News Noctua pitches its PC fans as home heating boosters — active fans beat natural convection

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Can yall hire someone who has an electrical engineering background, for the love of god... the only appropriate reaction to PR this stupid, is to have someone who knows the difference between central air blowers, and 120mm computer case fans, mock it mercilessly, and have actually send a list of genuine follow up questions on the calculations they used, to feel confident their "solution" is better than the much more established (central air, mini-splits, etc), and often much much cheaper per fan, and per fan meters³ of air moved. Typically a small/medium sized house with central air has a several HP motor running the large metal fan/air mover. In the US expect to pay $100 a HP for a new motor... how many HP do $100 of noctuas fans have?

Everyone... that dude... the writer of this article .. should also know wafting air over a home radiator is an extremely inefficient way to transfer heat from the stationary, small object, to air that's not markedly cooler. Central heating with air works, because the air is being 1. Compressed by that massive motor/fan assembly, denser air has more thermal conductivity, and 2. It's in that preferred state as it's pushed through extremely hot heating elements. Much hotter than any exposed radiator could ever be.

Y'alls current "work" is so disrespectful to who tomshardware used to be back in the day,
You don't need an electrical engineer to understand how heat pumps, or home heating systems in general, work. It would be HVAC engineers business to understand them anyway.

In a central air heating system you're using a "several HP motor" to do two tasks, transfer heat from a heat source with a relatively small footprint (since it must fit inside the machine) AND to move that heat into every room of a house.

In a central water heating system you're using a water pump to move the heat into every room of the house. Then, you are using relatively large, passive radiators in each room to transfer the heat into ambient air. So by default, the whole system is intented to work with no fans at all, unlike the centrail air heating.

If you've done any research on PC water cooling, you'll already know that radiators that are designed to be passively cooled are much larger than ones intented to be used with fans, but you can still massively increase passive coolers performance with fans. I've already explained in other comments why "cooling" the home radiators as much as possible is important, so I wont explain that again here.

What I do agree with that I would like to see some more detailed calculations than just the 5-10% estimation they give. Estimation based on what.

There are already dedicated products on the market that fill the same role much better. The Kermi x-flair is a radiator with fans designed right into it (no eyesore), and for improving the existing radiators the SpeedComfort Duo offers an aftermarket alternative.

In both cases the idea is the same as with the CPU coolers: you have a warm spot, from which you want to transfer as much heat energy to the ambient air as possible. Passive convection could work, but quickly hits its limits. A single large fan would work marginally better. But for the best results you'll want to push lots of air over the heat exchanger fins. And for that nothing can beat built-in fans.
That's cool, I didn't know they already made products for this.
 
Those would not work, because the temperature difference between the radiator and ambiet air is too small. It would also be very difficult to install properly because if you put the base against the radiator, the fan is not facing between the plates.
I ask as I do it...

The fluid in my radiators is set to 80 centigrade by the boiler. I have a wood-stove fan that works just fine on my dual-panel radiators that have a convection layer in-between them. It circulates the air over time nicely and was simple to fit. On the one radiator that has traffic near it, I have an almost-invisible cable tie holding the fan down in case it gets knocked.
 
I ask as I do it...

The fluid in my radiators is set to 80 centigrade by the boiler. I have a wood-stove fan that works just fine on my dual-panel radiators that have a convection layer in-between them. It circulates the air over time nicely and was simple to fit. On the one radiator that has traffic near it, I have an almost-invisible cable tie holding the fan down in case it gets knocked.
Interesting, can you share a picture? What kind of efficinecy increase have you measured from using it, and how did you measure it? What heat source do you have?

Water temperature may be 80 at the boiler, but it is not that high on the radiators. With heat pumps, it should be around 30-50 C, depending on the outside temperature.
 
Interesting, can you share a picture? What kind of efficinecy increase have you measured from using it, and how did you measure it? What heat source do you have?

Water temperature may be 80 at the boiler, but it is not that high on the radiators. With heat pumps, it should be around 30-50 C, depending on the outside temperature.
Who said anything about heat pumps? We upgraded to a Bosch 40kw gas boiler last year after our ancient 18kw Frankenstein model finally gave up the ghost (we'd had an external expansion tank fitted and all sorts to try and keep it running). As it's a fair boost in heat power (mainly so the showers actually work in the winter!), the radiators are able to be run so much hotter than before. So yes, of course there is fluctuation in temperature of them across the house, but once it's been running for a few minutes, all rads are too hot to touch.

I'm not sure what kind of 'experiment' you thought I was conducting or why you feel the need for peer review, but measurement was fairly simple - without changing the thermostat temperature, my favourite seat (which is some distance away from the radiator) feels much warmer. For my seating position to feel warm, I'd often increase the thermostat for a while to 22c, but since putting the fans on, I am comfortable to leave it at our normal 19.
 
