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Ruel Smith wrote:
> David Maynard wrote:
>
>
>>>Let's face it, the first time you sat down to a computer, did you have a
>>>clue? Using a completely different OS is like sitting down to a computer
>>>for the first time all over again.
>>
>>That's the myth Linux aficionados use to explain away the jumbled mishmash
>>of inconsistent and obscure operation that comprises a typical 'Linux'
>>system. And it's true, if one puts little effort into making a consistent,
>>intuitive, user friendly system.
>
>
> Not true. If Linux was the first OS you ever sat down and tried, and you
> learned your way around, you'd have an equally difficult time using Windows
> for the first time, as does current first time Linux users.
You can make that argument all day long but it simply isn't true and it
derives from precisely the presumptions I described.
It's often difficult to give specific examples because many of them seem
like trivial things when taken alone and one by one (and are inevitably
dismissed as "well, linux just works different") but they add up to an
overall experience. However, I'll give you one of the trivial things: the
Windows "START" button which, on Suse, is a pretty green ball next to some
other pretty colored things. (KDE standard is a pretty gear with a K in it)
Trivial? Yes. 'Solvable' with a few words? Yes. But it's an example of
something that needs less 'explaining' in Windows. Do that a few hundred
times and it isn't a 'few words' any more, and that Linux developers tend
to dismiss such trivialities is precisely one of the problems.
Ironically, what makes it an intuitive place to begin is that it's in the
same place as the START button in Windows so if one already knows Windows
they're likely to try it. Otherwise, to your "first time" user, it would be
just another pretty colored thing. But "START" just might be a place to,
uh, start. Ya think? Let's try it. Well, lookie there, a menu!
That is also why programs are called silly intuitive things like "notepad"
and "wordpad" instead of "Joe" or "Kate", or paint and photoshop instead of
GIMP (Graphics Image Manipulation Program, if you get so far as to discover
the name behind the letters) or xzgv (for kibitzers: I didn't make that one
up. It's real).
None of which are significant on their own, but it adds up. At least Suse
had the good sense to plaster "Control Center" in front of YaST (Yet
Another clueless name) on the menu, although there's another "Control
Center" for KDE.
Engineers love giving things 'cute' acronyms that need a decoder ring to
decipher but once you get used to it you might begin to figure some of them
out, if it dawns on you to imagine that ya actually means something, yet
again, but it isn't something the "first time user" you keep speaking of is
going to intuit.
And then there's figuring out if you installed all the pieces to make an
application do what you think it should do. I don't mean "dependencies," I
mean things like, did you install the right codec with your xawtv? What?
You don't know what a codec is? Shame. Then you for sure won't know that
"libtheora" is the "Free Video Codec" that plays Theora and VP3 streams.
And if you have a clue what that means then you're a Linux user.
A windows user will eventually figure that a .avi file is a 'movie' because
video and sound comes out of them through media player when they click on
it, but a 'codec'? That's something Media Player does every once in a
while: automatically download one.
All of these are solvable, 'explainable', things, but it adds up.
> I will qualify
> that by saying, I'm talking about using the computer, not installing it.
> Linux's Achilles heal is lack of hardware support.
Well, it's one of the 'heels', and it's a big one. But be careful about
'upgrading' because you might discover your display driver isn't compatible
with the new kernel anymore, and especially if it's an ATI. That may be
ATI's fault but then our "first time user" doesn't give a tinker's dam
who's fault it is.
>>Which is, of course, the point and the problem.
>>
>>One of the reason's Linux 'gurus' believe that is the "engineer's
>>syndrome" I mentioned in another message. They tend to think in terms of
>>'how the guts work' rather than 'what would be easy for the user?' Or,
>>rather, they're unable to separate the two because they tend to think that
>>'how it works' is, well, 'how it works' and surely you have to understand
>>that to
>>'use' it. Which is why they tend to think that a 'user friendly
>>interface' is a 'page' that allows you to type in exactly the same thing
>>you would have otherwise done with a text editor. Thing is, it's still a
>>jumble of metalanguage items, organized the way 'the guts work',
>>indecipherable to the average user.
