PCs out of Balance - Need some Help

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"John Phillips" <jsphillips1@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qwV2e.492273$w62.416761@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > level, the only instance I've ever seen that have been in the case of an
> > over-magicked character or a super-game-mechanics-optimized character.
> I'm
> > pleased to learn if there are other things that can cause that, so that
I
> > can avoid those causes as well.
>
> You have never seen poor game mastering, bad choices at character
creation,a
> room full of poor players and one skilled player or anyone playing a low
> level magic user in a 1st ed game?

Poor DMing allows for munchkinism by allowing treasure, "skilled"
players(game mechanics wise) that use those skills to their extreme result
in power gaming, poor DMing allows newer players to make poor choices in
character design. Low level MU's are supposed to be piddly until they hit
about 5th level. It's their tradeoff for later power.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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arivne@cox.net wrote:
> David Serhienko wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>Had a Magic-User in 2e who insisted on wielding the
>>battleaxe of a fallen comrade 'in his memory'. I
>>applied the standard XP penalties at first.
>>
>
> <snip>
>
> What standard XP penalties?

I am sure I remember there being an experience penalty in 1e/2e for
using restricted weapons or armor. Maybe that was a house rule from the
DM who taught me to play, and I've always thought it was correct, like
when I discovered just two years ago that halfling PCs in Basic did NOT
get thieving abilities. We'd always just played it that way, and I'd
never played a halfling, or DMd Basic until then, so it was nothing I
ever looked up.

Anyone else remember a penalty to xp in 1e or 2e for using inappropriate
weapons?

DWS

 

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On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:22:34 -0600, David Serhienko
<david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> raised a finger to the sky and
proclaimed:

>Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>> David Serhienko wrote:
>>
>>>The next bit in the [rust monster] description is a bit strange:
>>>"Magic armor and weapons, and other magic items made of metal, must
>>>succeed on a DC 17 Reflex save or be dissolved. The save DC is
>>>Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus."
>>
>> No, that's just explaining how they calculated the DC: 1/2 of the
>> monster's HD + Con bonus + 4 racial bonus.
>
>That makes sense. Thanks.
>
>DWS

Confused me when I first saw it, too, because my first response was
"so what?"

But if for some reason the Rust Monster gets a Con increase, then that
DC would go up.

So all you Druids, go cast your Bear's Endurance, *before* sending
your pets out.

--
Either way, I hate you Count Chocula, if I didn't already.
- Drifter Bob, rec.games.frp.dnd

 

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In article <rsWdnUQVWfLD_NHfRVn-uQ@comcast.com>,
Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:n2kn41huoinonteo43k6s7efpnjrd9veab@4ax.com...
>> >Oooh, I like that. Especially with my players, they use metagame
>> >information almost at will.
>>
>> The same players you describe as good roleplayers?
>
>Yep. When they are role playing(you would call it "play acting"), they role
>play well. When they are not actively role playing, they'll use metagame
>information quite often. It's something I'm used to, and I don't terribly
>mind that it happens.

Firewalling (between player knowledge and character knowledge) is a nontrivial
roleplaying skill; I'm having to work at teaching it to my 10-year old, and
the tales from my original AD&D group included quite a few failures --
including on the part of DMs (the bad guys knew as much as the DM about the
characters, sometimes).
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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"David Alex Lamb" <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:d2holm$874$1@knot.queensu.ca...
> Firewalling (between player knowledge and character knowledge) is a
nontrivial
> roleplaying skill; I'm having to work at teaching it to my 10-year old,
and

Well, I guess that depends on what you seek in your game.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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In article <114mtbn40scrq6a@corp.supernews.com>,
David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
>He (the player) his cahrted out the age, gender and number of offspring
>of every single ancestor of his great grandfather. He hasn't specified
>where they all are, as he knows I would want to use that as a game hook,
>as possible.

I assume you meant "descendant" of his g-grandfather/

>There are literally hundreds of NPCs in the direct branches of his
>family tree worked out. He is a business partner in a weapon smithery
>with a second cousin, for example.

One caution: if he put that much work into his family tree, you might want to
sound him out on the subject of messing with the destiny of anybody in that
tree.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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In article <95km41lu03kp1b6iqanpc2f15gahudi8st@4ax.com>,
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>On 30 Mar 2005 19:18:58 GMT, dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca (David Alex Lamb)
>carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> It seems to me it would make sense for a follower of Moradin to use the god's
>> favourite weapon. Even if it is numerically suboptimal.
>
>Only if Moradin was the sort who would approve (or through inaction
>allowed his followers to think that). If Moradin has the practical
>streak that dwarves are generally portrayed as having, he could well
>think you were an idiot.

