News Outpost: Infinity Siege' devs ask 13900K, 14900K owners to downclock their chips to prevent crashing

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With the same dissipator ? For real ? I doubt.
Not just for games, games use a lot less power than other things, even at full power with the 13900k at 330W it still runs 10 degrees cooler than the 7950x even though that is only drawing 215W max.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17641/lighter-touch-cpu-power-scaling-13900k-7950x/3
sNUwgPN.jpg
 
My guess is that even if the cpu seems stable, it might be returning minimally incorrect data. And the game is stupidly delicate that this data makes it crash.
If any CPU return "minimally incorrect data" than you have a trash can instead of a CPU.
"Stupidly delicate software" is a nonsense, the CPU must work correct 100% otherwise software do not work before or after.
 
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Did you use a lower end mobo? Maybe VRMs are suspect, if they can't handle rapid changes in power delivery requirements they might droop a lot and cause crashes.
I actually only have one Z790 board... I could try the chip in two Z690 boards that I have, though those are test beds used for other purposes and they are running fine so I'm hesitant to change anything on them. I do have a couple of other Z790 boards coming to me, one Asus and one ASRock, and I'm going to try swapping over my CPU, RAM, power, etc. to those and see if the same problems persist.

Because I really am curious about the root cause here. If the same chip exhibits the same issues in all three boards, that clearly points to a CPU problem. Or perhaps it's even a memory problem, though I believe I tried running at DDR5-5600 at one point and still had the same issues so I don't think it's RAM. Again, I can check that when I get the other boards.

The way I see it, there are three main candidates:
  1. CPU silicon lottery means some i9-13900K/14900K CPUs can't actually handle 'normal' settings.
  2. The motherboard is setting unstable settings, likely in combination with #1.
  3. The memory in combination with #1 and/or #2 is creating problems.
All of these can be checked, once I get a different motherboard to test. My instincts (based on other reports) tell me that it's mostly #1, but that editing settings for #2 can 'fix' the problem or work around it. I will hopefully have something concrete to report in the next week or two.
 
I actually only have one Z790 board... I could try the chip in two Z690 boards that I have, though those are test beds used for other purposes and they are running fine so I'm hesitant to change anything on them. I do have a couple of other Z790 boards coming to me, one Asus and one ASRock, and I'm going to try swapping over my CPU, RAM, power, etc. to those and see if the same problems persist.

Because I really am curious about the root cause here. If the same chip exhibits the same issues in all three boards, that clearly points to a CPU problem. Or perhaps it's even a memory problem, though I believe I tried running at DDR5-5600 at one point and still had the same issues so I don't think it's RAM. Again, I can check that when I get the other boards.

The way I see it, there are three main candidates:
  1. CPU silicon lottery means some i9-13900K/14900K CPUs can't actually handle 'normal' settings.
  2. The motherboard is setting unstable settings, likely in combination with #1.
  3. The memory in combination with #1 and/or #2 is creating problems.
All of these can be checked, once I get a different motherboard to test. My instincts (based on other reports) tell me that it's mostly #1, but that editing settings for #2 can 'fix' the problem or work around it. I will hopefully have something concrete to report in the next week or two.
I would agree if....it was an issue in many games. Is there any other game having this issue that you know of? If not then isn't the issue simply that the game is doing something odd and over pushing a cpu, or at least doing something that no other game does that runs into a weird issue?

Right now the uniqueness of the issue seems to be a this game issue, not a hardware issue to me.
 
I would agree if....it was an issue in many games. Is there any other game having this issue that you know of? If not then isn't the issue simply that the game is doing something odd and over pushing a cpu, or at least doing something that no other game does that runs into a weird issue?

Right now the uniqueness of the issue seems to be a this game issue, not a hardware issue to me.
You're coming in late to this story. I haven't even tried Outpost: Infinity Siege. That it's exhibiting problems for some Core i9 users isn't even remotely surprising to me, because many games had problems over the past year or so. Here's a Steam forum thread on the subject.

