Nvidia GeForce GTX 650 And 660 Review: Kepler At $110 And $230

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[citation][nom]Tomfreak[/nom]according to the bench, each game have 2 presets, the similar priced 7770/7750 is missing on the second higher bench on most games. Would be love the 6870 being replace with 7770/7750 on the second game bench.[/citation]

The price difference is too large to compare the 7770/7750 with the 7850/660. The only reason I included the 650 in the high detail chart was to give a reference point for the difference in ability between the 660 and 650.

It'd be nice to include every possible combination, but we don't have infinite time, and I like to focus the charts on what makes sense. That means similar price points.
 


As a hardware reviewer I test AMD, Intel, and Nvidia products on a daily basis. They all have quirks: I've gotten hardware that fails with processors from all 3.

Hardware fails at times, that's a fact of life. In the hundreds of products that have gone through my hands, I haven't noticed one manufacturers stuff work or be more reliable significantly more than others.

As for drivers, they all have quirks. If you think only one manufacturer has driver problems you're living in a bubble.
 
I am not saying that any drivers or chips are perfect or flawed. I do not test hardware for a living and I can not say that I have reviewed hundred of different chips. All I said is that in my limited experience I have had more problems and failures with AMD than I have with Nvidia and Intel. So I stick with what has worked well for me in the past. I have been building PC's since 1980. When were you even born?

Cleeve: I am surprised that an employee of Tom's would resort to insults.
Shame on you. I hate forum trolls, You are bad and you should feel bad.
 


Good stuff, do as you like. However, things change over time, so if you've pre-decided that driver reliability is a constant over decades, I don't know if that strategy is a good one.



How does my date of birth affect performance and reliability, exactly? Does my adult son somehow validate my experience as a hardware reviewer? If I was 25 and had been testing hardware for the past 10 years is the experience invalid?



Not sure what you're referring to as an insult, chief. Unless you consider a difference of opinion as an insult.

Still not feeling bad. Ah well, you'll have to live with it I guess... :)
 
This one time, I played a bad Video game. Because that game was run by a video card, I no longer use video cards. Because that video card was in a computer, I no longer use computers. Because that computer was powered by electricity, I no longer use electricity.

This is why I also dislike AMD graphics cards. Me and Joe are the same.
 
[citation][nom]RealiBrad[/nom]This one time, I played a bad Video game. Because that game was run by a video card, I no longer use video cards. Because that video card was in a computer, I no longer use computers. Because that computer was powered by electricity, I no longer use electricity. This is why I also dislike AMD graphics cards. Me and Joe are the same.[/citation]

I actually laughed out loud at this one.

Well played, sir. You have earned a thumbs up from this humble fan.
 
[citation][nom]JoeMomma[/nom]I am not saying that any drivers or chips are perfect or flawed. I do not test hardware for a living and I can not say that I have reviewed hundred of different chips. All I said is that in my limited experience I have had more problems and failures with AMD than I have with Nvidia and Intel. So I stick with what has worked well for me in the past. I have been building PC's since 1980. When were you even born?Cleeve: I am surprised that an employee of Tom's would resort to insults.Shame on you. I hate forum trolls, You are bad and you should feel bad.[/citation]

Telling you that if you think that Nvidia and others are free of driver problems, you're living in a bubble, is not an insult. I'd go as far as saying that it is simply adding emphasis to an attempt to teach you. That AMD's current drivers are at the least more or less on-par with Nvidia's current drivers and you're complaining about AMD's past as if it is still accurate is a clear sign of a lesson being needed if you want to be accurate about what you're saying. FYI, I say this without any intent at all of offending you.
 
Looks to me like the GTX650 does actually compete with the HD7750 in games, or will once prices settle; there's the issue of that unnecessary PCIe power connection, but board partners will undoubtedly fix that. The choice between those two cards appears to depend on the game, meaning the card itself is not crippled or somehow pointless, unlike everything else I've been seeing from nVidia lately.
Of course I did say in games; nVidia's compute performance remains an unexplained disaster, although there are many who won't care.
 
