Occupy Wall Street

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To answer both of your questions, The root cause is the loss of the manufacturing industries. We cannot survive as a consumer society. Myself and many like-minded people have been saying that since the Reagan administration, sure EZ credit and soaring house prices and cheap Asian products did a good job of hiding the problem for a while but, it has always been just a house of cards. Since I don't want to write all night, I'm going to post part of an email I wrote that touches on some of the feelings I have about Gov., Blue collar jobs and manufacturing. I wrote this letter at the time of the bailouts.

When are we the American people going to wake up and realize that our political process has been hijacked a long time ago by greedy, power hungry politicians both DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS!

While they both seem to have their own political platforms (agendas), the end results have been the same. N.A.F.T.A. Has been supported by every president since its inception. The illegal alien problem or to be politically correct “undocumented worker” problem has grown completely out of control.
Government support for any type of labor movement in almost non-existent and all the while taxes for the rich have been dropping, Resulting in the almost total annihilation of the blue collar middle class.

So who’s fault is it? There’s plenty of blame to go around, But the fact is we “The American People” are the morons who keep believing in the DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS and electing them to office. And how come we don’t insist that they do actually DO represent the people (the majority) and uphold the constitution as they swore to do at their inauguration!

Remember the slogan at the Boston tea party (NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!). Don’t you think it’s time for another one! It seems to me that the most patriotic thing we could do at this point is insist that our leaders uphold the constitution.

While I have no love for either party lets be fair, Obama spoke of his concerns for the shrinking middle class and he sees a need to “Re-open N.A.F.T.A.”. McCain thought everything was just A OK, I believe his exact words were “fundamentally sound” (GET A GRIP!) and he didn’t even back-peddle until he came under intense criticism.

Then came the bail-outs which further illustrates the total absurdity of McCain’s “fundamentally sound” statement. With the savings and loan bailout we the American people are asked to bail out the very institutions and Individuals directly responsible for raping and pillaging our economy in the first place. But the lone voice in the woods speaking against the bail-out was you guessed it Nancy Pelosi. Now admittedly I don’t really like her and she caved the next day But, you have to give credit where credit is due!

While I don’t agree with any of the bail-outs, I’m far LESS against the bail out of the auto industry. There are tens of thousands of jobs (most of them blue-collar) tied to the auto industry and the U.A.W. may be just about the last bastion for the “blue-collar middle class”

One has to wonder why the federal government was so quick to bail out the savings and loan groups (mostly white-collar) with no plan and their so slow to approve any plan to bail out the auto industry (mostly Blue-collar). I have heard some reasons. One that really scares me is the federal government might want to oversee how the money is spent since they’ve done such a fine job of overseeing their own (federal government’s) Budget.

Another reason is: If the American auto industry is forced into bankruptcy they will be able to renegotiate their contract with the U.A.W. for more favorable terms. The U.A.W. has already taken many concessions over the years. They allowed a very large portion of their previous work to be outsourced to outside vendors usually with much lower paid workers. They have allowed manufacturing and assembly plants to be built in other countries to build parts and vehicles to be sold in the U.S.A. usually with much lower paid workers. They have allowed a new hire wage of only $14 pr hr and They have allowed buyouts of senior higher paid workers so that they can be replaced by workers earning $14 pr hr. These are just some of the concessions!

The American auto industry says that an average U.A.W. employee costs $70 pr hr. This figure does NOT represent Actual wages. It represents every possible expense including pensions and buyout’s and probably the toilet paper in the bathroom. With all the outsourcing and buyout’s the rolls of the U.A.W. have dropped dramatically culminating in a much higher percentage of retired employees to active employees resulting in not only a huge monetary savings to the American auto industry but a figure that can be spun to resemble something it’s not! (no good deed is left unpunished)

If we remove the spin we see that a new hires pay is only $14 pr hr and a line workers pay after years of service is $28 pr hr.

What really worries me is that is that so many of my fellow blue-collar workers, many just recently or in the process of being forced out of the middle class are so quick to condemn the few who have not meet our fate and still stand as a ray of hope however dim. We need to bring ourselves up to their level not them down to ours!!

