nV to drop the FX5900XT to save the FX5700 series

[phial]

I don't get you kinney. You say the only current nV product worth buying is the 5900XT, yet, they have been nothing but superior?

yea that kinda threw me for a loop too , but whatever haha ;D




i agree that most people here , aside from teh occasional new person are quite objective.. and if we seem bias'd....:

<b>its because one video card is better than the other duhh </b>

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[kinney]

true also. were you here in 2002? it was teh opposite back then. mirror image, except with a brackish light.. i remember posting about drivres and getting sh1t like "you like ati you fvvckig idiot??" hence why i stopped posting from time to time

I was here in 2002, been here since 2001. But didnt post in much frequency.
I historically have posted much more on Anandtech. Their opinions usually mesh much more with mine and its more fun scrapping with you guys.

funny Kinney, didnt you start flame wars purposefully for months, about a year ago? hahaahahaahahhah man that was annoying trying to get people to ignore your threads but you seem to know whats going on now, kudos

Yeah, I was in denial about ATIs DX9 advantage. That is NOT me admitting to their supremacy as that is quite obviously not the case.
NVs shaders are actually technically superior, but it does not matter in DX9 games as they not only lack brute force, but their added DX9+ features lack support.
But as I learned more about the situation on CG and NV not entering MS DX9 talks until late in the game I understood a bit more WHY NV was subpar in DX9 performance.

Oh well, I've had my experience with recent ATI cards and been turned off.. and I'm making it through right now with a NV card until the NV40 puts a bit more Green back in peoples systems.

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[Willamette_sucks]

NV's shaders technically superior to ATI's?! Where's Davepermen when you need him, lol.



























omg.

Me: are you saying I can't provide?
Me: cause I know I can provide.
Me: oh and I can provide money too😉
Rachel: why do we need money when we can just stay in our room and have sex all day?

 

[kinney]

'Ello WS. I'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

Mind telling me what features I'm missing out on?

Well, the ones relevant to me I will state.. there might be more I have not discovered.

1. Slick as snot to allow custom resolutions with custom refreshrates.. which is very useful for specific applications such as arcade emulation with MAME. This is very very cool and useful.
With ATI you have to go into the registry and do all kinds of dinking around to get them functioning properly, I wont go into the details but it sucks.

2. I no longer have to use refresh force with NV! When you use ATIs refresh rate setting in their drivers, it will change the rate to 85hz or whatever, but if you task out of the game, on reentry it snaps back to 60hz!
At least in the opengl games that I task out of frequently.
Refresh force does not allow games such as Halo to load at all when its settings are applied.. its stupid that halo doesnt allow for forced rates- this is true.
While NVs method works with even games like Halo, properly.

3. Nvidia's Windows 2D acceleration is much better than ATIs. You can tell just by dragging a window around fast and watching for lag. This isnt a huge issue but it is very noticable over time, even on webpages.
I can tell a distinct difference between even a GF2MX and my previous 9800 Pros.

4. You can rotate your LCD or whatever screen by 90degrees, ATI still doesnt have this but its very useful. -edit they recently DID add this in the Cat 4.2 release, but sheesh! Took long enough, and another illustration of a day late and dollar short ATI support.

5. Besides all that, overall poorer sofware support, such as- the CAT3.8s killing monitors from the VPU recover feature (never proven, but theres always some fact behind all rumor), and the incompatibilities with Half Life using AA/AF..
Also it would be worth mentioning that the Cat 3.8s broke COD for ATI while it worked fine on the 3.7s.

6. Best, most dependable long term driver support back to the TNT1 with the unified NVs.

7. Gaming profiles can actually be set to auto launch and unload with any EXE unlike ATI's manual load method.

8. "Play on my tv" option available for windows video files. Automatically sends a video file to be played on your tv.

9. Dual monitor support is much better than ATI due to no surroundgaming (vertical and horizontal span support), like Matrox and NV support.
Other than that they have much better overall dual monitor support, that I wont get into.
source: <A HREF="http://www20.tomshardware.com/graphic/20040216/index.html" target="_new">THG</A>

Check out the Hard OCP review of Far Cry and check out the image quality. Driver advantages my ass.

Those IQ issues have been fixed with the <A HREF="http://www.nvidia.com/object/winxp_2k_56.72" target="_new">56.72 release</A>.

ATI has a DX9 spec advantage, not a driver advantage.
Isnt that a fair agreement?

Seriously, I hope I was informative.

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[kinney]

NV's shaders technically superior to ATI's?! Where's Davepermen when you need him, lol.

If I'm not mistaken, NV can execute more instructions as well as other things.
I said nothing about performing better in strict DX9 apps.