So the 660 is the mid-range's 670.

BTW: Anti-aliasing is NOT dependent on the GPU power? I always thought it was, GPU utilization always increased...or does it matter if it's SSAA or MSAA?

Also, the 660 seems to post better min. frame rates than the 660 Ti at times. You think that's because of higher clock rates?

And how do ROPs affect performance? More=better i guess? Or only for the same generation?
 
I always find it funny how people say they are a fan of this or that in the computer world. With how quickly things change, being a fan does nothing.

Example: When AMD came out with their cpu that was better than the current Intel cpu's at the time, fans of Intel still bought Intel even though there was no reason to. At the time, AMD beat Intel in most every way. Then, Intel came back and beat the hell out of AMDs chips.


In the tech world, you can only be a fan for a generation or so, because next round everything changes. A company that had horrible quality and or performance might dominate next time. Things change too quickly to stick with a brand forever.

People need to be a fan of quality, performance and innovation in probably that order.
 
[citation][nom]ojas[/nom]So the 660 is the mid-range's 670.BTW: Anti-aliasing is NOT dependent on the GPU power? I always thought it was, GPU utilization always increased...or does it matter if it's SSAA or MSAA?Also, the 660 seems to post better min. frame rates than the 660 Ti at times. You think that's because of higher clock rates?And how do ROPs affect performance? More=better i guess? Or only for the same generation?[/citation]

Yes, I'd say that the 660 is to the 660 Ti as 670 is to the 680. The better minimums are probably caused by the GPU clock frequency being higher. The frequency controls more than just the frequency that the cores are running at and some of the other hardware, such as ROPs, running a little faster can help something like that when the amount of ROPs and the memory bandwidth are too low.

ROPs and memory bandwidth are generally the greatest bottle-necks on heavy levels of AA. What kind of AA can change the performance impact that it has, but the GPU's cores and such don't really impact AA much because they aren't what performs AA, that's done by the ROPs.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7495049_raster-operation-processor.html

The GTX 660 Ti and 660 have fewer ROPs than the Radeon 7800 and 7900 cards do. The ROPs (except on the Tahiti GPU from the Radeon 7900 cards) are literally a part of the memory controllers because they are what sends the finished frames out to the frame buffer. Having insufficient ROP performance and thus also insufficient memory bandwidth (fewer ROPs generally means a thinner memory connection which although not necessarily means lower memory bandwidth, but it often does) means that when you use AA, you have less hardware to run it on. Cutting down the ROPs and memory controllers from the GPU like Nvidia did is similar to what you'd get if you take a Phenom II x4 CPU and go down to an Athlon II x3. about 33% less processing power at the same frequency and less memory/cache performance from the lack of L3 cache to feed the weaker core processing power is like a double-whammy on performance. That's a big part of why the 660 Ti and the 660 struggle far more than even the GTX 670/680 with AA.
 
Is this enough to run a GTX 650?

I have a 400w PSU Dual Rail. (3zone - some korean PSU)

+3.3v - 35a
+5v - 28a
+12v1 - 10a
+12v2 - 10a

I'm currently running an HD 6670 GDDR5. (AMD Athlon II X2 245 2.9ghz, 4GB DDR2 800)
Click to expand...

I think that it should be fine, assuming that the PSU isn't poor quality and/or old enough to have degraded too much. However, your CPU might be an issue too, depending on the games that you play. You might be better off saving up and getting a new system or also at least upgrading your CPU to a decent Phenom II x3 or x4. However, the Radeon 7750 is probably the better option except maybe unless you play games and at settings in which the GTX 650 excels at.
 
[citation][nom]JoeMomma[/nom]When were you even born? Cleeve: I am surprised that an employee of Tom's would resort to insults. Shame on you. I hate forum trolls, You are bad and you should feel bad.[/citation]

Your name is an insult itself, and yet you are accusing Cleeve of insults?
Age discrimination to boot? Grow up, troll.
 
