Funny how Mac sales have actually increased after they introduced their store, and no one fears a closed OSX from the king of all closed platforms, but somehow a store for Win8/RT/WP/XBox -applications is a terrible premonition of desktop dying off ( even after MS improved it ).
- Status
m8r-xjiiil
Honorable
- Sep 28, 2012
- 5
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- 10,510
been using windows 8 since first CTP, never gonna go back to old thing, can't understand ppl crying blody murder, steam works, everithing works, faster, leaner, better, dont even miss the start menu, metro felt wierd at first but now it makes sence and i use it, even productivity helps a bit though i dont like limiting metro to 1 screen, in my 3 screen setup i could benefit from metro snap-split views on at least 2 side monitors.
[citation][nom]Bloob[/nom]Funny how Mac sales have actually increased after they introduced their store, and no one fears a closed OSX from the king of all closed platforms, but somehow a store for Win8/RT/WP/XBox -applications is a terrible premonition of desktop dying off ( even after MS improved it ).[/citation]
Uh....you know there's a reason Windows' market share dwarfs OSX right? No one in the PC world even cares about OSX. No one "fears" it because the only people that use it are Apple people that are already okay with Apple's walled garden approach to OSes. Windows people don't fear it because we just don't use it. Windows 8 strikes fear into PC minds because the only other open platform will be Linux which lacks Direct X, the main API for games.
Uh....you know there's a reason Windows' market share dwarfs OSX right? No one in the PC world even cares about OSX. No one "fears" it because the only people that use it are Apple people that are already okay with Apple's walled garden approach to OSes. Windows people don't fear it because we just don't use it. Windows 8 strikes fear into PC minds because the only other open platform will be Linux which lacks Direct X, the main API for games.
m8r-xjiiil
Honorable
- Sep 28, 2012
- 5
- 0
- 10,510
[citation][nom]magicandy[/nom]Uh....you know there's a reason Windows' market share dwarfs OSX right? No one in the PC world even cares about OSX. No one "fears" it because the only people that use it are Apple people that are already okay with Apple's walled garden approach to OSes. Windows people don't fear it because we just don't use it. Windows 8 strikes fear into PC minds because the only other open platform will be Linux which lacks Direct X, the main API for games.[/citation]
So, based on that comment the whole PC industry exists only cause of games and DirectX ? Isn't that a little naive ?
So, based on that comment the whole PC industry exists only cause of games and DirectX ? Isn't that a little naive ?
m8r-xjiiil
Honorable
- Sep 28, 2012
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- 10,510
Thinking about gaming at larger picture i think it is safe to claim that there is now 3 distinct target groups:
1) Casual play - or as you know them "Bejeweled" clones, lot of apps on many devices. As cross platform tools mature we will see even more of such casual games, mainly as its the "safest" and "easiest" way to make best proffit per invested $, and you can see that money grabbers like EA are falling behind it as well. Now with Intel and others promoting HTML5 as "trye cross platform tool" they may even pull it off.
2) Online - all big games, and by big i mean games with lot of content, and by lot i mean more than 15 levels/areas - are moving into online space, eather as classic MMO or hybrid Matching (Diablo3), as Montly payment model is slowly phasing out we will see increase in Free-to-play model, and you can't deny it - there is plenty of vanity out there for companies to make a lot of money off selling pointless little things in the game.
3) PC/Console - PC is and will remain powerhouse for AAA+ titles, there are things that can't be done on other devices and it wil stay so for a yet long time. So those who worry about PC gaming ending, don't, there will be always handful of things that will stay on pc, but thats just the point, PC will not be sole focus for anywone anymore. And i think same will be with console, dedicated platforms alone are not enough to justify the cost and as developers spend more time on copy & paste the consumers will grow tired of same game bag of tricks with new textures - thus we will see a bit of decline in both spaces and some kind of "re-balancing" happening eventually.
