if so, how fast does the modem data rate need to be before that becomes a limitation on windows 10?
as I was planning to use windows 10, as I am used to that, I was told in the previous thread that I can use my windows 10 key to install windows 11, but initially I would like to use windows 10.

where it says eg 5GHz, does that mean 5 gigabits per second, or something else such as the underlying modulated frequency?

with absolute page 22, it says it has a Dual BIOS, what does that mean?

absolute page 19 gives the audio specification:

Realtek® ALC4082 Codec + ESS ES9280AQ Combo DAC/HPA
• 7.1-Channel USB High Performance Audio
• Supports up to 32-bit/384kHz playback on front panel.
• Supports S/PDIF output

is this "high quality"? or should I get an audio card eventually? eg where I digitise some of my old vinyl albums to a very high sampling rate, will this be good enough?

it says "high performance audio", but sometimes this kind of terminology is euphemistic (enthusiastic terminology for junk, eg with comics, "very good condition" means "rubbish")

on absolute page 23, it says "server grade PCB" and "2oz Copper thickened PCB", is this outstandingly good or is it unremarkable and everyday?

as regards video output, where the USB type-C port is for higher data rates, if the other end is HDMI, does this limit the max data rates?

also for max data rates at the monitor, is it only monitors with USB3 type C ports that have the max speed? or can other sockets do the max speeds of today?

my current monitor doesnt have USB3 type C,

where it talks of 4 channel speakers on absolute page 28, do these have 4 different sound streams, or is it 2 copies of 2 sound streams?

it appears to also talk of 7 channel sound, where one is a subwoofer, is that 6 different soundstreams?
isnt there a risk of the room getting very cluttered?

humans only have 2 ears, does having more than 2 soundstreams actually add anything? and isnt there a danger of all parts of the room having the wrong sound?

a bit like trying to have 3 images when we only have 2 eyes,

if you want everyone to have the same experience, might it not be better to give everyone some kind of bluetooth stereo headphones?

on absolute page 18, it says "Please refer to www.msi.com for more information on compatible memory", are they saying there is no list of compatible memory in the manual, but its an ongoingly updated list online?
or will I find these later in the manual, I am still battling with the earlier part of the manual. I am learning a lot, but as you said I will probably have to read it at least 2x, maybe 3x.

if its online, could you give any advice as to how to navigate to this approved list of compatible memory kits?

 

[Aeacus]

with the mobo manual, with absolute page number 7, (ie if you give 7 as the page number to Adobe Acrobat) it talks of "case standoff keep out zones", not sure what that means?

Meaning that when there are standoffs on those spots in the PC case, you should remove standoffs beforehand. Else-ways, those stand-offs can create short circuit with MoBo.

Btw, those three stand-off spots are used for micro-ATX and flex-ATX MoBos. So, some PC cases may have preinstalled standoffs at those points, which you need to remove.
Now, i'm not sure if Phanteks case has those stand-offs mounted there or not. Need to double check it before installing MoBo into PC case.

with absolute page number 9, it says "if you are installing the screw-type CPU heatsink ...", am I installing that?

Yes.

Dark Rock Pro 5 uses it's own aftermarket bracket and screws to be mounted on the MoBo. So, you need to unscrew and take off the plastic bits around CPU socket, before installing CPU cooler.
That much is also said in the Dark Rock Pro 5 manual.

for Wifi & bluetooth, on absolute page 20 it says usage of wifi 6GHz band relies on windows 11 support, so if I use Windows 10, I will just get 5GHz?

Win 10 can use 2.4 Ghz, 5 Ghz and 6 Ghz wi-fi bands. The 6 Ghz band is actually using 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands.
Now, the latest, 6E wi-fi band, will not work on Win10, only on Win11.

the reason why it requires windows 11, is because of regulatory requirements. the module will *not* enable 6G unless location data can confirm it is in a region that allows civillian broadcast on 6Ghz, so that the module does not break any laws (which would ban the sale outright in some markets.)

and apparently windows 10 cant do this, so that's why it wont enable it.

Source: https://linustechtips.com/topic/150...ax210-driver/?do=findComment&comment=15898813

if so, how fast does the modem data rate need to be before that becomes a limitation on windows 10?
as I was planning to use windows 10, as I am used to that, I was told in the previous thread that I can use my windows 10 key to install windows 11, but initially I would like to use windows 10.

where it says eg 5GHz, does that mean 5 gigabits per second, or something else such as the underlying modulated frequency?

Not the network guru myself, so, found this good article from Intel that explains the minute differences between 2.4 Ghz, 5 Ghz and 6 Ghz;
link: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/wireless/2-4-vs-5ghz.html

with absolute page 22, it says it has a Dual BIOS, what does that mean?

Meaning that MoBo has two UEFIs (BIOSes), whereby when you brick one due to failed BIOS update, you can use backup BIOS to get the PC working again.
Further reading from MoBo manual, page 55 (or 57 if you use the total amount).

Some high-end MoBos can have dual BIOS, as a redundancy, while most MoBos only have one BIOS. And if BIOS update fails, without having backup BIOS, MoBo will be bricked, where only fix is MoBo replacement.

Since most MoBos have only one BIOS, updating BIOS isn't something you can do on a whim. BIOS update, as such, is only viable when you know for a fact that newer BIOS fixes the specific issue you have with your PC. (E.g if i want to use Kaby Lake CPU with my Z170 chipset MoBo, i need to update my MoBo BIOS.) If there are no issues, there is no reason, what-so-ever, to update BIOS. Just because you "can" update BIOS doesn't mean that you "have to". Or in other words: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it."

Most MoBos never get their BIOS updated and work fine until they are obsolete. Also, do note that when BIOS update would be interrupted for whatever reason (e.g power loss), your MoBo will be bricked since PC won't run when MoBo has corrupt BIOS. And only fix is MoBo replacement. If lucky, you can roll back the BIOS update, if your MoBo has that feature. Or use 2nd BIOS which some high-end MoBos have.

Anyone who are updating their BIOS on a whim and brick the MoBo, will be paying stupid tax afterwards.

absolute page 19 gives the audio specification:

Realtek® ALC4082 Codec + ESS ES9280AQ Combo DAC/HPA
• 7.1-Channel USB High Performance Audio
• Supports up to 32-bit/384kHz playback on front panel.
• Supports S/PDIF output

is this "high quality"? or should I get an audio card eventually? eg where I digitise some of my old vinyl albums to a very high sampling rate, will this be good enough?

it says "high performance audio", but sometimes this kind of terminology is euphemistic (enthusiastic terminology for junk, eg with comics, "very good condition" means "rubbish")

A standard format for very high-quality, downloadable music is 24-bit digital music sample, taken 384,000 times per second (384 kHz). Designated as 384/24. 384/32 designation means that a larger sample size of 32 bits is used rather than 24.

To put it into commonly known metric for audio quality: "kbps", we need to use following formula;
sample size (in bits) x sampling rate (in kHz) x audio channel amount = transfer rate (in kbps)

32 bit x 348 kHz x 2 (stereo) = 22272 kbps
for comparison:
24 bit x 192 kHz x 2 = 9216 kbps
24 bit x 96 kHz x 2 = 4608 kbps
16 bit x 44.1 kHz x 2 = 1409 kbps - common quality for audio CD
320 kbps - high-res MP3 file
128 kbps - common MP3 file

So, you tell me, if this audio quality is "good enough".

on absolute page 23, it says "server grade PCB" and "2oz Copper thickened PCB", is this outstandingly good or is it unremarkable and everyday?

It leans towards being a good feature, rather than common place.

Now, your MoBo has 8 layer PCB, which for one, is very expensive to manufacture. But will give several benefits. Most apparent one would be much thicker PCB, which is far more durable than 6, 4 or 2 layer PCB. There are other advantages (and disadvantages as well),
further reading: https://www.wevolver.com/article/pcb-layers-everything-you-need-to-know

as regards video output, where the USB type-C port is for higher data rates, if the other end is HDMI, does this limit the max data rates?