[citation][nom]blazorthon[/nom]I think that it should be fine, assuming that the PSU isn't poor quality and/or old enough to have degraded too much. However, your CPU might be an issue too, depending on the games that you play. You might be better off saving up and getting a new system or also at least upgrading your CPU to a decent Phenom II x3 or x4. However, the Radeon 7750 is probably the better option except maybe unless you play games and at settings that the GTX 650 excels at.[/citation]

(sorry, i deleted my post because i've changed my mind 😛)

I'm choosing between upgrading CPU or GPU(Limited Budget).

I guess i will just go with the CPU... I found a Phenom II X4 965 and the price is $111 in usd, I think 6670 GDDR5 still a decent GPU and it trade blows with GT 640. I'm only playing at 1440x900. I'll just keep it.

The PSU i have is a korean surplus, i bought it for $10, I was going to buy a Brandnew/Quality one($40-50) back then, but one i only got $30, because i bought a cooler to replace my broken stock cooler.

By the way, I have another option, I got scooter here(Value is $300), i'm already seaching for someone to trade/swap with my scooter.. My target is an i5 2400/2500k with motherboard and ram or even a Phenom II X4+mobo+ram with a decent PSU. Then i will use my old system for Home CCTV.
 
about time they released some proper kepler competition in these price points. i dont think amd will drop prices this time as fast as they did with the 660ti release. 650 was underwhelming, but 660 looks looks quite good.
 
[citation][nom]Regor245[/nom](sorry, i deleted my post because i've changed my mind )I'm choosing between upgrading CPU or GPU(Limited Budget). I guess i will just go with the CPU... I found a Phenom II X4 965 and the price is $111 in usd, I think 6670 GDDR5 still a decent GPU and it trade blows with GT 640. I'm only playing at 1440x900. I'll just keep it.The PSU i have is a korean surplus, i bought it for $10, I was going to buy a Brandnew/Quality one($40-50) back then, but one i only got $30, because i bought a cooler to replace my broken stock cooler.By the way, I have another option, I got scooter here(Value is $300), i'm already seaching for someone to trade/swap with my scooter.. My target is an i5 2400/2500k with motherboard and ram or even a Phenom II X4+mobo+ram with a decent PSU. Then i will use my old system for Home CCTV.[/citation]

This might be a conversation better placed in the forums, but as a side note, if money is too tight, you could go for a Llano build and have a Hybrid CF setup to make use of the Radeon 6670 since you already have it. A Phenom II CPU (assuming that your motherboard supports them, given that you have an Athlon II, it probably does) could also be used even with your current memory (Phenom II supports DDR2 and DDR3, just not both at the same time) and motherboard. So long as you stick with an AMD APU/CPU, you can reuse parts of your current build so that you can afford better upgrades with the parts that you replace, although if you get the budget to get an i5, that would probably be much more ideal CPU performance for future-proofing as well as current CPU-bottle-necked gaming.
 
AMD dropped the price of the 7850 and 7870 yesterday, now the 7870 can be had for $250 and the 7850 is $200. I would say the nvidia cards aren't worth it as of now but if the price drops a bit, they are nice. If OC is taken into account, the 7850 completely destroys the 660 for performace/price.

the 650 is really meh as expected, the 7750 are going for under $100 and this card just isn't price competitive. the 7750 also got a clock increase to 900mhz that wasn't shown in this review, I'd expect it to be faster while costing less.
 
Cleve you said that "If you think only one manufacturer has driver problems you're living in a bubble."
I like Nvidia because of the frequency of their driver updates.
Have all of them been perfect over the years, of course not.
But over the years Geforce cards have worked well FOR ME.
Your mileage may vary and I would never disrespect anybody that has a good setup that is different from mine. This is a waste of time attempting to win an internet discussion with reason and logic. You have already decided that I am an idiotic jerk for merely stating an opinion. FORUM SUCK!

I felt that saying that I was living in a bubble was disrespectful and highly unprofessional from a forum moderator. Ask you boss how they feel you handled someone with a differing opinion. You should be fired and your keys to the interwebs be taken away.
 
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