Horizon Zero Dawn would fail during shader compilation about 80% of the time — or rather, it would probably get something like 10–30 percent finished each time I restarted and tried again, so after five times it would finally have all of the shaders compiled and would then run fine.

The Last of Us, Part 1 crashed to desktop about 90% of the time. Hogwarts Legacy was so bad that I was convinced the game was unplayable and left it alone for a couple of months. Metro Exodus: Enhanced crashed maybe 60% of the time (until shader compilation was finished). Immortals of Aveum was another impacted game. There have been at least half a dozen games that I personally tried where they would crash, and by no means have I sampled every game out there, not even close.

About nine months back, I had figured out a workaround: I would set the game processor affinity to just eight of the P-cores (none of the E-cores). This would get the affected games to finish shader compilation probably 80–90 percent of the time. I had also noticed that my CPU was hitting 98–100C before crashing, which is why I even tried messing with affinity.

So then a few months back, I was having a conversation in the forums regarding another game or something. That led to the writing of this article:
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-com...blame-other-high-end-intel-cpus-also-affected

In other words, yes, this happens in quite a lot of games for impacted CPUs / motherboards / whatever. It definitely doesn't affect all Core i9-13900K or 14900K processors. In fact, it's probably a very small percentage, like 5% at most. If it was a bigger problem, it would have been all over the internet right when the 13900K launched. But if you have a CPU that's right near the limit of stability at "stock" settings, then it seems a lot of motherboards push beyond safe levels and that causes the problem.

Does that make it Intel's fault? Well, not if the CPUs are fully stable at stock settings. Just because 12900K, 11900K, 10900K and 9900K were all fine being pushed higher than the official specs doesn't mean every future CPU needs to have the same margins. And that's the crux of the issue. We need proof of CPUs that can't even run safely at stock settings to prove this is a problem... and they need to be new CPUs that weren't potentially run at "auto overclock" settings for a year or more, because that could cause degradation.

In my book, what we really need is for the motherboard makers to stop using auto-overclocks as the default behavior in their BIOS / firmware. I'm not against having those settings, but they should clearly be a case of users saying, "Yes, please, try to give my system a modest performance boost by increasing the power levels, core clocks, and memory speeds." If I tell the BIOS to load optimized defaults, that doesn't even turn on XMP, so why should it turn on higher power and current limits that spec?
 
I actually only have one Z790 board... I could try the chip in two Z690 boards that I have, though those are test beds used for other purposes and they are running fine so I'm hesitant to change anything on them. I do have a couple of other Z790 boards coming to me, one Asus and one ASRock, and I'm going to try swapping over my CPU, RAM, power, etc. to those and see if the same problems persist.

Because I really am curious about the root cause here. If the same chip exhibits the same issues in all three boards, that clearly points to a CPU problem. Or perhaps it's even a memory problem, though I believe I tried running at DDR5-5600 at one point and still had the same issues so I don't think it's RAM. Again, I can check that when I get the other boards.

The way I see it, there are three main candidates:
  1. CPU silicon lottery means some i9-13900K/14900K CPUs can't actually handle 'normal' settings.
  2. The motherboard is setting unstable settings, likely in combination with #1.
  3. The memory in combination with #1 and/or #2 is creating problems.
All of these can be checked, once I get a different motherboard to test. My instincts (based on other reports) tell me that it's mostly #1, but that editing settings for #2 can 'fix' the problem or work around it. I will hopefully have something concrete to report in the next week or two.
I think it's highly unlikely to be the CPUs themselves since each CPU has it's own VID table. Most likely culprit are the AC/DC loadlines and settings affecting them, like SVID behavior on ASUS mobos (basically LLC). Even on my Z690, the bios that added support for 14th gen made my 12900k crash at stock (due to boosting the cache even with ecores on, which is a nono on 12th gen). So basically, mobo manafacturers are doing their best yet again 😎
 
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Lumberg: yeah we're gonna need you to down clock your CPU that can hit 6.3ghz and we're also gonna need you to down clock it to 5ghz that'd be great.
 
