[SOLVED] New DDR4 3600 not working with previous RAM that is the exact same

[biggcouch]

I have gotten 16GB of 3600 speed DDR4 for Christmas to expand my system to 32gbs of RAM.
I thought it would be a simple plug-and-play (other than going to the bios and changing the XMP profile to make sure all is running on 3600), but this was not the case. When I installed the new RAM and changed the XMP profile that had 3600 and 1.36V as default from the MSI motherboard I booted into windows and experienced two windows crashes and multiple what looked like driver failures as I would have black screens or a white bar and black bottom screen. I checked to see if it saw all four sticks (it did), updated the bios to the latest version(didn't help) freshly installed windows(did nothing). The system works completely fine with XMP 3600 with 16gbs of ram as that's what I'm running right now with no problems.

Does anyone know what I could be doing wrong either in bios or windows? I'm stumped and normally I'm pretty good with these things.

System:
Motherboard: MSI b450 tomahawk max
CPU: Ryzen 5 3600
Ram: 16GB (32) of 3600 viper steel ram
GPU: MSI 1660Ti
Storage: Blue Digital 500GB SSD (windows) Evo 970 500GB (fast run games), 2TB HDD (videos, etc)

 

[Darkbreeze]

Some Ryzen platforms really tend to balk when presented with a 4 DIMM memory configuration, and you have a few additional negatives going against you in that you have DIMMs that did not all come together and were therefore not only not tested together but may not even be compatible with each other or in fact even the same configuration regardless of being the same model.

Read this for an explanation on that:

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/amd-ram-compatibility.3210050/#post-19785792


And a further explanation on the use of mixed memory, section titled "Mixed memory (Or the odd man out) here:

How To - Troubleshooting problems with PC memory (RAM) and XMP profile configurations

In the beginning, there was......BIOS Before you go ANY further, go to the manufacturer product page for your specific motherboard model AND revision. Revision is an important aspect because for any given motherboard there may be more than one version of that model which will be identified...

forums.tomshardware.com

With four DIMMs installed, as explained in that guide as well, you may need to incrementally bump up the DRAM voltage in the BIOS to stabilize the memory configuration when using four DIMMs but there is certainly a chance that the problem is not voltage related and is simply that the two separate kits do not want to play nice with each other or with the memory controller.

 

[biggcouch]

Thank you so much!, I was wondering if I needed to compensate with more voltage but didn't want to fry anything. I will go up .01 each time and reboot to see if any more stable. Kinda sucks that even its the same exact ram that it still might totally not work together. Ill keep trying and see if it works. Thanks again!
is their a certain program I should use to diagnose what die I have to see if they are compatible?

 

[Darkbreeze]

You can use Thaiphoon burner but some scanning utilities (virus, malware) including Windows defender will tag it as an infection so you may need to configure an exception for it on your machine if it detects it as one. But, you can also look at the sticker on the DIMMs themselves and see if there is a production date code on there and whether it is the same or not.

 

[Karadjgne]

Kinda sucks that even its the same exact ram that it still might totally not work together.

You missed the point. It's not the exact same ram. The 2 original sticks are the exact same, as are the 2 new sticks.

Ram is made up of a pcb with silicon chips welded to it. That's all. Doesn't matter if the heatsink is identical, the model, color, kit, speeds, timings etc, the fact is the silicon itself is different.

Silicon comes in sheets from the manufacturer. Each sheet has a specific grade, which could be 99% pure silicon. But it's that 1% impurities that changes everything. If your original kit is 1% gold, and the new kit is 1% copper, they may very well be electrically compatible and work great out of the box, but if the new kit is 1% lead, you'll have issues that may not be overcome.

There's only 3 possible results when mixing kits. It works, it works with tinkering, it doesn't work. That's all. And there's absolutely no rhyme or reason to it, since it's impossible without destroying the ram, to figure out if it will or won't work without trying.

The heatsink and model is just a paint job. You have the same chances of success or failure mixing any ram, whether the paint job is the same or different. You could pair the original kit with a Corsair or Kingston kit, and it works, or use 2 seemingly identical kits and fail utterly.

There's only One Guarantee about mixing kits, that being there Are no guarantees. Period.