I may be wrong, but i think this is what will happen. And all the fuss about directx/opengl and windows vs linux vs os-x - this eventually wont matter, single platform tools are too much of a headache, there has been a long need to fill the gap fro cross platform support and i think we are finally enetring the age where this could happen, if and when - well, we have to wait and see
1) Casual play - or as you know them "Bejeweled" clones, lot of apps on many devices. As cross platform tools mature we will see even more of such casual games, mainly as its the "safest" and "easiest" way to make best proffit per invested $, and you can see that money grabbers like EA are falling behind it as well. Now with Intel and others promoting HTML5 as "trye cross platform tool" they may even pull it off.
2) Online - all big games, and by big i mean games with lot of content, and by lot i mean more than 15 levels/areas - are moving into online space, eather as classic MMO or hybrid Matching (Diablo3), as Montly payment model is slowly phasing out we will see increase in Free-to-play model, and you can't deny it - there is plenty of vanity out there for companies to make a lot of money off selling pointless little things in the game.
3) PC/Console - PC is and will remain powerhouse for AAA+ titles, there are things that can't be done on other devices and it wil stay so for a yet long time. So those who worry about PC gaming ending, don't, there will be always handful of things that will stay on pc, but thats just the point, PC will not be sole focus for anywone anymore. And i think same will be with console, dedicated platforms alone are not enough to justify the cost and as developers spend more time on copy & paste the consumers will grow tired of same game bag of tricks with new textures - thus we will see a bit of decline in both spaces and some kind of "re-balancing" happening eventually.
I may be wrong, but i think this is what will happen. And all the fuss about directx/opengl and windows vs linux vs os-x - this eventually wont matter, single platform tools are too much of a headache, there has been a long need to fill the gap fro cross platform support and i think we are finally enetring the age where this could happen, if and when - well, we have to wait and see
apache_lives
Splendid
- Dec 10, 2002
- 6,873
- 1
- 26,160
[citation][nom]amuffin[/nom]Console+PC integration=BAD![/citation]
I'm actually all for getting RID of consoles. Here's the question, though. Have we reached that point to where it makes no difference to have the "latest and greatest" CPU and GPU? No. A LOT has to happen in game development prior to that point.
I'm actually all for getting RID of consoles. Here's the question, though. Have we reached that point to where it makes no difference to have the "latest and greatest" CPU and GPU? No. A LOT has to happen in game development prior to that point.
Nobody is talking about the real issue. It's not about the certifications, nor that Win 8 looks bad. It's all about the next 5 years.
MS is banking on their tablet working well for them. They know and understand that the average user of PCs play a few games, but ultimately use their machines for email, Youtube, and little else. With the smart tvs, you don't even need a PC for most of the daily activities that people perform. Since everyone also has a phone that can do everything a PC can do, save power gaming, the PC is becoming obsolete.
They want their Xbox to the gaming center in the house. They want everyone in the house to have a tablet, and they know that somewhere something will be controlling a tv. Perhaps it's Apple's, or perhaps it's Google's. Maybe MS will make one of those, too.
Basically, nobody at home requires a PC. It's a dead end. The business people still need their servers and workstations, that's not going to change anytime soon. MS makes a great deal of money off those. With free solutions for Office, email, and accounting prevalent everywhere, they can't even continue their most profitable line of software without a massive over-haul of their entire idea.
The only thing that remains to be seen is how the PC will truly be replaced. I don't think the Ipad and Android tablets are the end-game on that. I haven't seen a Win 8 tablet yet, but I don't have high expectations there either.
Maybe it's going to be something akin to Google Glass.
MS is banking on their tablet working well for them. They know and understand that the average user of PCs play a few games, but ultimately use their machines for email, Youtube, and little else. With the smart tvs, you don't even need a PC for most of the daily activities that people perform. Since everyone also has a phone that can do everything a PC can do, save power gaming, the PC is becoming obsolete.
They want their Xbox to the gaming center in the house. They want everyone in the house to have a tablet, and they know that somewhere something will be controlling a tv. Perhaps it's Apple's, or perhaps it's Google's. Maybe MS will make one of those, too.
Basically, nobody at home requires a PC. It's a dead end. The business people still need their servers and workstations, that's not going to change anytime soon. MS makes a great deal of money off those. With free solutions for Office, email, and accounting prevalent everywhere, they can't even continue their most profitable line of software without a massive over-haul of their entire idea.