It does, IF the HDMI cable is 1.4 or 2.0 version. But if HDMI cable is 2.1 version, then no.

HDMI revisions vs DP revisions.
Do note that your MoBo USB type-C supports DP 1.4.

	HDMI 1.4	HDMI 2.0	HDMI 2.1	DP 1.2	DP 1.3	DP 1.4	DP 2.0
1080p @ 120Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 30Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 60Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 120Hz	❌	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 30Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 60Hz	❌	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 120Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	✅	✅	✅
8k @ 30Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	✅	✅	✅
8k @ 60Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	❌	✅	✅
8k @ 120Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	❌	❌	✅
HDR	❌	✅	✅	❌	❌	✅	✅

also for max data rates at the monitor, is it only monitors with USB3 type C ports that have the max speed? or can other sockets do the max speeds of today?

my current monitor doesnt have USB3 type C,

Monitor doesn't need to have USB type-C port to utilize the max reso what MoBo can output.

As i said, your MoBo can output DP 1.4, where max reso is 8K at 60Hz. For monitor to utilize all that, the panel needs to be able to display 8K reso at 60 Hz, where input port is either DP 1.4, DP 2.0 or HDMI 2.1.

where it talks of 4 channel speakers on absolute page 28, do these have 4 different sound streams, or is it 2 copies of 2 sound streams?

4 channel system is 4 channels, since it uses two cables, where one cable carries two channels.

But if you'd use y-splitter from Line-out, then it would mirror the stereo.

it appears to also talk of 7 channel sound, where one is a subwoofer, is that 6 different soundstreams?

7.1 channel system is actually 8 channels.

isnt there a risk of the room getting very cluttered?

Depends on your audio setup.

You do not have to have big free standing satellite speakers, hogging up the space. You can wall mount the satellite speakers and those get quite small.

humans only have 2 ears, does having more than 2 soundstreams actually add anything? and isnt there a danger of all parts of the room having the wrong sound?

Sure, humans have only 2 ears but 7.1 (or 5.1) audio system is to create surround sound.

Surround sound gives you better sense on which direction the sound comes from.

Best example:
If you sit still and face forward and hear car passing, can you:
* tell from which direction the sound comes from, as car passes you?
* or you just hear that there is a sound, with 0 idea from what direction it comes from? Other than hearing the sound volume to rise (when car gets closer) and fall (when car gets further away).


As of having the wrong sound from wrong speakers, that depends on if you connected the speakers correctly and also if you configured the audio channels to correct speakers.

a bit like trying to have 3 images when we only have 2 eyes,

Ears and eyes aren't comparable.

Might as well say: humans have one mouth and one tongue, so, humans can only taste one type of flavor.
While in fact, you can taste: sweet, salty, bitter, sour and umami. 5 different flavors, but only one tongue - imagine that.

if you want everyone to have the same experience, might it not be better to give everyone some kind of bluetooth stereo headphones?

It's not MoBo manufacturer's obligation to hand out free headphones with their MoBo. Each person decides for themselves how much of an audiophile they are and what kind of sound system they are going to use.

on absolute page 18, it says "Please refer to www.msi.com for more information on compatible memory", are they saying there is no list of compatible memory in the manual, but its an ongoingly updated list online?

Pretty much.
Link: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#mem

Once there, select the "Memory by 7XXX" tab.

 

[Richard1234]

Meaning that when there are standoffs on those spots in the PC case, you should remove standoffs beforehand. Else-ways, those stand-offs can create short circuit with MoBo.

Btw, those three stand-off spots are used for micro-ATX and flex-ATX MoBos. So, some PC cases may have preinstalled standoffs at those points, which you need to remove.
Now, i'm not sure if Phanteks case has those stand-offs mounted there or not. Need to double check it before installing MoBo into PC case.

ok, there is a potential hazard, I'll have to double check that when I reach that stage

Yes.

Dark Rock Pro 5 uses it's own aftermarket bracket and screws to be mounted on the MoBo. So, you need to unscrew and take off the plastic bits around CPU socket, before installing CPU cooler.
That much is also said in the Dark Rock Pro 5 manual.

lucky I asked! I thought maybe it wouldnt apply!

Win 10 can use 2.4 Ghz, 5 Ghz and 6 Ghz wi-fi bands. The 6 Ghz band is actually using 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands.
Now, the latest, 6E wi-fi band, will not work on Win10, only on Win11.

is 6E allowed in the UK?

Source: https://linustechtips.com/topic/150...ax210-driver/?do=findComment&comment=15898813


Not the network guru myself, so, found this good article from Intel that explains the minute differences between 2.4 Ghz, 5 Ghz and 6 Ghz;
link: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/docs/wireless/2-4-vs-5ghz.html

my internet service provider's speed test says for my deal 8Mbps "speed to router" and 3Mbps "speed to device", guaranteed download speed is 3Mbps, so I think maybe 2.4Ghz is plenty?

will the system automatically select the 2.4Ghz if that is best, or do I have to manually select from 2.4, 5 and 6Ghz?

Meaning that MoBo has two UEFIs (BIOSes), whereby when you brick one due to failed BIOS update, you can use backup BIOS to get the PC working again.
Further reading from MoBo manual, page 55 (or 57 if you use the total amount).

will be some time before I reach that page!

Some high-end MoBos can have dual BIOS, as a redundancy, while most MoBos only have one BIOS. And if BIOS update fails, without having backup BIOS, MoBo will be bricked, where only fix is MoBo replacement.

Since most MoBos have only one BIOS, updating BIOS isn't something you can do on a whim. BIOS update, as such, is only viable when you know for a fact that newer BIOS fixes the specific issue you have with your PC. (E.g if i want to use Kaby Lake CPU with my Z170 chipset MoBo, i need to update my MoBo BIOS.) If there are no issues, there is no reason, what-so-ever, to update BIOS. Just because you "can" update BIOS doesn't mean that you "have to". Or in other words: "If it ain't broke - don't fix it."

Most MoBos never get their BIOS updated and work fine until they are obsolete. Also, do note that when BIOS update would be interrupted for whatever reason (e.g power loss), your MoBo will be bricked since PC won't run when MoBo has corrupt BIOS. And only fix is MoBo replacement. If lucky, you can roll back the BIOS update, if your MoBo has that feature. Or use 2nd BIOS which some high-end MoBos have.

Anyone who are updating their BIOS on a whim and brick the MoBo, will be paying stupid tax afterwards.

I wasnt aware of this jeopardy, I wanted to upgrade my 2010 mobo BIOS, but wasnt sure how to!

in future I wont try to upgrade these!

A standard format for very high-quality, downloadable music is 24-bit digital music sample, taken 384,000 times per second (384 kHz). Designated as 384/24. 384/32 designation means that a larger sample size of 32 bits is used rather than 24.

To put it into commonly known metric for audio quality: "kbps", we need to use following formula;
sample size (in bits) x sampling rate (in kHz) x audio channel amount = transfer rate (in kbps)

32 bit x 348 kHz x 2 (stereo) = 22272 kbps
for comparison:
24 bit x 192 kHz x 2 = 9216 kbps
24 bit x 96 kHz x 2 = 4608 kbps
16 bit x 44.1 kHz x 2 = 1409 kbps - common quality for audio CD
320 kbps - high-res MP3 file
128 kbps - common MP3 file

So, you tell me, if this audio quality is "good enough".

I checked and looks like I opted for 88.2KHz x 2 channels with audacity, which has created digitisations which are 346MB lossless flac recordings. where that was the lowest sampling rate that the quality was acceptable, the initial recordings I did at a much higher sampling rate created files which were too huge, where if I digitised everything it would take up too much drive space. Not sure how many bits. CD rate was no good.