Who said anything about heat pumps?
The Noctua article. It does mention other heating types as well, but that the difference in efficiency is not that much.

without changing the thermostat temperature, my favourite seat (which is some distance away from the radiator) feels much warmer.
The article talks about increasing the efficiency of the heating. Better efficiency means that you get the same amout of heating power with less electricty (or fuel) consumed. Or more heat with the same amout of electricity consumed.

What you're experiencing is more heat output, or more directed heat output, withouth considering the change in efficiency. So it is not the same reason as why Noctua is suggesting the use of fans. But it is true that your overall fuel use is probably lower, even if efficinecy has not changed, since you're able to turn down the thermostat, or average room temperature.

why you feel the need for peer review
Because I find this topic very interesting. I have installed double radiators in my room, which meant that I can significantly decrease the water temperature from the heat pump, while retaining the same room temperature. My whole elecritcity consumption decreased about 25 % (one week interval with similar outside temperature), compared to a single radiator. Obviously this solution would not work for a family, because the rest of the house is pretty cold now (I mostly live in this one room). But, potentially, the same results could have been achieved with fans instead of a 2nd radiator.
 
When you live in an apartment like much of Europe, the 'savings' from fan forcing your heaters comes from causing your heating usage to be undercounted so your neighbors pay more instead.
 
When you live in an apartment like much of Europe, the 'savings' from fan forcing your heaters comes from causing your heating usage to be undercounted so your neighbors pay more instead.
With what kind of heating system would this be true?

If it is a direct electric heater, they willl measure your elecricity consumption, so you pay for what you use. If it's water circulated heating, then they cannot measure what anyone consumes. I dont know how they would bill you for heat, so no way to "undercount" it either.
 
With what kind of heating system would this be true?

If it is a direct electric heater, they willl measure your elecricity consumption, so you pay for what you use. If it's water circulated heating, then they cannot measure what anyone consumes. I dont know how they would bill you for heat, so no way to "undercount" it either.
The water circulated heaters, in Germany at least, have devices on each radiator that estimate heading usage by monitoring the temperature. The heating costs are then allocated to residents proportionally based on those measurements. If you can get energy out of the radiator quicker out will cause your usage to be under estimated and you pay a smaller proportion while your neighbors pay more.
 
The Noctua article. It does mention other heating types as well, but that the difference in efficiency is not that much.


The article talks about increasing the efficiency of the heating. Better efficiency means that you get the same amout of heating power with less electricty (or fuel) consumed. Or more heat with the same amout of electricity consumed.

What you're experiencing is more heat output, or more directed heat output, withouth considering the change in efficiency. So it is not the same reason as why Noctua is suggesting the use of fans. But it is true that your overall fuel use is probably lower, even if efficinecy has not changed, since you're able to turn down the thermostat, or average room temperature.


Because I find this topic very interesting. I have installed double radiators in my room, which meant that I can significantly decrease the water temperature from the heat pump, while retaining the same room temperature. My whole elecritcity consumption decreased about 25 % (one week interval with similar outside temperature), compared to a single radiator. Obviously this solution would not work for a family, because the rest of the house is pretty cold now (I mostly live in this one room). But, potentially, the same results could have been achieved with fans instead of a 2nd radiator.
Depends how you describe efficiency and I wouldn't want to make false claims, but I think you understand that from your comment. The heat in the room is being spread around the room, so I don't have to compensate by having one part of the room much warmer than the part I actually sit in. I'm not saying that having a gentle breeze makes my boiler use less gas when it's in use - just that the heat it generates is more effectively spread around, so I turn it on a little less.

I have no evidence for this, but I'm fairly sure the fans work well on a double radiator as they already have a strong convection effect between them - you are helping to better direct an airflow that's already in production.
 
The water circulated heaters, in Germany at least, have devices on each radiator that estimate heading usage by monitoring the temperature. The heating costs are then allocated to residents proportionally based on those measurements. If you can get energy out of the radiator quicker out will cause your usage to be under estimated and you pay a smaller proportion while your neighbors pay more.

So the hot water heater for the radiators is centralized for the building ? If as you say, each apartment then has an individual meter to tally their personal consumption and then everyone pays their fraction of the main boilers consumption, wouldnt the total heating cost also drop ?
I know that on the scale of an apartment building, one guy using his heating more efficiently will fall within the margin of error of the system, the neighbours would only pay extra if the main boiler ran at a "fixed speed" and used X units of fuel a month no matter what. If the boiler has the ability to cut off or vary its output then technically it would compensate for the lower load from one apartment. Even if the former is true then the extra cost spread over several apartments would be a very small amount.
Its quite admirable how you are concerned about this like a good neighbour and citizen. Maybe to boost everyone else's savings you could suggest that they do the same so that the overall heating cost comes down.