The only thing that remains to be seen is how the PC will truly be replaced. I don't think the Ipad and Android tablets are the end-game on that. I haven't seen a Win 8 tablet yet, but I don't have high expectations there either.
Maybe it's going to be something akin to Google Glass.
[citation][nom]dsfjn23[/nom]@bloobthats simple, only idiot/retards/uninformed use MACs, and a few developers that require specific software that is only available on mac.windows is loved by the tech industry because it is open & versatile, and you can do alot more with it than a closed system like mac osx. yes we get viruses because of openness, but i prefer the virus risk over a closed system, where i have to pay ridiculous fees for shitty apps.[/citation]
Macs aren't closed, you can install software to them from any source. There is nothing you can't do on a Mac ( software wise ) that you can on a PC afaik( of course not all software is written for OSX, but it is not a limitation of the OS ). Windows becoming a closed OS is not a valid argument against Win 8. If Windows does close off in the future, you can always ditch it then. This is all seems like a childish MS-hate to me.
Macs aren't closed, you can install software to them from any source. There is nothing you can't do on a Mac ( software wise ) that you can on a PC afaik( of course not all software is written for OSX, but it is not a limitation of the OS ). Windows becoming a closed OS is not a valid argument against Win 8. If Windows does close off in the future, you can always ditch it then. This is all seems like a childish MS-hate to me.
Groveborn, I still want a pc. Gamers still want pc. Then pc isn't going anywhere. Yes home pc is down because of phones and tablets. There isn't any phone that has directx 11. So the current phones can't play all of the these pc games with all the graphics setting turned up. MS is making a huge mistake with windows 8 for the pc especially if the keep the system closed, that is what made MS all of the their money the last 30 years. Bill needs to come back to MS and run the company again.
dominick1233
Distinguished
- May 29, 2010
- 54
- 0
- 18,630
[citation][nom]m8r-xjiiil[/nom]So, based on that comment the whole PC industry exists only cause of games and DirectX ? Isn't that a little naive ?[/citation]
microsoft a while back when open gl was getting more and more support, ran better, and had less problems than direct x, launched a fud, and worked with everyone on making direct x exclusive to most games.
now what was the indirect things that happened due to that?
opengl is multiplatform, meaning that if you want games, must have microsoft
many kids played games, and at the time, the best of the best was on the pc
because people went i need it for work, and home use, my kid will want to play games, so i have to get microsoft
because of that, the install base grew, and what do businesses use?
answer, what people are use to unless you need a special application that requires otherwise
and due to people using windows, they get windows because they know windows.
and when people get frustrated with windows, and most of these people are the power users, not the average consumer, they either get off windows, because they dont need it anymore, or they grudgingly use it because they want to play games.
if we had most if not all games running on linux naively without a hassle. most gamers would move over to it, because we do not need windows at that point.
because they move over to linux for personal use, buisnesses would start looking into linux because thats what people use
software would start looking at it because thats what people use
the more software, the less people will be willing to pay a 100-400$ premium for microsoft
and soon, like within 10 years, you would see most systems are linux, with the exception of businesses that require windows or macs for legacy hardware, or in macs case, because thats their personal choice (a dumb one but their right to do so)
microsoft a while back when open gl was getting more and more support, ran better, and had less problems than direct x, launched a fud, and worked with everyone on making direct x exclusive to most games.
now what was the indirect things that happened due to that?
opengl is multiplatform, meaning that if you want games, must have microsoft
many kids played games, and at the time, the best of the best was on the pc
because people went i need it for work, and home use, my kid will want to play games, so i have to get microsoft
because of that, the install base grew, and what do businesses use?
answer, what people are use to unless you need a special application that requires otherwise
and due to people using windows, they get windows because they know windows.
and when people get frustrated with windows, and most of these people are the power users, not the average consumer, they either get off windows, because they dont need it anymore, or they grudgingly use it because they want to play games.
if we had most if not all games running on linux naively without a hassle. most gamers would move over to it, because we do not need windows at that point.
because they move over to linux for personal use, buisnesses would start looking into linux because thats what people use
software would start looking at it because thats what people use
the more software, the less people will be willing to pay a 100-400$ premium for microsoft
and soon, like within 10 years, you would see most systems are linux, with the exception of businesses that require windows or macs for legacy hardware, or in macs case, because thats their personal choice (a dumb one but their right to do so)
CaedenV
Splendid
- Jun 14, 2011
- 4,829
- 3
- 23,465
lets keep in mind that notch is also against steam for the exact same reasons that he is against win8. He is not against MS, nor against Valve, he just wants to sell his games on his own terms, and not be forced into a contract where he is forced to do things in the way that the distributor wants him to instead of the way he wants to.