88.2 was a compromise between filesize and quality, where I want the digitisation to be lossless also.

It leans towards being a good feature, rather than common place.

Now, your MoBo has 8 layer PCB, which for one, is very expensive to manufacture. But will give several benefits. Most apparent one would be much thicker PCB, which is far more durable than 6, 4 or 2 layer PCB.

this may be where accurate torque can be important, as I dont want the PCB to crumble from too much pressure!

There are other advantages (and disadvantages as well),
further reading: https://www.wevolver.com/article/pcb-layers-everything-you-need-to-know


It does, IF the HDMI cable is 1.4 or 2.0 version. But if HDMI cable is 2.1 version, then no.

HDMI revisions vs DP revisions.
Do note that your MoBo USB type-C supports DP 1.4.

	HDMI 1.4	HDMI 2.0	HDMI 2.1	DP 1.2	DP 1.3	DP 1.4	DP 2.0
1080p @ 120Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 30Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 60Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
1440p @ 120Hz	❌	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 30Hz	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 60Hz	❌	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅	✅
4k @ 120Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	✅	✅	✅
8k @ 30Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	✅	✅	✅
8k @ 60Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	❌	✅	✅
8k @ 120Hz	❌	❌	✅	❌	❌	❌	✅
HDR	❌	✅	✅	❌	❌	✅	✅

Monitor doesn't need to have USB type-C port to utilize the max reso what MoBo can output.

As i said, your MoBo can output DP 1.4, where max reso is 8K at 60Hz. For monitor to utilize all that, the panel needs to be able to display 8K reso at 60 Hz, where input port is either DP 1.4, DP 2.0 or HDMI 2.1.

the specific cable I bought which you recommended in the earlier thread is this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B015RIVYJK

I cannot decipher from the above URL what HDMI version it is,

4 channel system is 4 channels, since it uses two cables, where one cable carries two channels.

But if you'd use y-splitter from Line-out, then it would mirror the stereo.


7.1 channel system is actually 8 channels.


Depends on your audio setup.

You do not have to have big free standing satellite speakers, hogging up the space. You can wall mount the satellite speakers and those get quite small.

I have 2 large (but not ginormous) hifi loudspeakers from 1985! and the lack of space makes it a challenge to have those, I dont plan to use any more. these have tweeters and woofers, but no midrange.

really superb sound.

Sure, humans have only 2 ears but 7.1 (or 5.1) audio system is to create surround sound.

Surround sound gives you better sense on which direction the sound comes from.

Best example:
If you sit still and face forward and hear car passing, can you:
* tell from which direction the sound comes from, as car passes you?

Spoiler: potentially off topic about perception

human ear is just 1 sound signal, so even with all the technology in the world, your brain just has 2 sound signals, its like having just 2 pixels of sound, but where the pixel has 1000s of different components of colours, corresponding to the hairs in the cochlea in the brain. whereas the eyes have huge amount of pixels but each is one of 4 different colours: red, green, blue, white (rods). basically 4 kinds of pixels, red, green, blue, white. each pixel sends a pulse if it detects that colour. the rate of the pulse determines the brightness. but each pulse is identical regardless of the brightness, but there is a higher rate of identical pulses for brighter light.

basically the brain can perceive from that one sound signal different "sounds" eg with say a pop song, you can discern out just the singer, or just the guitar, or just the drums, or just the voice of the DJ on the radio, and "ignore" the other sound components.

but this is from one pixel of sound, the brain is clever like this, same way from one eye, your brain can perceive from one image, say a table, a book, a mug of coffee.

now from the 2 pixels of sound, namely the 2 years, the brain will perceive the guitar at volume1 from ear1, and volume2 from ear2, and interpolates this to now also perceive 2D position. but there is a circle of viable positions for the interpolation centred on the axis between the 2 ears, and perpendicular to that axis.

basically the human ear cannot tell the height of the object, but it decides this by context, eg if its the sound of an aeroplane it interprets this as higher up.

to further disambiguate, you have to turn and or tilt your head. eg if you hear a sound, you turn your head to look at where the item is, as vision is more useful than sound, the sound interpolation plus context gives your brain a clue where the object is, and once you look directly at it, the 2 ears should receive the same volume also. as you rotate and maybe tilt your head, volume1 : volume2 helps guide your eyes to the object.

eg volume1 very loud, volume2 quiet, means it is near your left ear, eg a fly buzzing your left ear.

whereas if volume1 quiet, and volume2 slightly quieter, means a fly far away. volume, expected volume, ratio of volumes, and then also visual context, decides the overall perception, and overall perception can be wrong, where you get "fooled", which includes scams and deception and traps and clickbait etc.


because the 1 sound signal is so impressive, a lot of people wrongly believe hearing is 2D, it isnt! the hearing from 1 ear, is basically a spectral graph. x-axis frequency, y-axis amplitude. nothing else, there is no positional info whatsoever. the brain then also perceives higher level sounds, eg say a specific person's voice, or a piano's notes, or a word spoken by a specific voice, from that 1 ear.

2 dimensions emerge from the interpolation of the 2 ears, where an extra dimension emerges.

whereas with vision, each pixel is a spectrum of 1 point: either binary red=0 or 1, or binary green=0 or 1, or binary blue = 0 or 1, or binary white = 0 or 1. versus audio which is a spectrum of thousands of points, this is why sound is such a rich experience, as it essentially splits a dot into a graph, what you might call a spectrograph. and it requires major hardware to split one dot, which is one cochlea:

this is the hardware to spectrally split 1 pixel of sound

the semicircular canals in that diagram are the hardware to detect rotational motion, each ear has 3 semicircular canals, allowing more info via interpolation.

I have an A in A level zoology, which is a course you do aged 16 to 18, and is equivalent to 2 solid semesters of the subject. ie as if for 2 semesters, all day every day just zoology lessons. you do 3 subjects over 2 years, where each day they alternate those 3 subjects equally. our course focussed on human zoology, but also covered the entire animal kingdom in overview.

from the 2 ears, the brain has this spectral info from both ears, where it tunes into higher level perceptions eg a specific voice saying a specific word, and where volume1 from the one ear, and volume2 from the other ear, then tell the brain which direction it is from. for real sounds, ie not from equipment, but eg the sound of a car or a motorbike or a bird, your brain will also take into account its experience of that sound to decide how far away it is. eg far away in the distance you hear a motorbike accelerate or an aeroplane far away. or a helicopter really near (because it is loud).

when you watch a film on TV with mono speakers, your brain uses the visuals to perceive where the sounds are from. eg a guy on the left of the screen talks, but the sound is from the speaker in the middle, your brain will apply that visual info to perceive the sound as coming from the left. perception is "elastic",

propaganda and brainwashing are based on this elasticity, where they recondition the higher level perceptions. when Stalin learnt of Pavlov's experiment with the dog, he established the soviet union's propaganda agenda based on this! because Pavlov showed you could make a dog salivate by ringing a bell, where the dog perceived the bell (a sound) as food.

all perceptions: sound, vision, touch, temperature, taste, etc are merged into an overall perception. eg if you shut your eyes, and move your hands around you can "see" with your hands and identify objects. and identify objects by their sounds. dogs bark, cats miaow, elephants trumpet, lions roar etc.

you can run up the stairs with your eyes shut.

* or you just hear that there is a sound, with 0 idea from what direction it comes from? Other than hearing the sound volume to rise (when car gets closer) and fall (when car gets further away).


As of having the wrong sound from wrong speakers, that depends on if you connected the speakers correctly and also if you configured the audio channels to correct speakers.


Ears and eyes aren't comparable.