Prayer time in the dwarven stronghold:
Thorin Stonecrusher: Lord Moradin, grant me success in battle.
Moradin: You'd do better if you traded in that lousy warhammer for a
greataxe.
Thorin: But, but... I picked *your* weapon...
Mordadin: That doesn't change the fact that damage potential is much better
with the greataxe.
Thorin: But, but... Wny do *you* use a warhammer?
Moradin: Ur, umm... That's a secret.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)

 

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"Jeff Goslin" wrote
> "Bradd W. Szonye" wrote
> > The exact total depends on the level of the scrolls and the AC of the
> > bracers. If they're 4th-level spells and AC 8 bracers, that's worth
> > 8,265 gp. If the bracers are AC 6, the total jumps to at least 20,265
gp.
> > In D&D3, a 6th-level character should have about 13,000 gp worth of
> > gear. Unless those bracers are AC 8, your wizard actually has more
> > magical gear than a typical D&D3 character.
>
> Hrm. So explain to me then, how is it that there ALWAYS seems to be an
> abundance of magic when people talk about 3E campaigns? Everyone has +
> weapons and + armor, various potions and scrolls, misc magic, even at low
> levels. At least that's the appearance of things.

Selective memory.


John

 

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<madafro@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:1112315217.992787.215060@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Well, I guess that depends on what you seek in your game.
>
> Or on who you've got at the table. My last group consisted mostly of
[snip]

The problem we had with one player was his constant rules lawyering, it just
didn't fit in well with our group. We don't seek absolute realism or
necessarily strict adherence to the letter of the law when it comes to this.
We're there to have fun, and rules lawyering gets in the way of us having
fun, more often than not. Sometimes it's necessary, but more often than
not, it's just argument for it own sake, at least at our gaming table. Like
most 2E players I've ever played with, we fly by the seat of our pants, and
we like it like that.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in
news:114jjc3lnoa02b8@corp.supernews.com:

> Early on, I
> mistakenly introduced a magic item called 'rage berries', which
> allows the eater to rage the round after eating them.

Have these go bad. The next time he takes one, tell him it tastes
funny, but have it work normally. The time after that, it's poison -
he's nauseous and can't Rage for a day or something.

It does seem to me that you are ignoring the downside of being the
barbarian: you rage and then you're fatigued. So let him lay the
smack down on one bunch of critters and then hit them with the second
wave.

And give the fighter something useful and fun to compensate - say an
intelligent Sword +1, Bane vs Humanoids, Divine Power 3x day, but the
fighter has to follow the sword's dictates to get the bennies.

 

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"John Phillips" <jsphillips1@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:qx13e.494567$w62.265617@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > It seems from a brief search that the term "munchkinism" is often used
to
> > refer to simply "combat without risk". I suppose that could be
> implemented
> > in two ways, either by the DM putting them up against weak encounters,
or
> by
> > handing out too much magic stuff and over-empowering the characters to
> take
> > on better and better stuff.
>
> You still miss the point.

Much as I abhor definitions, I wouldn't mind one right now, since I still
miss the point. You obviously disagree with both my previously understood
definition, and the definition I found online "combat without risk". So
what is munchkinism?

> > If that single huge disadvantage is has been removed, I have to wonder
why
> > ANYONE would play anything BUT a wizard.
>
> Because the other classes are balanced?

I think that's a bit of wishful thinking, but whatever, I suppose.

> > The problem with wizards in 2E is
> > that they tend to die at low levels in rather dramatic fashion. Keeping
> > them alive is the challenge, above anything else. The payoff for this,
> over
> > time, is a very powerful individual at higher levels. Fighters are buff
n
> > tuff at 1st level, wizards are buff and tuff at 10th level.
>
> In 3rd ed, 10th level fighters and 10th level wizards are both buff.

I seem to recall threads that indicate that a high level barbarian vs a high
level wizard was almost no contest(bickering about details aside)...???

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:45:24 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
<autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> For reference, the wizard in our party has one wand of magic missile(3
> charges), 2 scrolls(spells too high for him to cast or transfer to spell
> book), 2 potions(healing and fire resistance), a ring (protection +1) and
> bracers of defense. He's 6th level. He's got the most magic in the party.
> The fighter that hangs around with the party(my character for when I play
> instead of DM), has 20 magical arrows +1, a ring(safety) and a potion of
> extra healing, at 6th level.

So, how many spells of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level does the mage have?


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:
>> For reference, the wizard in our party has one wand of magic missile(3
>> charges), 2 scrolls(spells too high for him to cast or transfer to spell
>> book), 2 potions(healing and fire resistance), a ring (protection +1) and
>> bracers of defense. He's 6th level. He's got the most magic in the party.
>> The fighter that hangs around with the party(my character for when I play
>> instead of DM), has 20 magical arrows +1, a ring(safety) and a potion of
>> extra healing, at 6th level.