Old_Fogie_Late_Bloomer
Guest
- Sep 21, 2010
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- 18,790
But when I point out what Microsoft is trying to do, I'm trolling. :-/ I guess if you don't believe major players in the industry, you won't believe me.
CaedenV
Splendid
- Jun 14, 2011
- 4,829
- 3
- 23,465
@alidan
I almost agree with you...
The success of Windows is not some 'grand conspiracy' to kill off linux or any other platform (in fact linux and OSX would both be gone right now if it was not for support from MS... which is a whole other weird story).
Rather; the success of MS (and perhaps the only real success MS has ever had) has been the support they give to developers. What attracted developers to the Windows platform at first was the amazing documentation and support of C languages in the Windows environment. There was enough documentation, and the OS was stable and standardized enough in order to have predictable results (unlike the horde of Linux distros), and yet open enough to have access to just about every aspect of the OS (unlike OSX which is very picky about what a programmer has access to, especially back in the OS6-9 days). Programmers moved over to Windows, so then when MS standardized game code with the push of DX8&9 the programmers naturally migrated over to that because it worked in the environment that they knew.
For the end users, all of the software (good and bad) was all on the PC side, so there was really very little choice for business users for a long time. When Linux really started to shine a bit they had an uphill battle; Everyone was accustomed to the look and feel of Windows, everyone had thousands of $$ of software invested in the Windows environment, and Windows is a standardized and well supported environment while Linux was often half a$$ed, and supported distros were not the best ones available. Linux is much better now as a core kernel which is good, but even many linux distros are beginning to promote the 'walled garden' approach to getting and installing software. The walls are short, and do not require much of the distributor or the programmers, but still; it is a direction that every platform is moving towards in an effort to have a central place to have 'virus free' software, instead of going out to the web, finding a tool, and just hoping that you are not going to kill your system in the process.
I almost agree with you...
The success of Windows is not some 'grand conspiracy' to kill off linux or any other platform (in fact linux and OSX would both be gone right now if it was not for support from MS... which is a whole other weird story).
Rather; the success of MS (and perhaps the only real success MS has ever had) has been the support they give to developers. What attracted developers to the Windows platform at first was the amazing documentation and support of C languages in the Windows environment. There was enough documentation, and the OS was stable and standardized enough in order to have predictable results (unlike the horde of Linux distros), and yet open enough to have access to just about every aspect of the OS (unlike OSX which is very picky about what a programmer has access to, especially back in the OS6-9 days). Programmers moved over to Windows, so then when MS standardized game code with the push of DX8&9 the programmers naturally migrated over to that because it worked in the environment that they knew.
For the end users, all of the software (good and bad) was all on the PC side, so there was really very little choice for business users for a long time. When Linux really started to shine a bit they had an uphill battle; Everyone was accustomed to the look and feel of Windows, everyone had thousands of $$ of software invested in the Windows environment, and Windows is a standardized and well supported environment while Linux was often half a$$ed, and supported distros were not the best ones available. Linux is much better now as a core kernel which is good, but even many linux distros are beginning to promote the 'walled garden' approach to getting and installing software. The walls are short, and do not require much of the distributor or the programmers, but still; it is a direction that every platform is moving towards in an effort to have a central place to have 'virus free' software, instead of going out to the web, finding a tool, and just hoping that you are not going to kill your system in the process.
maddogfargo
Splendid
- Nov 28, 2006
- 3,344
- 8
- 22,965
[citation][nom]kcorp2003[/nom]^ guys its not about metro UI or console integration. It's all about their new windows app market place. Microsoft's policies and charges for certifying became expensive on the store. Thus affecting indie developers. It's fear for business. cutting off the middlemen. Steam move to linux was a smart move but games being build on OpenGL isn't really that productive when compare to DirectX and windows isn't porting that to linux any time soon. Razer, Nvidia, AMD or who isn't in the distribution service isn't complaining. (yet) But i hope Microsoft works something out.[/citation]
True. But the main reason that it is less productive is because the majority of devs have bought into the Windows paltform, which is DirectX centric. With so many people saying 'no' to Win8 I see Microsoft needing to adjust or risk losing their monopoly as the mainstream application and game development paltform for PCs.