Spoiler: potentially off topic about hearing perception

they are comparable! they are different MOs for the same problem, which ultimately is to detect food at a distance. furthermore both ears and eyes are based on 2 identical pieces of equipment, 2 ears, 2 eyes.

the most basic biological function of animals is eating.

taste is the original sense, to recognise captured food. smell is to taste at a distance in order to move towards where the food is. touch is to capture food for eating. sound is touch at a distance, where its a very subtle sense of touch of the air. vision is sensing objects really far away from an even more subtle touch, namely light reflection, which is electron-touch, whereas sound is molecular-touch.

light basically makes outer electrons of atoms temporarily jump an energy level.

sound makes an entire molecule move.

touch is where molecules move en masse.

its all the same, but via different emphases, and the brain merges the different perceptions into a unified perception, eg Bowie singing the word "fashion".

the same way a spymaster might have different spies, and then merge their different reports into one unified assessment.

a secondary evolution is to determine threats at a distance, especially predators, which is to avoid being detected as food.


the ear can be thought of as 1 pixel, which can perceive thousands of different frequencies at different volumes,

the eye is millions of pixels which can be thought of as 3 specific frequencies (red, green, blue) at different volumes. rods are basically sums (red + green + blue) hence rods are much more sensitive than cones and higher resolution.

with one eye, the world is just 2D. but with 2 eyes, we get stereoscopic vision and can perceive distance via parallax. when we look at a photo, we use experience to perceive further stuff. but in fact you have to learn to understand photos.

when I first watched 3D TV, I watched the 2012 olympic wild water rafting, and it was as if it was in my room. I remember it as miniature canoeists (kayakists?) hovering in a miniature current of water in this room. But that is because I hadnt learnt yet to interpret it as full size the way I would with 2D TV!

its the same with hearing, with 1 ear, you just hear 1D sound, you can discern a voice, a guitar, drums, etc. distances are entirely perceived via volume and expectations. eg guitar very loud, everything else very quiet, means guitar very near you, other stuff far away, eg some huge stage.

Might as well say: humans have one mouth and one tongue, so, humans can only taste one type of flavor.
While in fact, you can taste: sweet, salty, bitter, sour and umami. 5 different flavors, but only one tongue - imagine that.

Spoiler: potentially off topic about taste perception

that isnt quite true!

sweet + salt + bitter + sour is an oversimplification, I am sceptical of umami, sounds like japanese nonsense!

like their photographic idea of bokeh! bokeh is just an arbitrary phenomenon and umami is an arbitrary taste genre.

the japanese have rightly observed that savoury foods arent covered by the sweet+salt+bitter+sour idea, but they are wrong to think it is one further sense.



in fact the tongue is not dissimilar to the ears, that it can perceive an entire spectrum of tastes,

if you took some table sugar, some salt, some quinine, some vitamin C, and something the japanese class as umami, there is absolutely no way you can synthesize all other tastes by merely combining these!

eg how do you plan to synthesize the taste of bubblegum from those?

or the taste of mint?

or the very unique taste of a mango?

or the taste of vanilla ice cream?

or the taste of german bratkartoffel where they fry potatoes with onions?

or the taste of mustard?

or the taste of chilli peppers?

or the taste of carraway?

or the taste of a mulberry?

or the taste of an apricot?

or the taste of caramel?


I can go on,



these japanese concepts like umami and bokeh, are just arbitrary items from a myriad of different ones.

the japanese notice A phenomenon, and then it becomes THE phenomenon.


and in fact the sense of smell is an extension of the sense of taste, eg if you drink a mug of freshly roasted coffee, the aroma and the taste are essentially an inseparable experience.

the gamut of smells is phenomenal, taste isnt much different. taste is the original sense,

It's not MoBo manufacturer's obligation to hand out free headphones with their MoBo. Each person decides for themselves how much of an audiophile they are and what kind of sound system they are going to use.

Spoiler: potentially off topic about directional sound

if you want lots of speakers to make a sound move across the room diagonally, that would work, but you'd need to move your head, and if you do that too much you will get neck strain. so its ultimately a gimmick.

perception is elastic, and your brain will use context to perceive this kind of thing.

I once went to a Friday the 13th horror film in 3D, I think around 1980, and they shot something like an arrow directly at the audience! it is 44 years ago, so my memory is a bit imprecise. But this is what happens with this kind of effect, they'll have a few such gimmicks in the film. but is there a proper plot?
with music, is there actually a tune?

if you go out in the real world, you have sounds emanating from a myriad of locations. impressiveness is about ideas, eg plot and tune, its not about the mechanics of the perceptions, that is gimmickery, like interactive art installations: interesting but ultimately inconsequential.

Pretty much.
Link: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MEG-X670E-ACE/support#mem

Once there, select the "Memory by 7XXX" tab.

ok, it is well hidden!

 

[Richard1234]

technical questions about torque screwdrivers, this is kind of a comprehension challenge, as I have to give different bits of info, and you will have to comprehend something out of the confusion.

first the big question: what kind of "drill" bits should I get for the torque screwdriver?

where the facts to hand come next,

first the torque screwdriver, 2 photos of the attachment end:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/torque1.jpg
http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/torque2.jpg

then the manual:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/torque_manual1.jpg
http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/torque_manual2.jpg

the certification:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/torque_cert.jpg

Now the screws are from the Phantek Enthoo Pro,

first a photo of several of the different kind of screws, with exaggerated contrast to make the structure more visible:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/mobo_screws.jpg

in particular, the 4th one from the left has a much longer groove in the one direction,

and now the Enthoo's manual's encyclopedic version of events:

http://www.directemails.info/tom/torque/enthoo_screws.jpg

I want to attach and detach the screws optimally, with no slipping of the drill bit at the screw grooves,

in the past I would have just tried to use a philips screwdriver, but I want to do this perfectly,

in a way which if you brought in the experts at MSI and Phantek, that they couldnt fault the MO.

I may then trek to B&Q to try and buy whatever is advised.

eg the MSI official video blatantly shows the use of a torque screwdriver, although their manual only depicts an ordinary screwdriver:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWI6Qt51Wnc&t=2m31s


there is a drill bit in that torque screwdriver in the vid, but my one might be a different format,


I did notice that this one I bought doesnt have electrical protection, they had another one by the same manufacturer which was rubberized, but was bigger gradations. maybe if I wear rubber gloves or something. I presume the zones I will access are isolated from the mobo?

 

[35below0]

With regard to BIOS updates, there is always a risk to them.
Most updates are simple and consist of installing newer files. They require no more than the software updated be restarted. For example Firefox or such. Some Windows updates also require no action from the user.
Occassionally Windows updates or driver updates will require a PC restart.

But BIOS updates are different. They not only require a restart, or two, they also must not be interrupted. If an update fails or is interrupted by power loss, the motherboard is left with no functioning BIOS and the computer is unable to reach the boot stage even if all components are ok. The PC can power on but with no BIOS, it simply does nothing.

Some motherboards can be rescued from this state, some cannot. Some have dual BIOS in order to avoid the danger.

This is not a normal software update. It more or less takes place on the motherboard itself and can potentially screw it up beyond repair.
Having an up to date BIOS does not have any drawbacks, but the risk is too great to simply update it whenever a new version is offered.

BIOS should be updated if the computer is experiencing problems. If everything is ok, then better to leave it alone.
Another reason to update is hardware compatibility. New RAM or CPU may require a newer BIOS to support it. New BIOS versions are published to correct small errors and to make newly introduced hardware compatible. And again, if there is no such hardware installed in the machine, BIOS is better left alone.

Final reason to update BIOS is when the PC has been assembled for the first time. The motherboard has been in a box for a long time and it's BIOS is almost certainly out of date. Since the PC is brand new and the motherboard under warranty, the risk of losing a usable PC is minimal. It would make sense to update BIOS to the current version.
After that, leave alone unless a problem arises that can be solved by a BIOS update.

It is not something that should never be done. It is something that should never be done without reason.
It's mostly harmless.