The American public needs to wake up! We the blue-collar worker are the majority in this country and we are being sold down the river! There is a out and out assault on the middle-class in our country whether by design or circumstance it matters not!

N.A.F.T.A. was supposedly designed to allow fair trade between country’s But what is fair about American citizens trying to compete with 3rd world nations whose people labor in such poor conditions they are little better than slaves while the multi-national corporations that employ them reap huge rewards.
Why can’t we refuse to do business with corporations that do not pay their workers a good living wage. Our politicians will tell you that would be protectionism and protectionism is a bad anti-N.A.F.T.A. concept. In this case protectionism would mean the government of the United States of America protecting American workers and citizens from the predatory practices of multi-national corporations, Not to mention the added bonus of possibly making the world in general a better place to live bringing the poorer parts of the world closer up to our level, not us down to theirs!
And what higher calling could any government have than protecting the welfare of its own people! Yet our government would have you believe that protectionism is a bad word!

ILLEGAL ALIENS are NOT UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS! An undocumented worker sounds like someone that showed up for work having forgotten to fill out his application first. If our politicians were to call them by their proper name “ILLEGAL ALIENS” they would by the very definition of the name be required to return most “ILLEGAL ALIENS” to their own country for Justice to prevail. So I have ask why do our political leaders refuse to enforce the laws where illegal aliens are concerned. It’s because they are far more concerned for the short term profit of big business than the long term well-being of the American worker. The politicians will tell us that we need the cheap labor for certain industry to survive, that if it weren’t for the cheap labor certain products would be just too expensive. BULLSHIT! What they don’t tell you is that if it wasn’t for the illegal labor those jobs would be filled by higher paid American workers who would in turn help the economy by purchasing more products and creating more jobs.

I have so much more to say on the subjects of N.A.F.T.A. and illegal aliens but I’m afraid I’m just out of time.
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I don't want anyone, after reading this letter, to think I'm an Obama supporter. I'm not. I was only referring to some things some politicians had said. Talk is cheap. Both the DEMOCRATS and REPUBLICANS are real good at lip service. Unfortunately they are devoid of any meaningful action.
 
And youve found the problem, and see the results, not blame those in the middle
Nice

PS Just heard China is taxing 21% on all US cars sold there

PSS Besides Donald Trump, you hear of any pol wanting reciprocation?
 




RON PAUL.

The federal government was always supposed to be funded by tariffs, not personal income taxes.
 


Definitely a difference of opinion then. I see his attitude on foreign policy as the only voice of reason.
 
While I don’t agree with any of the bail-outs, I’m far LESS against the bail out of the auto industry. There are tens of thousands of jobs (most of them blue-collar) tied to the auto industry and the U.A.W. may be just about the last bastion for the “blue-collar middle class”
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going bankrupt does not mean that tens of thousands of people would loose their jobs. they would restructure their debt and keep making vehicles.

ILLEGAL ALIENS are NOT UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS! An undocumented worker sounds like someone that showed up for work having forgotten to fill out his application first. If our politicians were to call them by their proper name “ILLEGAL ALIENS” they would by the very definition of the name be required to return most “ILLEGAL ALIENS” to their own country for Justice to prevail. So I have ask why do our political leaders refuse to enforce the laws where illegal aliens are concerned. It’s because they are far more concerned for the short term profit of big business than the long term well-being of the American worker. The politicians will tell us that we need the cheap labor for certain industry to survive, that if it weren’t for the cheap labor certain products would be just too expensive. BULLSHIT! What they don’t tell you is that if it wasn’t for the illegal labor those jobs would be filled by higher paid American workers who would in turn help the economy by purchasing more products and creating more jobs.
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this is definitely a hot topic in California. the government is missing about 7 billion dollars in taxes (estimation) because of companies hiring "undocumented" workers to cut costs. Now they are trying to get those 7 billion dollars back by taxing us more. if the fed gov. would actually enforce its laws this would not have to happen.
 