True. But the main reason that it is less productive is because the majority of devs have bought into the Windows paltform, which is DirectX centric. With so many people saying 'no' to Win8 I see Microsoft needing to adjust or risk losing their monopoly as the mainstream application and game development paltform for PCs.
maddogfargo
Splendid
- Nov 28, 2006
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bryonhowley
Splendid
- Oct 24, 2011
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[citation][nom]m8r-xjiiil[/nom]been using windows 8 since first CTP, never gonna go back to old thing, can't understand ppl crying blody murder, steam works, everithing works, faster, leaner, better, dont even miss the start menu, metro felt wierd at first but now it makes sence and i use it, even productivity helps a bit though i dont like limiting metro to 1 screen, in my 3 screen setup i could benefit from metro snap-split views on at least 2 side monitors.[/citation]
I have also been running Windows 8 for quite some time now and will not be going back to Windows 7. If a given game or app does not get certification for Windows 8 or does not work correctly it is a game or app I will not buy or play period. Minecraft is not a game I would every buy anyway so not having it on Windows 8 is no big deal and the only one that will loose is the dev.
As far as Linux and Steam goes even when Valve gets it out on Linux it will still be up to the game dev's to port there games to Linux and OpenGL and I still do not see a lot of them short of Valve doing it. Simple fact is if there is not the numbers to back it up they are not going to spend the money and time to port them. Dev's see people running Linux as a group that do not want to pay for software in the first place so why spend money and time porting the game to a platform that the majority of users will not pay for the said game! While some of them will run under Wine not all of them do or run without problems.
Short of Valve you will have to pay again for the games you want to play under Steam Linux and I do not see most users willing to do that.
As for all the hate for Windows 8 goes I just do not understand what the real problem is. Microsoft has a OS that boots faster shutsdown faster, apps and games start faster, play better with more fps so what is the problem? Personally all support for the old OS should stop as soon as the new one is out. That means the activation servers go off line and all support stops. The only reason that Valve does not like Windows 8 is they see it as a threat to there Steam platform and that is just stupid to the extream. Simply put Windows 8 runs everything better than Windows 7 did or I would not use it. On top of that any app or game I want to run is faster to find with fewer mouse clicks and starts faster than they ever did on Windows 7.
Windows 8 is so hard to get used to that it took my 80 year old grandmother a whole 30 minutes to get used to it and told me she did not want to go back to Windows 7! Same with my 6 year old niece with in an hour she had found her games and was playing them like a pro! If it were up to me Windows 7 would stop working the day Windows 8 goes retail with no more support or updates.
I have also been running Windows 8 for quite some time now and will not be going back to Windows 7. If a given game or app does not get certification for Windows 8 or does not work correctly it is a game or app I will not buy or play period. Minecraft is not a game I would every buy anyway so not having it on Windows 8 is no big deal and the only one that will loose is the dev.
As far as Linux and Steam goes even when Valve gets it out on Linux it will still be up to the game dev's to port there games to Linux and OpenGL and I still do not see a lot of them short of Valve doing it. Simple fact is if there is not the numbers to back it up they are not going to spend the money and time to port them. Dev's see people running Linux as a group that do not want to pay for software in the first place so why spend money and time porting the game to a platform that the majority of users will not pay for the said game! While some of them will run under Wine not all of them do or run without problems.
Short of Valve you will have to pay again for the games you want to play under Steam Linux and I do not see most users willing to do that.
As for all the hate for Windows 8 goes I just do not understand what the real problem is. Microsoft has a OS that boots faster shutsdown faster, apps and games start faster, play better with more fps so what is the problem? Personally all support for the old OS should stop as soon as the new one is out. That means the activation servers go off line and all support stops. The only reason that Valve does not like Windows 8 is they see it as a threat to there Steam platform and that is just stupid to the extream. Simply put Windows 8 runs everything better than Windows 7 did or I would not use it. On top of that any app or game I want to run is faster to find with fewer mouse clicks and starts faster than they ever did on Windows 7.