 

[Richard1234]

This is not a normal software update. It more or less takes place on the motherboard itself and can potentially screw it up beyond repair.

how much is known to the general public about what exactly the BIOS update is?

or is it say very manufacturer and model specific, ie not standardised?

the software in the BIOS update, would this typically be not for the CPU to use, but other controller chips on the mobo?

the BIOS calls are for the CPU, eg I use them to set up floppies, and for booting from floppies. and you can program this from Windows "command prompts" (what I call a "shell"), where Windows emulates the 16 bit environment. I use this environment to manufacture the boot disk, via a batch file of some 16 bit programs that I wrote. I may make an example available eventually, including source code.

Spoiler: potentially off topic about BIOS programming

but those BIOS calls might then communicate to other chips, I dont know how the BIOS might do that, but as a programmer I communicate with other chips via the bus, where to communicate to a chip you write to special areas of memory which are fake memory, which the peripheral hardware listens out for and intercepts the data as commands. the peripheral hardware replies either through fake memory locations that I have to read or via "interrupts".

but maybe the chipset software is updated with a BIOS update, where the circumstance might be self referential, where the code loading the update is itself updated, and if halted midway the system is now stuck, neither here nor there.

there is a great website which I use for using the BIOS, the ONLY website I used for BIOS call documentation, but this is for 16 bit programming when an older era PC starts up:

the main website:

https://www.ctyme.com/rbrown.htm

the top level set of 256 overall command groupings:

http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int.htm

but in fact more useful is the grouping by function:

http://www.ctyme.com/intr/cat.htm

and then eg say you click 16 you get those for that int value,

http://www.ctyme.com/intr/int-16.htm

"ints" are a 16 bit ancient era PC programming MO, where the BIOS programming interface is via "int" commands.

some of which are proprietory, where it mentions some manufacturer, and some are available on all PCs, I only use the ones available on all PCs. the PC I use is usually not on the list, so I soon find out if I used a proprietory call by mistake!

those enable you to program without OS, where instead you use the BIOS as a rudimentary OS, what I do is start with that, loading software from the floppy, and then that software promotes the CPU to 32 bit, and then some 32 bit code promotes itself to 64 bit. going from 16 bit to 64 bit is a major performance.

the UEFI is probably the modernisation which I wished for at the time, but which most PCs wouldnt have, so no point programming for it at that time. I may be able to junk my 16 bit code via the UEFI, but I know nothing at all about UEFI. with most other CPUs, eg say Motorola 68000, or MIPS R2000, or PPC, you hit the ground running with say modern 32 bit programming.

with an ancient era PC, if you set the floppy to be the first boot device, if you insert a floppy and power up, the hardware loads the first sector, and checks if is marked as "bootable", if so, it executes the program on the first sector, and that is the end of the hardware boot. the data on that sector has to do everything further, eg load further sectors and execute these, which is the "bootstrap", where the idea originates from lifting yourself up by your bootstraps, where I think you lift your bootstraps and fly upwards into the air! like a Warner Brothers cartoon. in mathematics also you have the problem of bootstrapping, which is a topic of "foundations of mathematics", where mathematics is boostrapped out of virtually nothing.

with multicore, the hardware boots with just one CPU, which has to optionally "wake up" the other CPUs, via some involved protocol invented by Intel. if you dont wake up the other CPUs, the system will just function with 1 cpu, with the other cores asleep. I specifically programmed AMD multicore and not Intel, because in that era, there was no overlap of AMD cores, but Intel hyperthreaded cores overlap, which is a nuisance factor as several CPUs might be fighting over the same shared item. I dont see the point of hyperthreading, because multitasking is best done in software by the OS, and not by the hardware. I heard in any case it is problematic to hyperthread more than 2 items because of proliferation of complexity. some things are best done in software!


but the moment I leave 16 bit, I no longer use the BIOS, and have to "hit the hardware" directly, and its a lot of work deciphering any specific hardware, some hardware is straightforward to program directly eg the mouse and keyboard, but the IDE drives are a total nightmare! I had to get help from a guy on the standards committee which covers IDE to get that to work.

possibly you can use the BIOS from 32 and 64 bit, but I never tried this, as it looked a bit scary.

I havent done any of this programming for many years, except a few maintenance checks to verify it still functions. when I got code for working on hard drives, which was probably around 2006, PCs booted from IDE drives. I think things like SATA are backwards compatible with IDE, so any programming for IDE will work, via hardware emulation, BUT there are probably size limits, where data beyond some subset cannot be accessed, namely the size limit of IDE drives.

more generally, code for obsolete hardware will often work on modern hardware via hardware emulation, I have no idea where the hardware emulation occurs, possibly at the peripheral hardware, but maybe in the chipsets, but from my perspective I am just programming some ancient hardware, and it automagically works on modern hardware.

with the CPU also, if you program it in 32 bit, you can only access I think 4Gig of memory, but from 64 bit, you can access all memory. I forget what the limit is with 16 bit, as the 16 bit Intel uses tricks to go beyond 2^6=65k. I didnt waste time on 32 bit programming, and just used 32 bit as a bootstrap stepping stone to 64 bit.

It is not something that should never be done. It is something that should never be done without reason.
It's mostly harmless.

if a new mobo doesnt function, I will probably action a refund!

 

[Aeacus]

is 6E allowed in the UK?

0 clue. Need to ask your ISP (internet service provider) about that.

my internet service provider's speed test says for my deal 8Mbps "speed to router" and 3Mbps "speed to device", guaranteed download speed is 3Mbps, so I think maybe 2.4Ghz is plenty?

If you only have 8 Mbps speed, then 2.4 Ghz wi-fi is more than enough.

2.4 Ghz wi-fi can provide up to 450 Mbps (or even 600 Mbps with select devices) of speeds.
5 Ghz wi-fi - up to 1300 Mbps
6E Ghz wi-fi - up to 2400 Mbps

My internet connection is 500 Mbps download and 50 Mbps upload (fastest plan my ISP offers). So, for my use, 5 Ghz w-fi network (which i also have) is actually useful.

will the system automatically select the 2.4Ghz if that is best, or do I have to manually select from 2.4, 5 and 6Ghz?

You need to manually select which wi-fi network to establish the connection to. Once you've selected the network, PC will connect to the network automatically next time (unless you've specifically configured to request log-in at every connection at all times).

the specific cable I bought which you recommended in the earlier thread is this one:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B015RIVYJK

I cannot decipher from the above URL what HDMI version it is,

Deep dive into the fine print on amazon reveals it to be HDMI 1.4 cable, since it can do 4K at 30 Hz.

first the big question: what kind of "drill" bits should I get for the torque screwdriver?

It says on the torque screwdriver manual: 6.35mm x 4mm HEX bit.

Or better yet, visit any local hardware store of your choosing, bring the torque screwdriver with you and in store, on the spot, ask for assistance (store clerk should know) about which HEX bit is the best fit for this tool.

HEX bits that i have (Makita ones), are universal and i can use them with my battery powered power drill and with screwdriver as well.

in particular, the 4th one from the left has a much longer groove in the one direction,

Well, that one is thumb screw, which can be fastened by 3 ways:
* use your fingers to grapple outside groove
* use flat head screw bit (hence the long slit in it)
* use cross head screw bit

Most Phanteks screws are cross head.
I've used PZ1 and PZ2 bits (Pozidriv) to fasten PC screws.

how much is known to the general public about what exactly the BIOS update is?

Given that general public even doesn't know how to assemble the desktop PC, knowledge of BIOS update is even less spread.

Those DIY (do it yourself) people who assemble their own PCs, usually have an idea what BIOS update is. But risks involved with it are less known even among those people.
From time-to-time, we get some topics here where OP has bricked their MoBo due to BIOS update and then come here to ask for further help (as of what to do).

BIOS update isn't simple software update. Instead it is hardware firmware update.
If you know how important working firmware for a hardware is - then i think i don't need to explain further what BIOS update is.