going bankrupt does not mean that tens of thousands of people would loose their jobs. they would restructure their debt and keep making vehicles.
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No argument there. Did you miss this part of the letter?
If the American auto industry is forced into bankruptcy they will be able to renegotiate their contract with the U.A.W. for more favorable terms.
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this is definitely a hot topic in California. the government is missing about 7 billion dollars in taxes (estimation) because of companies hiring "undocumented" workers to cut costs. Now they are trying to get those 7 billion dollars back by taxing us more. if the fed gov. would actually enforce its laws this would not have to happen.
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The thing is I do feel for these people. Most of the ones I've meet are pretty decent people just trying to make a better life for their family but, to turn a blind eye to illegal immigration at the expense of your own community and your fellow citizens is fundamentally wrong.

It's kind of ridiculous to expect them to stop poring over the boarders when our own government doesn't seem to care. Not to far from where I live there is a meat packing plant called Smithfield Packing. They came to an agreement with ICE (Immigration and Customs Enforcement) not to arrest more than 15 illegal aliens in one day so as not to have a negative impact on the plants operations.

So instead of being charged or fined for illegal hiring practices ICE is in effect helping to make sure that Smithfield Packing doesn't have to endure any negative effects form their own illegal activity's. I swear it just boggles the mind! :pt1cable:
 
Talked with my grandfather. He found out some guys around the US are heading to the Midwest to buy rigs and go with shipping companies. many are needed in the US. Pay I heard last was 600,000 USD. That might keep the wiiffie at bay to pay off college debts for a few years I would think?
 


Doing What?
 


For 600,000 a year you would have to be doing something specialized and team at that. After paying for road taxes, reg. Taxes, truck payments, truck repairs, truck maintenance, insurance, regular expenses (meals etc.), co-drivers pay+comp+taxes, tolls, the most expensive of all fuel and there are more, the amount of money you will have left will depend on what you are hauling and where you are hauling it to and from. You will be working 7 days a week whenever possible + 12hrs a day (if you have a co-driver) and living in a box.

You will not get a good job at first so you can forget about that $600.00 a year for a while, maybe forever. At first even Doctors go through a period of time where they work long hours for little pay. It will be the same for you only the end-rewards will not be as great.

Even if you do end up eventually making $600 grand per year, your end will be just a small fraction of that. Experienced truck drivers are going to Iraq for $85,000 a year. If they could earn more here they would.

I'm not trying to bust your chopps but, if trucking was as good as some trucking company's and recruiters keep telling everyone they are, they wouldn't need to say anything and they certainly wouldn't need a recruiter. They would already have a long line of applicants at the door. :sol:
 


Yea, I get it. I really do. The question in my mind is: Is our reaction to this going to improve relations or worsen them and after we help topple a regime (Libya comes to mind) do we end up with something better? (Muslim brotherhood comes to mind).

It is of my opinion that taking military action in areas of the world where a significant portion of the population already hates us will do nothing but breed new and more determined enemies.

True allot of these dictators are bad people and kill many of their own innocent people but when we go in there and bomb the crap out of a bunch more people, that hardly makes us saviors in the eyes of their countryman. In fact many times it makes us the greater enemy and if they didn't like us much in the first place the effect is amplified.

Don't get me wrong I'm not some pussy that thinks we should just lay down and submit. I get Afghanistan but, whats up with Iraq?

We need to stop crossing everyone else's borders and pay more attention to our own. If someone tries to enter from an unfriendly country it should be understood that they will receive much higher and ongoing scrutiny. If they think that's unfair then they can just stay the ____ home! If they don't want to blend in and live as Americans under our constitutional guidelines (separation of church/(Mosque) and state) then they can also, just stay the ____ home!

If they get in, then try to impose religious laws (sharia comes to mind) or induce sedition by preaching a holly war against all that don't believe in their religion they should be imprisoned or executed as enemy spies.

If they do this as or after becoming citizens they should be given a fair trial and if found guilty executed as traitors!

In short I welcome ANYONE legally immigrating to my country that wants to live the traditional American way of life but, I have absolutely no Patience for anyone who wants to destroy it and hiding our heads in the sand and pretending that people like this don't exist is sure to harm us if we don't wake up to reality! 😱

Your turn.
 