>
>
> While this is still true to some extent, it's mostly old outdated info. You
> can setup the majority of your system with SuSE or Mandrake Linux without
> ever editing a single configuration file or using the commandline. I say
> the majority because I'm sure there are obscurities that still need to be
> addressed that way. However, an average Linux user will never have to do it
> with those distros. They use control panels that are very similar to a
> Windows/Macintosh environment to set it all up, now. Now, Debian,
> Slackware, Gentoo, etc., are a completely different ballgame.
Yes, Suse, Mandrake, and Redhat are definitely the best in ease of use,
which is why they're also the most popular with 'plain jane' users, but
it's grossly overstating the case to claim they're to the level of XP.
Someone coming from windows98 might think they're close though (while being
more feature rich than 98).
>>The point is, no, one doesn't have to know how a digital watch works, much
>>less how integrated circuits are made, to read time off it.
>>
>>One may have been clueless when they first sat at a computer but it's a
>>heck of a lot easier, and more intuitive, to learn how a menu system works
>>than it is 'no clue given' commands on a command line. And it's a heck of
>>a lot easier to follow wizards asking questions in your own language than
>>it is to decipher a gaggle of metalanguage command switches or to track
>>down scattered configurations files and text edit them, uh, back to
>>finding more doc files and deciphering that metalanguage.
>
>
> Again, you don't need to use the commandline anymore. That's what KDE is all
> about. It has come a very long way...
I specifically said those were only 'examples' (picked for ease of
visualizing the point) and that they were not any 'particular' Linux
distribution.
KDE improves things a lot (and for a "first time user" it's light years
ahead of any other Linux Window Manager because it's really an application
suite as well as a WM) but it doesn't 'fix' everything. IMO Suse comes
closest with Yast and KDE combined. Mandrake looked pretty good too but I
settled on Suse and, at the moment, I can't remember precisely why. (I also
run Debian for the sadomasochistic thrill of it)
But just look at the 'excuses' Linux zealots will use, such as 'it should
be in the next kernel'. Linux zealots become paragons of patience and
tolerance, willing to just shrug almost anything off, when it comes to
things that don't work, or are unsupported, but there's no such thing with
Windows. Even the slightest inconvenience becomes a testament to the
'stupidity' of *&v$&* Windows and they don't care what the 'reasons' are,
they just want their new camera to work when they plug it in.
Speaking of which, I have a USB webcam that I can actually get a picture
with, sometimes, but, for the life of me, Linux simply will *not* record
anything; you get a 'file' that isn't even video, or audio for that matter.
Or at least it says it isn't, by not even bothering to open a video window,
when the very same program tries to play it back. Who knows what the
problem is but this is pretty basic multimedia stuff and not like I was
asking it to do something bizarre or bleeding edge 'new'.
I do get a kick out of the KDETV error message 'tip' one gets if there's a
problem opening a video device though: "try playing with the configuration
options for the V4L plugin." Yea, baby. 'Play' is what I was trying to do
😉
>>Even with something so basic as installing a new program, in Windows it'll
>>end up on the menu, under Programs, and, in XP, highlighted as new. With
>>Linux lord knows whether it'll end up on a menu somewhere and, even if it
>>does, lord knows where in the menu or by what cryptic name.
>
>
> Not on any distro I've used in a long time. I'm currently running Debian
> Sarge, and I have yet to run into an application I've installed that hasn't
> made its way onto the Kmenu.
Well I have, and on both Suse and Sarge. Although I've switched my Debian
to Sid for more recent releases, in particular KDE.
> I think much of your info is dated.
It's dated only if you consider being on Suse 9.2 with 9.3 just released
this month, or so, 'dated'.
I like Linux, run a number of different systems, and there are things you
can do with Linux that you simply can't with Windows. For example, I have
the arm version of Debian Potato running on a Webpal. But then we were
talking about "first time users" and not nuts, like me, hacking webpals
into general purpose platforms.
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