When it comes to PCs, BIOS update isn't the only firmware update you may come across. Others include: 2.5" SATA SSD firmware update, M.2 NVMe firmware update, gaming peripherals firmware update (essentially any peripheral that has additional features over default features and needs dedicated software to control it).

or is it say very manufacturer and model specific, ie not standardised?

More like manufacturer/hardware specific. You need to read the manual for correct steps.

About BIOS update specifically (i'll exclude other hardware firmware update for time being, like SSD or peripherals);
Some MoBos require you to have CPU and RAM installed in the MoBo, for BIOS update. Other MoBos only need power from PSU for BIOS update (no need to install CPU or RAM). So, it is specific to each MoBo essentially.

But one thing is common for all, you need USB thumb drive where to put the new firmware file.
But actual steps differ. E.g some MoBos may require you to rename the firmware file to specific one (written in manual), others may require you to put the firmware file into root directory of USB thumb drive (again, explained in manual).

So, when you're about to cross that bridge of BIOS update, do read the manual on how to do it.
It is explained in pages 70 and 71 in manual (or 72/73 in total pages). Your MoBo offers 3 different ways to update BIOS. 3rd one would be easiest/simplest.

 

[Richard1234]

0 clue. Need to ask your ISP (internet service provider) about that.


If you only have 8 Mbps speed, then 2.4 Ghz wi-fi is more than enough.

2.4 Ghz wi-fi can provide up to 450 Mbps (or even 600 Mbps with select devices) of speeds.
5 Ghz wi-fi - up to 1300 Mbps
6E Ghz wi-fi - up to 2400 Mbps

My internet connection is 500 Mbps download and 50 Mbps upload (fastest plan my ISP offers). So, for my use, 5 Ghz w-fi network (which i also have) is actually useful.

the higher speeds cost money, I very rarely download larger files, main one I downloaded in recent months was the Windows 10 iso. I used to be with a firm (Virgin Media, owned by Richard Branson) which was fibre optic, which had fast download options, but they started charging me £70 a month for phone + broadband, which is a bit expensive if you dont download much.

You need to manually select which wi-fi network to establish the connection to. Once you've selected the network, PC will connect to the network automatically next time (unless you've specifically configured to request log-in at every connection at all times).

but how do you select if it is 2.4GHz or 5 or 6? as I currently only need 2.4, I'd prefer that as it has a stronger signal.

Deep dive into the fine print on amazon reveals it to be HDMI 1.4 cable, since it can do 4K at 30 Hz.

which version is the HDMI of my monitor?

It says on the torque screwdriver manual: 6.35mm x 4mm HEX bit.
Or better yet, visit any local hardware store of your choosing, bring the torque screwdriver with you and in store, on the spot, ask for assistance (store clerk should know) about which HEX bit is the best fit for this tool.

I tried visiting B&Q at Hartcliffe, which is a hardware store which is ginormous, where you will struggle to fit the shop building in your field of view, looking at Google Earth, 51°25'0.52"N 2°35'54.81"W the building part is about 150metres long, and 80m wide, a standard soccer pitch is 91m x 46, ie the shop building is 2.87 x the size of a soccer pitch! you could approx fit 2 jumbo jets (76.25m) end to end in that!

and they brought in one expert after another, each couldnt deal with the item, finally the guy at the top made sense of it.

he said it takes 4mm bits, but I need a 4mm to 6.35mm converter for the phantek screws, that maybe a 4mm bit might work for the smaller ones.

but they dont have such a converter. Once in Berlin, I went to the ginormous KaDeWe department store, which is 5 or 6 storeys, and I asked if they sold screwdrivers, they said: no, try Bauhaus. I did, and they sold me a chrome plated one, where the chrome scraped off when I used it!

at a nearby shop, B&M, I found a Rolson kit for £4.99 which fits perfectly, but these bits are slightly too small,

photo of the Rolson kit
and photo of a Rolson bit attached to the torque screwdriver


I thus need a 4mm to 6.35mm adapter, and so far havent found one which can be delivered quickly. I did find one which would be delivered maybe 6th March. And I thought I found one on ebay, but in fact it is 6.35mm to 4mm.

I tried Halfords which does car parts, and they had an item with 4mm bits, an item with 6.35mm bits, but no converter. having difficulty also finding 6.35mm bits on the internet, both on amazon.co.uk and Google.

at Halfords and other places, the items mostly dont say what size they are.

anyway, I dont think any shop in Bristol sells such a converter, and online I am struggling to find any place which sells such AND where delivery wont take too long.

HEX bits that i have (Makita ones), are universal and i can use them with my battery powered power drill and with screwdriver as well.

yes, but can you set torque to 0.3 N.m with the makita?

I imagine it is designed for much higher torques?

I dont want to use an electric drill with the mobo, what if the drill slips? I only have to do this once every several years, so doing it manually is fine.

I have screwdrivers and miscellaneous drill bits, but not with 0.3 N.m torque control!

I have 0.3 N.m torque control, but no bits big enough for the Phantek screws!

I have the 4mm Rolson bits which fit, see earlier photo, but they are on the small side.

Well, that one is thumb screw, which can be fastened by 3 ways:
* use your fingers to grapple outside groove
* use flat head screw bit (hence the long slit in it)
* use cross head screw bit

Most Phanteks screws are cross head.
I've used PZ1 and PZ2 bits (Pozidriv) to fasten PC screws.


Given that general public even doesn't know how to assemble the desktop PC, knowledge of BIOS update is even less spread.

what I really meant was "publicly available", rather than the general public who dont even know what a file is!

Those DIY (do it yourself) people who assemble their own PCs, usually have an idea what BIOS update is. But risks involved with it are less known even among those people.
From time-to-time, we get some topics here where OP has bricked their MoBo due to BIOS update and then come here to ask for further help (as of what to do).

BIOS update isn't simple software update. Instead it is hardware firmware update.
If you know how important working firmware for a hardware is - then i think i don't need to explain further what BIOS update is.

When it comes to PCs, BIOS update isn't the only firmware update you may come across. Others include: 2.5" SATA SSD firmware update, M.2 NVMe firmware update, gaming peripherals firmware update (essentially any peripheral that has additional features over default features and needs dedicated software to control it).

More like manufacturer/hardware specific. You need to read the manual for correct steps.

About BIOS update specifically (i'll exclude other hardware firmware update for time being, like SSD or peripherals);
Some MoBos require you to have CPU and RAM installed in the MoBo, for BIOS update. Other MoBos only need power from PSU for BIOS update (no need to install CPU or RAM). So, it is specific to each MoBo essentially.

the BIOS update is then maybe not a BIOS update, but some kind of firmware update. technically the BIOS is the CPU programming interface to the hardware. things like memory compatibility is beyond the BIOS! as the CPU doesnt use an explicit interface to memory.

if the BIOS update can proceed without the CPU, its beyond the BIOS, the BIOS might rely on it, but it is debatable whether it is the BIOS even if its called a BIOS update by the mobo people.

according to wikipedia, the BIOS is " firmware used to provide runtime services for operating systems and programs and to perform hardware initialization during the booting process"

operating systems and programs exist entirely in the realm of CPU + memory, loaded into memory from disks, or existing in fixed ROM memory.

caveat: just because wikipedia says something, doesnt mean it is true! its just someone's opinion that hasnt been contested. with the above wikipedia definition, who else is there for firmware to provide services for other than operating systems and programs?

the programmer concept of the BIOS is those Ralph Brown int commands in the earlier message, where it is explicit software calls to the hardware. and not some disembodied software in the distance on the mobo which I would regard as "on the other side".