If you read some of the Steam reviews you will see a bunch of people with crashes, I'm sure all of these people have the highest end Intel processors (NOT)

Overall a junk game that is not even like advertised (from reviews I don't own it), broke, and rolling out patches very fast to help with crashes and bugs.

I would say just another bad game rolled out before it was ready for release, just like most games today, put it out we need to start making money!
 
I have a 13700k and it was crashing in some games with a 4090 and a 3090. I was attributing it to the CPU because I built a whole brand new system and put my 4090 in that one and had no crashing with Ryzen 7900x but I did notice some weird latency issues with the ryzen CPU. And both systems had a thousand watt power supply.

Trying to get my ddr5 to run at 6,000 with the 7900x was a pain too.

So by what I can tell there's problems with both Intel and Ryzen. No company is perfect and no hardware combo is perfect.

We're just happy when everything runs.

In that new system though dragon dogma's 2 was crashing whenever I went to ultra wide screen. That's probably a game issue though.
 
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That is just b**s. No reason to downclock the CPU here at all (14900k owner). I am not sure where they tested this game but this is completely incorrect. I can run Cinebench R23 and run any game at the same time, it runs fine.
First, it seems there's some element of silicon lottery, here. Second, you'd have to publish your motherboard model and BIOS settings for us to have any chance of knowing it your setup is even susceptible to the problem.

I have never seen a CPU running over 48C on any games including Cyberpunk 2077 and I doubt this game is more demanding than Cyberpunk 2077 which can pull a lot of power.
I think you misunderstand the issue. It's not one of average power, but rather peak power. Perhaps even for a very short amount of time.

Appears to be game specific.
Because some games are better-threaded than others, some can demand more of the CPU and that seems to be the problem.

The solution seems very clear to me.
What? Not use certain software, just because it tries to extract the most performance possible from the hardware that you paid for? Consider me unimpressed.

What's going to happen is probably games gimping their performance, because many would otherwise blame the software for their hardware problems. As you guys just showed.

If you read some of the Steam reviews you will see a bunch of people with crashes, I'm sure all of these people have the highest end Intel processors (NOT)
Even so, if down-clocking the CPU eliminates a significant amount of instability, then there probably is a real hardware issue. As Jarred said, this issue has been observed with other software and by other users.

It feels like you're coming in late and with incomplete information.
 
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With the same dissipator ? For real ? I doubt.
We know Zen 4 CPUs have less die area and worse packaging, both of which contribute towards making them harder to cool. That doesn't necessarily mean they're burning more power or throttling to a degree that has much performance impact.

even at full power with the 13900k at 330W it still runs 10 degrees cooler than the 7950x even though that is only drawing 215W max.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/17641/lighter-touch-cpu-power-scaling-13900k-7950x/3
First, we should note that both sets of temps are measured using a 360 mm radiator.

Second, who cares about die temperature? It's the performance & efficiency that ultimately matters.
 
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First, we should note that both sets of temps are measured using a 360 mm radiator.
So it is a fair test with both systems having the same "dissipator"
Second, who cares about die temperature?
The person I answered to, or even if they didn't care, they doubted.
It's the performance & efficiency that ultimately matters.
In deed, and at stock, which is 125W for the 14900k, the 7950x uses 40% more power on average for an 3.5% advantage in overall performance.
D5TipA9.jpg
 
Even so, if down-clocking the CPU eliminates a significant amount of instability, then there probably is a real hardware issue. As Jarred said, this issue has been observed with other software and by other users.

It feels like you're coming in late and with incomplete information.
Nope I went through everything that was posted and stayed on topic instead of going off topic and trying to make it about AMD VS Intel!