While I understand that heating costs are high, its relatively easy to produce heat efficiently since it is a byproduct of so many things we already use, hell you can get a couple of people in a tent your body will up the space to comfortable levels without any extra heating. Good insulation and some air movement helps a lot.

From my two years spent in northern England, my take on heating is that the stuffiness that goes with it and the localized heat zones were the worst bits. Some low speed ceiling fans would have helped a lot but they seem uncommon in cooler climates. Things might change with global warming on the rise. Cracking the window open just made one side hot and an annoying cold draft on the other side.

As someone from a hot, humid tropical country , what I would like to see is more effective, efficient and well priced localized or personal COOLING solutions. Room air conditioners need to get more efficient, even though variable speed inverter compressors have helped. On top of this something to keep you comfortable while you are out an about. The various types of fans can just about manage to make the heat bearable but cant make it comfortable, the way an AC can obviously because they cant remove humidity effectively.
Peltiers are inefficient and solutions based around them usually end up bulky or not powerful/long lasting enough.

Something like a desktop compressor based AC would be neat, just to hit you with some cool, dry air until you get settled enough to a point where a regular fan would be enough and at the same time you dont use a lot of energy cooling down the entire room. Obviously venting the hot air and draining the condensation becomes an isssue with these. There are some portable and battery powered "camping" air conditioners available like the Ecoflow Wave that could be charged up by solar. However the problem with these is the cost. For the price of the Wave and similar devices ~ $1000, I can buy a much more efficient air conditioner for half the price and pay for using it 9 hours a day for two years.

We are already seeing an increased demand for air conditioning due to global warming. A number of my EU friends have gotten ACs fitted over the last few years because of all the hotter summers. The heating + cooling types seem to be a good investment in such places as they seem to work pretty efficiently at heating until you get to the lower single digits. Gas heating is still cheaper though.

Man, I wish I didnt live in an apartment so that I could make use of solar.
 
For years now I've been using four 140mm PC fans mounted to a plywood panel and installed in a wall between a storage room and my main downstairs space to get a bit of air moving. It really helps in evening out the temperature and humidity in that enclosed 24-foot long space. With a 14" square metal louver panel installed it is quite inconspicuous in the finished space and is essentially inaudible.
 
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Already have a heater with 3 active fans - the cooler for my OC'ed 14900. Does a great job at knocking the chill out of my cold office.
 
Can yall hire someone who has an electrical engineering background, for the love of god... the only appropriate reaction to PR this stupid, is to have someone who knows the difference between central air blowers, and 120mm computer case fans, mock it mercilessly, and have actually send a list of genuine follow up questions on the calculations they used, to feel confident their "solution" is better than the much more established (central air, mini-splits, etc), and often much much cheaper per fan, and per fan meters³ of air moved. Typically a small/medium sized house with central air has a several HP motor running the large metal fan/air mover. In the US expect to pay $100 a HP for a new motor... how many HP do $100 of noctuas fans have?

Everyone... that dude... the writer of this article .. should also know wafting air over a home radiator is an extremely inefficient way to transfer heat from the stationary, small object, to air that's not markedly cooler. Central heating with air works, because the air is being 1. Compressed by that massive motor/fan assembly, denser air has more thermal conductivity, and 2. It's in that preferred state as it's pushed through extremely hot heating elements. Much hotter than any exposed radiator could ever be.

Y'alls current "work" is so disrespectful to who tomshardware used to be back in the day,
Bud... You know that radiant heat is used all over the world? That the up front cost is much cheaper than more modern options? That old radiators and pipes are easily reusable, and installs can last upwards of a century? That it can heat your house without the need for any electricity? That it's incredibly reliable for entire generations? Why go so deep into the HVAC muck, when you can slap a box fan to the front of your ancient cast iron radiator (as has been the custom for the last century) or multiple, low voltage, smaller fans under or on top, as Noctua is proposing? This isn't at all new. This is mostly just a marketing exercise.
 
The people who have poo-pooed this idea is truly amazing! Many older building still us water or steam radiators heating. This is a great solution to the problem of apartment clutter blocking air circulation in these environments. If you build DIY systems, you have extra fans (AKA, the crappy fans that came with your case). A few connectors and an old 12 power supply, and you're good to go. I can't hurt to try. (Also great to pull air through screens during the summer). There is no need to use a new $60 fan when a $12 "retired" fan will do.
 
Noctua appears to be attempting to break out of its PC DIY niche. A recently published blog post advises using fans throughout the residence for efficient home heating.

Noctua pitches its PC fans as home heating boosters — active fans beat natural convection : Read more
I learned in heat transfer class many years ago that forced convection of air transfers heat around an order of magnitude more efficiently than free convection, specific numbers depend on situation. Regardless, its hard to imagine how this solution will measurably reduce home energy consumption.