BIOS literally means Basic Input/Output System, and means system commands for the CPU to read input from peripheral hardware eg mouse, keyboard, data reads from disks, and write output to peripheral hardware eg disk drives.

thus their comment might as well just say "the BIOS is firmware", but in that case the word BIOS is redundant, just call it firmware! because if what they say is true, they are saying BIOS is firmware, which just means software embedded within hardware to implement a black box eg a washing machine, or calculator.

undercover software implementing a machine.

the use of language needs to be debated and reformed, because inefficient or misleading language leads to confused thinking. at our uni, the maths faculty would reform the maths language from time to time, where all courses used a unified vocab. in my school era also, the exam boards would reform the use of english for courses.

eg we talk of solid state drives, but in fact these are no longer drives! a drive is where you have a rotating motor which "drives" a disk. driving literally means to push with physical force. more accurate language would be "data storage device".


these modern x86 CPUS themselves are firmware above a RISC core, so there is firmware which isnt part of the mobo, but I am not aware the CPU's firmware can be updated as a CPU doesnt have USB sockets or floppy drive!

a PC is a jungle in a box, and it is only useful insofaras a user can do stuff with it when attached to monitor + speakers for output, and mouse + keyboard + games_controls for input. storage devices also for input and output. and this is only possible via programs and or operating systems.

I would thus prefer to refer to it as mobo firmware, rather than BIOS which is CPU centric. who knows what goes on in a mobo beyond the CPU, but there are probably auxiliary cpus implementing the mobo, eg the update which doesnt need the CPU might be enacted by these auxiliary cpus.

if I remember rightly with the original PC design, Motorola arranged the chip which managed the real time clock. that is a disembodied chip, embedded within the mobo somewhere!


the "BIOS update" would be some really low level of the mobo, I have some AMD document about some lower level, but I couldnt make sense of how one would access such stuff, I think its meant for firmware developers eg mobo developers. unable to find it just now.

I see a general problem with Intel architecture PCs, of proliferation of complexity, where there is too much stuff going on, and customers cannot cope with the complexity. where a lot of the advancement is wasted on most people. its a problem with mathematics, that with some experts, the only person who can understand their work is the expert who created it! and it has become "self serving". It involved major discussion with Aeacus to arrive at the Ace mobo, most people will never get to the Ace mobo, there are too many mobo manufacturers, too many mobos, etc. its too complicated!

if you can "update the BIOS" without CPU, does this mean the mobo without CPU produces an early startup screen?

that would be weird, a disembodied startup interface!

when I say disembodied, I mean like a ghost without a body, literally a person "with body removed", where for a computer the body is the CPU, "with CPU removed". disembowelled is where your digestive system is removed, "gutted".

But one thing is common for all, you need USB thumb drive where to put the new firmware file.
But actual steps differ. E.g some MoBos may require you to rename the firmware file to specific one (written in manual), others may require you to put the firmware file into root directory of USB thumb drive (again, explained in manual).

the reason they rename the file and put it at the top, is to be able to need less program code to reach it. I think the MSDOS filesystems were designed so you can shortcut to some files without having to utilise a full filesystem.

if they allowed the file anywhere, firstly you'd need some auxiliary file in a fixed location to say where that file was! which is now complexity proliferating, and then further complexity to navigate the filesystem to reach that file.

Now the user wants to be able to put stuff anywhere, eg install a program to an external drive, etc, and that requires a proper filesystem, and that is a lot of work.

So, when you're about to cross that bridge of BIOS update, do read the manual on how to do it.
It is explained in pages 70 and 71 in manual (or 72/73 in total pages). Your MoBo offers 3 different ways to update BIOS. 3rd one would be easiest/simplest.

as you say, the dual BIOS means they have fixed the hazard of BIOS updates.

can you change both BIOSes (via 2 successive updates), or is one fixed at manufacture time where you say can reset all firmware to a safe version, a bit like a reset of some equipment eg modems, and maybe the smartphone factory resets.

 

[Aeacus]

but how do you select if it is 2.4GHz or 5 or 6? as I currently only need 2.4, I'd prefer that as it has a stronger signal.

By selecting correct SSID when selecting wi-fi network to connect to.

If what you have at home is only 2.4 Ghz, then there is no option to choose from, other than that single option.

which version is the HDMI of my monitor?

HDMI 2.0

anyway, I dont think any shop in Bristol sells such a converter, and online I am struggling to find any place which sells such AND where delivery wont take too long.

So, you need 4mm to 6.35mm adapter?

This thing perhaps,
amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/IANROL-Adapter-6-35mm-Screwdriver-Magnetic/dp/B0BNLBYPLL/

yes, but can you set torque to 0.3 N.m with the makita?

Haven't read the manual that in-depth, so, i don't know the gear torque values my Makita power drill has. After all, i bought it to drill holes in the wall, rather than screwing screws in, that i can do just fine by hand.

what I really meant was "publicly available"

Well, it isn't a secret per se, since every MoBo spec page (Support part of it), has the BIOS versions listed and one can download different versions of BIOS firmware files freely.

thus their comment might as well just say "the BIOS is firmware", but in that case the word BIOS is redundant, just call it firmware! because if what they say is true, they are saying BIOS is firmware, which just means software embedded within hardware to implement a black box eg a washing machine, or calculator.

What you have on your MoBo, isn't BIOS but instead UEFI. Essentially all MoBos since ~2010 have UEFI, but also support BIOS as well.

As for in wording, many refer UEFI as BIOS, rather than UEFI, since a lot more people know what BIOS is, compared to knowing what UEFI is.
Further reading about what UEFI is: https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/Unified-Extensible-Firmware-Interface-UEFI

if you can "update the BIOS" without CPU, does this mean the mobo without CPU produces an early startup screen?

No.

Updating BIOS without CPU and/or RAM is essentially a "blind update". Whereby you do not see any image on screen. Only indicator that BIOS update is ongoing, is the specific LED light on MoBo, which shows the progress and completion. While update is in progress, the LED will flash. Once LED turns off, update is done.

can you change both BIOSes (via 2 successive updates), or is one fixed at manufacture time where you say can reset all firmware to a safe version, a bit like a reset of some equipment eg modems, and maybe the smartphone factory resets.

Yes, you can update both BIOSes. And you can also brick both BIOSes, bricking entire MoBo.

Now, your MoBo doesn't have BIOS flashback feature, whereby MoBo would have 2nd chip to house backup (passive) BIOS, which you can not change or access, but is there for redundancy. Where when you brick the BIOS during update, you can use the flashback feature, where MoBo then takes the backup (passive) BIOS and overwrites the corrupt (active) BIOS, so that you can get your MoBo working again.
Instead, your MoBo has two active BIOSes, that you can switch in-between and update both, if you so desire.

In a nutshell;
most MoBos - single BIOS
high-end MoBos - BIOS flashback
top-end MoBos - dual BIOS

 

[Richard1234]

By selecting correct SSID when selecting wi-fi network to connect to.

If what you have at home is only 2.4 Ghz, then there is no option to choose from, other than that single option.


HDMI 2.0

but if that cable is 1.4, will it give me the full power of the monitor?

maybe I should have gotten a usb-C to usb-C vid cable, with HDMI converter at the end, as I could then use that if and when I upgrade the monitor, and just change the converter.

So, you need 4mm to 6.35mm adapter?

This thing perhaps,
amazon UK: https://www.amazon.co.uk/IANROL-Adapter-6-35mm-Screwdriver-Magnetic/dp/B0BNLBYPLL/

the problem is delivery is 5th March, which is 13 days in the future!

with the torque screwdriver, it arrived I think the next day.