Jarred even stated I don't have the game.

In the steam reviews it clearly shows a game that was not ready for release. Some had no crashing but still a lot of bugs some were crashing all the time. Some of the people crashing all the time said the last couple of patches have helped or even stopped the crashes.

We all know the board manufactures try to get all they can be it Intel or the burning of the X3D chips.
 
I've seem all of those, so your saying everybody crashing in that game all have a 13900K/14900K I would think not.
A game can crash for more than one reason. Just because some of the crashes might be due to normal software bugs doesn't mean they all are!

Raptor Lake's stability problems with other games & software have been documented well enough to establish that their claims are entirely plausible. Perhaps you're right that it's just a buggy game and they're trying to deflect from that, but the way we would know, with a fairly high degree of certainty, is if people are experiencing frequent crashes at a certain point, and find the no longer occur by changing their hardware settings.

As you point out, most people are not playing with an i9 Raptor Lake CPU. So, I question why they would even bother trying to blame stability problems on it, since it seems such claims would be easy enough to refute if all they are is hollow deflections.
 
A game can crash for more than one reason. Just because some of the crashes might be due to normal software bugs doesn't mean they all are!

Raptor Lake's stability problems with other games & software have been documented well enough to establish that their claims are entirely plausible. Perhaps you're right that it's just a buggy game and they're trying to deflect from that, but the way we would know, with a fairly high degree of certainty, is if people are experiencing frequent crashes at a certain point, and find the no longer occur by changing their hardware settings.

As you point out, most people are not playing with an i9 Raptor Lake CPU. So, I question why they would even bother trying to blame stability problems on it, since it seems such claims would be easy enough to refute if all they are is hollow deflections.
When the reviews are saying the patches are helping the crashing problem it's fairly clear to me.

When you can try to blame hardware and say it's not our game it helps people from demanding a refund.
 
When the reviews are saying the patches are helping the crashing problem it's fairly clear to me.
Which crashes, though? Are they at the same point that people can also avoid by changing their hardware settings, or are they different crashes? As I said a game can crash for multiple, different reasons.

Also, even if the hardware is at fault, they can issue a patch that simply limits how many cores the game uses at that point. So, a patch fixing a crash doesn't prove it had nothing to do with hardware. In fact, this is the route I'd expect to see more and more game developers taking, in the short term. The consumer is the one who loses out, because they're no longer getting all of the performance they paid for.
 
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When the reviews are saying the patches are helping the crashing problem it's fairly clear to me.

When you can try to blame hardware and say it's not our game it helps people from demanding a refund.
The game uses UE5 which is the most commonly reported problematic game engine with regards to RPL CPU crashing issues (entirely possible the way that shaders are compiled). The thing you seem to be ignoring is that two things can be true: the game can be a buggy mess pushed out the door too early and hardware issues can be making certain types of crashing worse.
 
The game uses UE5 which is the most commonly reported problematic game engine with regards to RPL CPU crashing issues (entirely possible the way that shaders are compiled). The thing you seem to be ignoring is that two things can be true: the game can be a buggy mess pushed out the door too early and hardware issues can be making certain types of crashing worse.
Then it's a game problem (game engine= game) not hardware rather the way it acts with that game engine.

EDIT everybody knows most board makers are to aggressive with the PL limits. Your average user knows nothing about that but more advanced users know how to adjust it.

The first paragraph on the page, says they know it's a game problem and trying to give people a Band-Aid to fix the game until they can.

Recently released title Outpost: Infinity Siege just got its second patch in a matter of days rectifying certain crashes during cutscenes. However, the developerss revealed in the patch notes that there are still high-priority issues causing severe crashes and screen blackouts in-game. The issues are bad enough that the developers at Team Ranger are recommending users downclock their Core i9 Raptor Lake or Raptor Lake Refresh CPUs to 5 GHz as a temporary measure.

That says game problem.
 
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