 

[biggcouch]

Thanks for further explanation, to test to see if it would work together could I increase voltage to see if I could get the system stable? Also could I look at a sticker or something that would tell me the impurity if two metals work together or not? Or is one metal not compatible with another or does it depend. Like is one metal always not compatible with another.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Getting memory to work together that doesn't want to is much the same as trying to manually overclock a memory kit. It's trial and error regarding speed/frequency, voltage and timings. It also is basically outlined in the guide I posted a link to earlier "Troubleshooting XMP configurations" etc. and also this guide, which I reference often.

Comprehensive Memory Overclocking Guide

www.overclock.net

But the best option is always either just getting a single kit with only two DIMMs in it that has all the capacity you think you will need OR getting a four DIMM kit that includes DIMMs that have all been tested together and validated to be compatible.

 

[biggcouch]

Alright I’ll take a look into the guide and if it’s stable I could probably settle for a lower speed just for more memory. It would work at default 2133 giving me the image it might work. Thanks for all your help again.

 

[Darkbreeze]

I would probably start by trying the following.

Go into BIOS. Make sure XMP is not enabled. Manually set the memory speed/frequency to 3200mhz. Manually set the DRAM voltage to 1.35v. Make sure all other advanced memory settings are set to Auto. Save settings and exit BIOS. If that does not work, try it again but this time increase the DRAM voltage slightly using the + key to raise it by the minimum increment possible. Save settings exit BIOS and try again. Rinse and repeat if it still doesn't work until you have reached like 1.38v or thereabouts. No more than 1.4v maximum and preferably as low as possible to get stable. If it still won't work by the time you've reached near to 1.4v then I'd reset the BIOS and start over.

This time, set the XMP profile but then manually change the frequency to 3200mhz. Save settings and exit. See if it works. If it does not, then you are stuck with either using the methods outlined at the links I provided or scrapping the whole idea and looking for a matched set or simply getting a two DIMM kit with the capacity you desire to run and maybe returning or selling the existing memory.

 

[biggcouch]

I changed it to 3200 1.35v and the bios said it failed then I tried 3000 1.33v and would start and do things fine till the game launched and would BSOD. I tried the try it! presets in the MSI bios for a couple of others ones and would get the same result. I think that when they draw the power they need for gaming it just doesn't work right with its differences. So I am going to get a 4dimm kit that is tested for 32gb of RAM and return the one I have received. Thanks for helping me and guiding me through the process, you are a true lifesaver because there really isn't a lot on the internet I could find about this.

 

[Darkbreeze]

For any speed above 2400mhz it needs to be AT LEAST 1.35v.

And with a four DIMM kit it sometimes needs to be HIGHER than 1.35v, like I outlined above. You can usually bump the DRAM voltage up incrementally by like .005v increments, but some boards will only allow a .020v increment changes. Either way, you can try first bumping up to like 1.355v, then 1.36v, then 1.365v. After each increase in DRAM voltage you will need to save settings and restart. Or, if you have a board that will only allow incremental changes of .020v, then it might look more like 1.37v, then 1.39v. If it isn't stable by 1.39v then it probably isn't going to change anything by going higher and is definitely going to dramatically increase the memory temperature.

So trying at 3000mhz but only 1.33v is going the wrong way with voltage. Try 3200mhz with 1.355 or 1.36v, or 3000mhz with 1.35 or 1.355v. Be sure to try with both XMP disabled and if that fails to work then try with XMP enabled but manual settings for memory speed and voltage.

Or, if you just don't want to mess with it, then getting a matched set is fine but honestly I would not look for a 4 DIMM kit because as I said in the beginning, Ryzen tends to not like running four DIMMs at high speeds. At low speeds it's fine, but you lose a lot of performance that way. Look for a two DIMM kit instead.

For example:

PCPartPicker Part List

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($79.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $79.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-12-26 17:59 EST-0500

 

[biggcouch]

I was more leaning towards this https://www.amazon.com/Corsair-Veng...ywords=corsair+lpx&qid=1606680451&sr=8-1&th=1
I thought there would be drawbacks to running 16gb sticks, like maybe more performance per stick (in amazon the 4x8 3600 kit)

 

[Darkbreeze]

No, there is not "more performance per stick". What there is, is more "problems" per stick, almost always.