I will try to visit another DIY store in a satellite town, I realised I can get 6.35mm bits from screwdriver sets, just not the 4mm to 6.35mm adapter.

one problem is a lot of the kits dont say what size they are.

maybe I can get a 6.35mm torque screwdriver, but these things cost maybe £90,

Spoiler: some off topic opinions

In Britain, there is an agenda to disempower the general public, where the more empowering stuff isnt available in the stores. eg when the Dyson hoop fan was released, where it is this hoop with air flowing through it as if by black magic, that was in the stores in Germany, but when I returned to England it wasnt in the stores, yet is a british product! Also I watched some Hollywood film in Germany at an english language cinema, then when I returned to England, I saw a bus advertising it as being released in Britain some weeks in the future!

another example: in Germany in the media markt store, they had a 3D camcorder, where you could stand in front of it and see yourself in 3D on a nearby screen, but in England no such thing in the stores. Here in Bristol at that time, the PCWorld was the largest in the country, ginormous store, looking at Google Earth about 81m x 81m, ie 57% bigger than a soccer pitch, its that entire building complex at 51°31'37.46"N 2°36'3.69"W during covid they shrunk the store and created an upper floor. PCWorld is a french company, DSG.

for some reason we have ginormous shopping places in Bristol, much bigger than London, eg we have a mall which is 1/3 km long, I actually use a car there to get from shop to shop! using the outer entrances. it has 5000 parking places, so during the week easy to park near the mall. on Saturday the entire region of the country converges on the mall and no parking places. we have a small satellite town Yate, which has a supermarket with floor area 128m x 92m, 2.8x the area of a soccer pitch, 51°32'23.10"N 2°24'39.95"W. these stores are expeditions to browse around. And it is a challenge to perceive the totality of the stores.

Haven't read the manual that in-depth, so, i don't know the gear torque values my Makita power drill has. After all, i bought it to drill holes in the wall, rather than screwing screws in, that i can do just fine by hand.

torque is going to be high medium or low so to speak, I havent seen a machine which does the entire gamut!

Spoiler: slightly off topic on precise control over a big range of values

its tricky engineering to make things which can deal with a bigger spectrum of measurements, in the UK, the robot tills seem to be able to weigh from really light to really heavy items.

to be able to do a wide gamut of torques, you probably need gears! like with the 3 hands of a watch, where the second hand does 1 revolution/minute, but the small hand does 1 rev/12 hours! which is simultaneous gearing, but that might make the machine either very expensive or very big, maybe with some form of transmission of the torque. I bought a mechanical screwdriver from Woolworths long ago, which transmits the torque along a flexible transmission. its better just to have several machines, use the right specialised tool for the job.

I have some german calipers which measure to 0.1mm accuracy, but they only go up to 12cm. I have a german (Bosch) laser measurer, which measures I think up to 25m up to 1mm accuracy. you place it eg on a wall, and press the button and a red dot appears on the other wall, press again and it tells you the distance in millimetres.

Well, it isn't a secret per se, since every MoBo spec page (Support part of it), has the BIOS versions listed and one can download different versions of BIOS firmware files freely.

what I meant is what the file does, the object is publicly available, but the contents are secret!
it might include executable code for an undocumented chip,

What you have on your MoBo, isn't BIOS but instead UEFI. Essentially all MoBos since ~2010 have UEFI, but also support BIOS as well.

As for in wording, many refer UEFI as BIOS, rather than UEFI, since a lot more people know what BIOS is, compared to knowing what UEFI is.
Further reading about what UEFI is: https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/Unified-Extensible-Firmware-Interface-UEFI

ok, people are already using the word indiscriminately! BIOS UEFI firmware whatever!

Spoiler: slightly off topic on indiscriminate terminology

its like the word engineer, this guy told me he is now an engineer, on further interrogation, he instals and maintains the refrigeration on supermarket delivery vans. for me that is more a mechanic than an engineer. for me an engineer is someone who engineers things, creating new bespoke structures, eg bridges or designs new hardware. Technically I feel the word should only be used if you have an engineering degree, where although a programmer does engineer software, I think engineering should just relate to physical structures. programming is more virtual, like music, maths, fiction. Best to just say "programmer" than "software engineer". the really indiscriminate word is IT.

for language to be good, its important to discuss the use of language, including questioning current usage.

eg originally they talked of "global warming", but then they found some weather could get colder, so they revised the terminology to now be "climate change". With the EU, it used to be the EEC, then I think it became the EC and eventually the EU.

No.

Updating BIOS without CPU and/or RAM is essentially a "blind update". Whereby you do not see any image on screen. Only indicator that BIOS update is ongoing, is the specific LED light on MoBo, which shows the progress and completion. While update is in progress, the LED will flash. Once LED turns off, update is done.

the mobo has leds? are these covered in the Ace manual?

Yes, you can update both BIOSes. And you can also brick both BIOSes, bricking entire MoBo.

you have 2 chances to get things right! no 3rd chances. the other BIOS is the last chance saloon!

Now, your MoBo doesn't have BIOS flashback feature, whereby MoBo would have 2nd chip to house backup (passive) BIOS, which you can not change or access, but is there for redundancy.

sounds like the way to do things!

Where when you brick the BIOS during update, you can use the flashback feature, where MoBo then takes the backup (passive) BIOS and overwrites the corrupt (active) BIOS, so that you can get your MoBo working again.
Instead, your MoBo has two active BIOSes, that you can switch in-between and update both, if you so desire.

In a nutshell;
most MoBos - single BIOS
high-end MoBos - BIOS flashback
top-end MoBos - dual BIOS

I wont try updating the BIOS except as a very last resort.

do these updates all go to a very specific "permanent" memory chip, or could they be scattered around the mobo?

 

[Aeacus]

but if that cable is 1.4, will it give me the full power of the monitor?

No.

HDMI 1.4 (that 16 feet cable) can do 4K at 30 Hz.
HDMI 2.0 (what your monitor is) can do 4K at 60 Hz.

So, if you don't mind loosing 30 FPS, you can use HDMI 1.4 cable as well.

the problem is delivery is 5th March, which is 13 days in the future!

Well, then you need to Google it some more. Or perhaps pay for expedited shipping. Your call.

what I meant is what the file does, the object is publicly available, but the contents are secret!
it might include executable code for an undocumented chip,

Paranoid much?

Well, if you were to download the firmware file from 3rd party site, with questionable source, then yes, there are grounds to be paranoid. File could contain rootkits.

But downloading it directly from MoBo manufacturer's official webpage? It really doesn't get any more official/legit than that. Other than you contacting MSI directly via customer support and then customer support person sending you the firmware file directly. Most likely they refer you to the official download site on MoBo Support page.

ok, people are already using the word indiscriminately! BIOS UEFI firmware whatever!

This reminds me our talk of old, where you referred all memory modules as SIMMs, including current DDR modules, which are actually DIMMs.
But i digress.

the mobo has leds? are these covered in the Ace manual?

Yes, MoBo has several LEDs on it. It would almost lit up like a Christmas tree when you power it on.

And important LEDs are covered in manual as well.
E.g;
* BIOS update LED - while manual doesn't specify where the LED is, my guess is that it's under the "Flash BIOS button" on rear I/O panel. Namely, page 23 (25 in total pages), item #8.
* EZ debug LEDs - page 60 (62 in total pages).
* Debug code LED - page 61 (63 in total pages).

And several eyecandy ones as well, like:
* MSI dragon logo on MoBo VRM heatsink
* MEG lettering on 2nd VRM heatsink
* ACE lettering on one of the M.2 heatsinks
* LIGHTING GEN 5 lettering on another M.2 heatsink
* (illuminati ) triangle on the chipset heatsink

There are most likely some more LEDs, but the first three i listed are important ones.

do these updates all go to a very specific "permanent" memory chip, or could they be scattered around the mobo?

BIOS lives in a dedicated BIOS chip on the MoBo. Since your MoBo has dual BIOS, it has two of such BIOS chips on the MoBo.

Now, i don't know if you've seen the unboxing/teardown videos of your MoBo, but found two good ones, that you can give a look;

Unboxing;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKvCcNwR06I


Teardown;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siQ1QXE7l54


Teardown video is actually quite interesting to watch (at least to me). But since you now have that MoBo, might want to know "your precious" better as well.
At 13:25 in the teardown video is talk about BIOS chips (hence why i looked up the teardown video in the first place).