Windows 8 is so hard to get used to that it took my 80 year old grandmother a whole 30 minutes to get used to it and told me she did not want to go back to Windows 7! Same with my 6 year old niece with in an hour she had found her games and was playing them like a pro! If it were up to me Windows 7 would stop working the day Windows 8 goes retail with no more support or updates.
daglesj
Distinguished
- Jul 14, 2007
- 485
- 21
- 18,785
How to configure Windows 8 for whiners -
Install Windows 8, delete as many of the Metro/Modern apps as you please.
Open up the Default Applications window and swap all the Metro/Modern default apps to Desktop ones.
Then go to Desktop and spend the rest of the day there as though you were using Windows 7.
It's really not that hard. MS has woken up to the fact its a waste of time rolling out Enterprise friendly operating systems when they only adopt one in three of them.
Windows 8 is a domestic OS release largely to help train a more touch friendly user base at home for when Business moves over to Windows 10 (whatever).
Whether you like 8 or not, it's a brave move from MS and I'm disappointed that more just disregard it in a herd-outrage mass frenzy. Quite immature really.
Install Windows 8, delete as many of the Metro/Modern apps as you please.
Open up the Default Applications window and swap all the Metro/Modern default apps to Desktop ones.
Then go to Desktop and spend the rest of the day there as though you were using Windows 7.
It's really not that hard. MS has woken up to the fact its a waste of time rolling out Enterprise friendly operating systems when they only adopt one in three of them.
Windows 8 is a domestic OS release largely to help train a more touch friendly user base at home for when Business moves over to Windows 10 (whatever).
Whether you like 8 or not, it's a brave move from MS and I'm disappointed that more just disregard it in a herd-outrage mass frenzy. Quite immature really.
Ok, I'm sorry but if I wanted to play a crappy blocky game I would power up my old Sega or NES. Maybe atari? Who cares. All I know is the new Windows 8 pad coming out comes with a keyboard AND a touchpad. That right there is a major selling point for me as I work in IT and MUST have a mouse. The touch screen crap is good for playing but getting down to business??? heck no. Also, what makes everyone think that everything should be GPL, free and open source? people still have to make money in this world and last I checked my gaming rig is Windows and it will continue to be Windows. The Metro interface was made for touch screens. You don't like it? convert it to normal windows and stop whining!
luciferano
Honorable
- Sep 24, 2012
- 1,513
- 0
- 11,810
[citation][nom]magicandy[/nom]Uh....you know there's a reason Windows' market share dwarfs OSX right? No one in the PC world even cares about OSX. No one "fears" it because the only people that use it are Apple people that are already okay with Apple's walled garden approach to OSes. Windows people don't fear it because we just don't use it. Windows 8 strikes fear into PC minds because the only other open platform will be Linux which lacks Direct X, the main API for games.[/citation]
That's not necessarily true. I don't know if it's true for the entire DX11 set, but Linux does support at la=east most of it already and supports all of the DX9 set if you get the right drvers and such. What Linux doesn't have is MS-sanctioned DX support and a huge user base on the desktop and laptop platforms such as what Windows has and beyond that, Linux has full OpenGL support and OpenGL, although probably a little more difficult to work with, has support for every feature that DDirect 3D has and there are counterparts to the rest of the DirectX set (OpenCL for Direct Compute, ALSA/OSS and others for the audio, etc.).
That's not necessarily true. I don't know if it's true for the entire DX11 set, but Linux does support at la=east most of it already and supports all of the DX9 set if you get the right drvers and such. What Linux doesn't have is MS-sanctioned DX support and a huge user base on the desktop and laptop platforms such as what Windows has and beyond that, Linux has full OpenGL support and OpenGL, although probably a little more difficult to work with, has support for every feature that DDirect 3D has and there are counterparts to the rest of the DirectX set (OpenCL for Direct Compute, ALSA/OSS and others for the audio, etc.).
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