OK well I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying we should attack Iran?
 
No, I do not think Oldman is saying that. However, his point may be that the Iranian state is funding our hidden enemy. We call these guys 'Terrorists', they are really Jihadists out to get those who are not deemed holy in their eyes.
 


Yes, I realize all that "dogman". My point is I don't know what "oldmangamer" is trying to say and would like to, so I know how to respond. My question was not a rhetorical one, it was just an honest question.
 

well to my understanding we went into Iraq to get suddam hussein. the unspeakable things he was doing to his people and how he tried to overrun Kuwait and Iran for oil. He was a ruthless man and it is better that he is gone now.
 


I'm 54 yrs old and very well informed. Just because we don't agree on what action we should take doesn't mean I don't know the facts. 1979 wasn't yesterday, last week, last month, last year or even last decade. The time to respond with military action was 32 yrs ago. Carter failed to respond (I don't consider a failed rescue a proper military response.) and Reagen basically just paid off Ayatollah Khomeini. Our time to respond came and went 32 yrs ago. But I do wholeheartedly agree with you that the truth especially when it comes to anything that concerns the dangers of Islam is not widely reported or taught in our schools (at all).



We went after him the first time because he did overrun Kuwait. We did not care about "the unspeakable things he was doing to his people" until that point. In-fact up to that point we considered Saddam Hussein an ally and in the past had given him material support for his war with Iran. I personally wonder if we would have given Kuwait any aid at all had Iraq still been at war with Iran.

In my opinion other than Israel we have no real allies in the middle east. But I don't think continued and escalated military conflict there will produce a good desired result. We would be far better off closing our borders to them, taking the money we save and investing it in alternatives to middle-eastern oil which accounts for 23% of all oil imported to the US but only 11% of our total consumption when our own oil is figured into the equation.

P.S. "oldmangamer_73" I saw the link you provided for "pro-gamer" in the "US Marines" thread. GOOD FOR YOU! Way to many clueless people responding to that poor kid. You have my respect. Maybe not total agreement but, certainly respect! :bounce:
 
It is safe to say that Bush had a very difficult decision. People make valid points for each side of the argument. I know I would not want to make that decision.
I agree when we went after him the first time because he was overrunning Kuwait but the second time when we invaded Iraq the unspeakable things he was doing to his people was part of the equation.
It is probably better now if we do close our borders off to them. With their religion they held on to the past, not to mention they missed out on the enlightenment, industrial revolution, etc. so us going into there and implementing a democracy was probably scary for them since they are attached and used to strong dictators. I do think the middle east needs to figure it out and fix itself on its own. More and more people are getting influences from Western Civilization everyday and they will figure out that they can have a better life with democracy and they will strive for it.
 
Your bankrupt ... what else can you do?

Some good points about illegal immigrants.

If China is imposing tariffs on US made cars than that just tells you they are not operating on the same playing field and the "free market economy" is just a failure.

The US should impose tariffs on everything from China and watch them smarten up their act straight away.

You need to reinvigorate local manufacturing and protective tariffs and tax breaks for local business is a good start.

Kickstarting the economy to produce more local products without the fear of being made competitively redundant by cheap overseas product is something your government should be doing.

The free market economy principle is also a joke when you consider China deliberately keeps their currency exchange rate low (devalued).

China is your enemy ... you just haven't worked it out yet.

When they own everything American it will then be too late.

Ny imposing tariffs on chinese imports you will also crush their economy overnight.

This might end up causing enough strife to overthrow their repressive regime ... if enough of their people starve.
 

China can afford to do that because they have such cheap labor, and how would we make all of the things we need in America. Manufacturing plants will be put up with strict enviromental regulations unlike China and in the end it would be too expensive for us. I'm for a tariff on cars not made in America though. American cars are starting to make a comeback.
 