NV30 vs. R300 VS Specs
Max VS instructions
ATI 1024
NV 65536
Temporary Registers
ATI 12
NV 16
Max Loops
ATI 4
NV 256
Conditional Write Masks
ATI No
NV Yes
Call and Return
ATI No
NV Yes
Dynamic Flow Control
ATI No
NV Yes

NV30 vs. R300 PS Specs
Max Texture Instructions
ATI 32
NV 1024
Max Color Instructions
ATI 54
NV 1024
Max Temp Storage
ATI 12
NV 64
Instruction Predicates
ATI No
NV Yes
Unlimited Dependent Textures
ATI No
NV Yes
Swizzling
ATI No
NV Yes
Advanced Instructions
ATI No
NV Yes
Conditional Write Masks
ATI No
NV Yes
Max Precision
ATI 96
NV 128
64bit color
ATI No
NV Yes
128bit color
ATI No
NV Yes

Now, this has turned out to be meaningless in gaming but I feel it certainly gives NV rights to being "technically superior".
Everyone knows that NV30+ stuff was "DX9+".
Or more specifically, had things added that John Carmack was requesting IIRC.

I'm no expert on VS/PS but numbers dont lie.

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[phial]

LOL yes really eh?


Davepermen could give you a 4 page write up as to why nvidia's shaders are not superior...and they arent Kinney..

nvidia cant just go and make thier own rules. they tried, and got burned by it..


<A HREF="http://www.3dcenter.de/artikel/r9800xt_vs_gffx5950u/index5.php" target="_new">i took the time to dig this up for you Kinney</A>


^^

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[phial]

heh I posted without reading your post comparing things nvidia could do , compared to what ATI couldnt do


click that link i gave you, note the Shader 17 test... it goes both ways dude

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phial on 04/06/04 09:50 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[kinney]

what does that matter to us tho? does it affect how we game? i dont see how it benifits us

phial... I explictly stated more than once that this stuff does NOT affect gaming as it turned out.
/sigh

He asked me why I think that technically why NVs VS/PS are superior.

I tried to be very adamant that it didnt influence, nor reflect real world gaming performance. :frown:

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[phial]

hey sorry




im kinda tipsy right now so forgive me.. yo we are just debating , chill chill its all good bro

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[phial]

/me passes Kinney a smoke and a glass of wine



because thats what im having right now 😀

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[phial]

hmmm

ok now i see what you mean



we do kinda act like "fanboys" at times even tho i despise that term

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[kinney]

Ah, thank you.

I'm just a bit sensitive sometimes.
😱

I dont mind partaking in a bit of wine and a smokey treat!

/me wishes it was a Cuban!

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[HardWareBoss]

Boo Hoo now what am I to do? Big deal nvidia has to many clone cards.

 

[kinney]

Theres a little bit of fanboy in each of us, is there not? :tongue:

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[phial]

well yea, we all have our preferences... thast what a "fan" is


honesty i DO prefer ATI. for some reason that company appeals to me. they *seem* more honest to me as a company, as compared to nVidia. but do i have any idea how that company operates internally? no. have i seen the inside of one of their buildings? no. have i worked htere and hence discovered the private company philosphy? no. so i like ATi "just because" and all my ideas are merely my best speculations that i can come up with

of course AIT's honesty could be disputed VERY easily .. .especially sinse that document has been leaked of ATi's site recently showing how they act towards the consumer/competitor


its the way people are. humans are not objective beings.. we LIKE to have teams to cheer for, we like to feel like part of the team ,parto fo the group...hence why we form sides like ATI vs nVidia

-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[coolsquirtle]

dude.... start a flame thread where u dont type that much? i need some post counts here 😀😀😀

sigh where's Daveperman.... he was the wise one 😀

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
never tried to go crazy when it comes to o/cing.
THGC's resident Asian and Graphics Forum's resident nVboy 😀

 

[cleeve]

Just interjecting here for $hit's sake:

I do prefer Ati for the most part. But I have to admit Nvidia's OpenGL drivers are still better from what I;'ve seen, and I'd KILL to have game-specific imkage quality profiles like the new forceware has.

Nvidia isn't my favorite, but I admire some of their accomplishments. And the 5900XT is certainly one of them.

________________
<b>Radeon <font color=red>9500 PRO</b></font color=red> <i>(hardmodded 9500, o/c 322/322)</i>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>~2600+</b></font color=red> <i>(o/c 2400+ w/143Mhz fsb)</i>
<b>3dMark03: <font color=red>4,055</b></font color=red>

 

[coolsquirtle]

LONG LIVE nVIDIA!

their OpenGL can't be beat... i hope it stays this way 😛

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
never tried to go crazy when it comes to o/cing.
THGC's resident Asian and Graphics Forum's resident nVboy 😀

 

[kinney]

but do i have any idea how that company operates internally? no. have i seen the inside of one of their buildings? no. have i worked htere and hence discovered the private company philosphy? no. so i like ATi "just because" and all my ideas are merely my best speculations that i can come up with

This is sort of off-topic.. but I do know a bit about how Nvidia operates internally, their philosophy ect.

I've read multiple accounts of people who have visited and live near NV headquarters that say they are a "grade A company", with a "charged atmosphere", that "operates like a fine tuned machine".
From what I've read they are an shining example of what companies -should- be.
I think the innovation, competition and fire they brought to this market is proof enough of this.