The more DIMMs that are installed, the more stress there is on the memory controller and therefore not only more heat, but more instability in the CPU where the memory controller resides. There are some who claim minor gains in performance using four DIMMs on Ryzen and while it's true, it's only true when using low speed memory OR after a GREAT AMOUNT of tweaking the memory settings. I've seen no evidence that for any 3000+mhz kit with four DIMMs there were any performance gains at the stock XMP configuration, but I HAVE absolutely seen evidence and concrete proof that running a four DIMM configuration in most systems leads to a definite increase in the potential for problems with high speed kits.

The tighter the timings are for a given kit, the more likely it is to see such problems. If you want a very fast kit, then find a kit like this one with a 3600mhz frequency but a very low CL14 latency. With a true latency under 8ns you won't find a kit that's faster and still works with your hardware. It's also a lot more expensive. Even a 3200mhz CL14 kit would be pretty fast. Having four DIMMs though, isn't ever going to make anything measurably faster in real world scenarios.

Besides which, you want to avoid Vengeance LPX memory on Ryzen platforms. I've seen it work in some cases, but usually it won't or it will but it has problems that cannot be resolved. Best to stick with better kits like G.Skill Ripjaws, Neos, Trident Z, Corsair Dominator Platinum or Vengeance non-LPX kits. Any memory kit that is 3200mhz or higher with a CL14 latency is likely a very good kit that will work well with Ryzen too. That's not to say that CL16 or CL18 kits aren't fine too. The difference aren't going to be earth shattering in performance. Better, but not night and day.

PCPartPicker Part List

Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3600 CL14 Memory ($209.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $209.99
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2022-12-26 18:24 EST-0500

 

[Kona45primo]

Ryzen 3xxx don't play very well with 4 sticks of 3600. The fact that you could get 2 sticks @ 3600 is pretty impressive.

If you're in the market for a new CPU, lets say a 5600/5600X/5700X , I've heard those CPU's do handle 4X8 @ 3600mhz much better & that is the preferred high performance combo.

The 3xxx stable performance combo was 2X8 3200mhz CL14

Still sadly no guarantee as both 3X & 5X cpu's officially only support 3200mhz, but I'm on the hunt for 4X8 3600mhz to replace the 2X8 3200mhz I have now that I've upgraded from 3700x to 5700x

 

[Karadjgne]

Ryzen 1/2/3000 series doesn't like 4x sticks at high speeds, generally 2400/2666/2933MHz respectively. But, it's possible to get 2666/2933/3200MHz if you use the right ram, as in 8Gb, single rank sticks. Use of 16Gb or 8Gb dual rank will knock you back down to the lower standards. Most times. There are exceptions.

5000 series actually likes 4x sticks. But again, it's dependent on rank. 16Gb+ is all dual rank, 8Gb or below can be either single or dual. 2x16Gb gets the best throughput, 4x8Gb SR is very slightly behind with no stability issues. 4x8Gb DR is behind that, on par with 4x16Gb. But you are talking about a @ 1 nanosecond± difference in throughput, not speed limitations or stability issues.

It's really not something noticeable unless using highly ram dependent software and you'd be shaving a couple of seconds every other minute at best.

 

[Darkbreeze]

The fact that you could get 2 sticks @ 3600 is pretty impressive.

Every 3xxx and 5xxx Ryzen system I've built so far has gotten 3600mhz sticks and they all worked fine. Well, that's not true. One system with a 3600x in it got a set of 2 x8GB 3200mhz CL14 sticks. The rest were pretty much all G.Skill 2x8GB or 2x16GB 3600mhz CL16 sticks. Average boards too.

Mostly some B450 Tomahawk Max and B550 Pro4 boards with one X570 Aorus elite ax, so like maybe ten or eleven using 3xxx and 5xxx parts so far and all of them have been fine, zero problems, with 3600mhz DIMMs.

 

[Karadjgne]

I'm running a 3700x with 2x16Gb 3600/16 G.Skill RipJaws.
Zen2 had no real issues running 3600MHz, or even 3733MHz, but did slow down at 3800MHz, only because of the 1:2 ratio in infinity fabric.