If we applied heavy tarrifs to China, the cost to export the manufacturing and then import the product would be to costly to American companies. As I stated a while back, manufacturing is slowly making it's way back into this country as foreign currencies appreciate; and considering China is engaging at currency fixing they are very aware of this fact and are attempting to devalue their currency to keep those manufacturing jobs. Also, if we imposed the same environmental standards on China as we have here, through tarrifs and quality control mechanisms, the costs would continue to favor American manufacturing over foreign. However, keep in mind that the exodus of American manufacturing happened because we gave China preferential treatment which was a huge incentive for American firms to manufacture goods else where.

Idonno, you're a pleasure to read.
 


You, bring up some good points. Before Bush jr. no president had ever encountered anything like 9/11. Sure some will bring up Perl Harbor but that isn't a good parallel. 9/11 was a major attack by terrorists on US citizens on US soil, where Perl Harbor was a military attack on a US military installation on US soil. Two very different events.

I think president Bush felt a very real need to set a crystal clear example in the middle east that if you messed with us in any way we WOULD take you out! Was Iraq directly responsible for 9/11 of course not. But many middle eastern country's including Iraq had been either supporting radical Islam or turning a blind eye. So in that sense they did at least have some culpability.

Besides Afghanistan Iraq was the perfect example because:

#1 we were still at war with them, there was only a cease fire in affect.

#2 Iraq had (supposedly) violated the terms of the cease fire many times in the no-fly zone.

#3 Even though Iraq did not have any (significant) weapons of mass destruction and I think our government ether knew or became aware of that fact, even Saddam Hussein admitted after capture that he wanted us to think he did. BIG MISTAKE!

#4 "the unspeakable things he was doing to his people was part of the equation" while I don't think this was an important factor in our governments decision to end the cease fire, I do believe it was important to many Americans including our solders who are real human beings and NOT just a bunch of blood thirsty killers as some would have you believe.

#5 In 1993 terrorists working for the Iraqi Intelligence Service attempted to assassinate Bush Sr. during his visit to Kuwait. This is not just important because he was a direct family member of the our sitting president (although that in it's self is very important) but he was also a former President and any attack on a US President (sitting or former) or his immediate family by a foreign nation is an attack on the US.

So should we have gone into Iraq a 2nd time? Maybe but, I don't think prolonged occupation will win us any points in the personality dept.

I live in Norfolk, VA. If I walk just one block I can see the entrance to Little Creek Naval Base. Everyone I know is either retired military or has immediate family (myself included) in the military. No one I know feels very good about the prospects for Iraq or Afghanistan after our departure and these are people that have been or are still there. They don't feel that prolonged involvement will yield any positive results ether.

Maybe if we had handled things a little different at the beginning of the occupation things would be better but, we didn't and they aren't

There are some good people in Iraq or Afghanistan but, until they are willing and able to take control of their own country's destiny, I don't think further involvement will yield positive results.

Unfortunately, I think the best we can do at this point is leave them alone and make sure they do the same with us.

So, yes "mjmjpfaff" I do believe we are in total agreement on this issue.
 


Cheers, but watch out... You might get labeled as a big-bad American-business hater like myself... :pt1cable:

I agree wholeheartedly on all accounts, except #4: The way that Sadam was treating his people wasn't a real consideration for the US, even if he was going so far as genocide. It was a great talking point and an attempt at justifying occupation but it wasn't a real issue; NATO's current purpose is for issues like this and the United Nations is the arena to talk about it in. American policing was far more the issue than worrying about a nation who's people have next to no influence on our or the world's economy. Any justification that it was "about the people" was media/pundit/politician created in entirety.
 


I do believe the label has already been applied :pt1cable: and re-read #4 more carefully. the first sentence ("the unspeakable things he was doing to his people was part of the equation") was one of the quotes I was addressing from mjmjpfaff

The second part (I don't think this was an important factor in our governments decision to end the cease fire) was about the lack of gov. motivation on this issue.

And the 3rd part (I do believe it was important to many Americans including our solders who are real human beings and NOT just a bunch of blood thirsty killers as some would have you believe) is about how they used (used being the key word here) it to motivate our people and troops. 😴

And from what I gather from the rest of your statement we are in complete agreement.
 
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