They've made some blunders, but my philosphy is "hey you make big decisions you make big mistakes", if you dont do anything and if your not the leader its hard to make mistakes.
And no one becomes the leader sucking hine tit for their entire existence.
OR unless they buy a company with talent! *cough*ArtX*cough*

I suppose nothing they've done has let me down enough to abandon them as many here have apparantly done so.
They've been good to me, even when I was relatively uneducated about their product.
While ATI on the other hand, I bought and was uneducated I got extremely burnt ie. my Rage 128 and my TV Wonder <- JUNK. And did relatively OK with my Radeon 9800s.
But wasnt impressed enough to jump fence. I felt like I'd bought into speed without considering all the rough edges that came with it.
I'm not the type, like most, to jump fence merely because I dropped some dough and its "what I use".. therefore inherently awesome.

But every company has bad products, and with education you can avoid many of those.
Which is something I mentioned before.
Whether I was educated or not, I've came to appreciate NV and their way of doing things than ATIs methods.

I will admit, I have a hard time understanding people that see it the exact opposite.
The "IQ" charade to me is ridiculous and frankly doesnt bother me one-iota.

Its interesting having a civil conversation with you...
is something wrong?
:lol:

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[coolsquirtle]

civil kinney?

that's a oxymoron

RIP Block Heater....HELLO P4~~~~~
120% nVidia Fanboy
never tried to go crazy when it comes to o/cing.
THGC's resident Asian and Graphics Forum's resident nVboy 😀

 

[kinney]

ROFL

About as true a statement as a "civil war".

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Profiles can be set with third party tools like Rage3Dtweak, and <A HREF="http://atitool.ocfaq.com/" target="_new">ATOOL</A>, and <A HREF="http://www.3dcenter.de/atuner/index_e.php" target="_new">a-tuner</A>.
Would be nice to have it integrated into the Cats, but don't worry, Terry Makedon (Catalyst Maker) said it was coming. So I don't expect that to be a drawback too long.

The thing about the FX5900XT, it's no longer a deal when you can get and R9800 for cheaper on NewEgg.

I won't even bother with the rest of the thread except to point out the convenient choice of comparison, NV30 to R300 (not R350), and despite that list of DX9+ features, it still lags in DX9 games.

I'll worry more about OpenGL when D]|[ gets here. 'Til then I'm fine with their perfroamnce.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK

 

[phial]

*cough*ArtX*cough*

touche ;P

But every company has bad products, and with education you can avoid many of those.
Which is something I mentioned before.
Whether I was educated or not, I've came to appreciate NV and their way of doing things than ATIs methods.

ive been following the graphics card industry sinse the Rage128 and TNT and wahtnot... and when i look back at previous products i see that ATi has always been ahead of its time in terms of its hardware..
just they have always been plagued by horrendous drivers, and a disorganized/n00bish company


look at the original Radeon.

no, it didnt have the brute strength of the GF2Ultra.. but it came with features that were really ahead of its time, like cube mapping, many forms of bump mapping, a new memory compression, and archaic pixel shaders .. all things that the GF2 could not do .. so backthen i was kind of impressed

then the 8500 came along. it was a superior design compared to the GF3 , but again , it was plagued by drivers and ATI was still not as focusd as they are now, or as much as nVidia was back then

the 8500 has PS1.4 which is a great improvement over PS1.1, had dual vertex shaders which gave it a significant advantage in geometry processing, and it had VERY useable Ansiotropic Filtering.. i could play most games with AF ,and take barely a hit in fillrage/performance. so here ATI was with a superior card but still people failed to see it because of nvidias superior drivers and marekting



these probably contributed to the creation of the R300 just as much as the aquisition of ArtX.. the aquisition seemed to have given them focus more than anything else, and i doubt ArtX is as responsible for ATI's sucess as people think because as you can see, they were looking towards the future long before they merged


as for nVidia.. well honestly I havent read about nvida that much to know about thier history.




you and me Kinney are the polar opposites in this

The "IQ" charade to me is ridiculous and frankly doesnt bother me one-iota.

well it shoudl really , because really if IQ doesnt matter then why not just guy a GF3TI500 and play all games at 800x600? IQ matters alot, and personally it drives me NUTS purchasing a new game because its supposed to have amazing graphics, and then not being able to see these new graphics because it all gets blurred into BI-LINEAR FILTERING muddyness.. because the hardware i have doesnt live up to its claims

Its interesting having a civil conversation with you...
is something wrong?

no not really, its just you arent creating flame-bait threads anymore so theres no need to kick your ass


-------
<A HREF="http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/you.html" target="_new">please dont click here! </A>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Well supposedly it's guys from 3Dfx who FIXED the NV/FX shaders for the NV40 line. Without them you'd simply have a faster NV3X, not also more efficient/effective.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red> GA to SK

 

[kinney]

touche ;P

Ouch. You edited out the funny part

____________________________
<b>RESIDENT FORUM WARRIOR
<font color=purple>I just neutered the cat.
Now he's a liberal.</font color=purple></b>