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> So, how many spells of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level does the mage have?

Rats, I forgot about that in my assessment! That mage almost certainly
has more magical gear than a D&D3 character.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:ugnn41pd4919jjcd9a29fg28jsmb4du9uq@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:45:24 -0500, "Jeff Goslin"
> <autockr@comcast.net> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
> > For reference, the wizard in our party has one wand of magic missile(3
> > charges), 2 scrolls(spells too high for him to cast or transfer to spell
> > book), 2 potions(healing and fire resistance), a ring (protection +1)
and
> > bracers of defense. He's 6th level. He's got the most magic in the
party.
> > The fighter that hangs around with the party(my character for when I
play
> > instead of DM), has 20 magical arrows +1, a ring(safety) and a potion of
> > extra healing, at 6th level.
>
> So, how many spells of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level does the mage have?

In his spell book? I don't know. Probably somewhere around 10 1st, 5 2nd
and 3 3rd... And most of those are pretty useless, he just copied them
into his spell book "because". In terms of "useful spells", he's only got a
scant few that he regularly uses. Most of the spells were given to him at
level up times, not through the finding of scrolls.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd4no2c.tqj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> >> For reference, the wizard in our party has one wand of magic missile(3
> >> charges), 2 scrolls(spells too high for him to cast or transfer to
spell
> >> book), 2 potions(healing and fire resistance), a ring (protection +1)
and
> >> bracers of defense. He's 6th level. He's got the most magic in the
party.
> >> The fighter that hangs around with the party(my character for when I
play
> >> instead of DM), has 20 magical arrows +1, a ring(safety) and a potion
of
> >> extra healing, at 6th level.
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > So, how many spells of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level does the mage have?
>
> Rats, I forgot about that in my assessment! That mage almost certainly
> has more magical gear than a D&D3 character.

It should be noted that even within our party, the wizard is recognized as
the one with all the magic stuff. Our treasure is basically group treasure,
and whoever can use the magic best is just given it. We only divide out the
treasure into character sized portions to know how much the mystic needs to
have to give to his cloister, and to find out how much the cleric has to
tithe.

It works out for us, overall, even though there are more than a few comments
when we're handing out treasure along the lines of "If nobody else can use
it, I'll take it" sez the wizard, "*AGAIN*???" sez the party "Well, I
uh..." stammers the wizard. Eventually they just give it to him because
they honestly can't think of anything better to do with it(if they decide
not to sell it). Most of the "generically useful but not at the moment"
type stuff goes to the wizard.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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On 31 Mar 2005 06:28:31 GMT, drow <drow@bin.sh> carved upon a tablet
of ether:

> "did you see? the half-orc ate a berry in the third fight which made
> him strong. summon the shaman again, to cast a Hold spell against
> them. we will subdue the adventurers and steal the berries!"

And if the Hold spell goes off as the opener of the ambush, the barb
won't get the +2 Will bonus for rage.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 02:36:06 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 01:08:38 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
> ><bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
> >
> >> Short version: To the anti-fudging camp, the ends do not justify the means.
> >
> > Instead, the means justify the end.
>
> Heh, good one! Not sure whether that's sympathetic or cynical though.

Both, seeing as I'm in the no-fudge camp.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 03:53:50 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> David Serhienko <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote:
> > Seriously, though... having them get stolen feels, to me, like less of
> > a handwave than having magically enchanted berries rot ....
>
> Whereas theft seems hamfisted to me; too many poor DMs use it as an easy
> way out. It's especially annoying when the DM /only/ uses it to get rid
> of unwanted stuff.
>
> Also, remember that you'll need to fiat the items into oblivion, or the
> PC may try to get it back (for revenge, if nothing else). It gets even
> fishier at that point.

I have the answer - a starving urchin steals the berries, and some
other stuff. They'll probably notice, and persue. The urchin rummages
through the stuff as he flees, discarding most of it (so if they want
it back they'll have to slow down and pick it up before someone else
helps themselves). Naturally, being staving, they'll scarf down the
berries. Done!'


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:47:38 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> No kidding. In my last campaign, a troll killed two PCs. One of the PCs
> was trying to go out in a blaze of glory (player moving out of town),
> but the other one was a simple case of weak tactics + troll = dead PC.

IME at levels 4-7 trolls are the major killers of PCs. All it takes is
a round in which a troll gets a full-attack, and there's a good
chance of a deader. It doesn't require bad tactics for this to happen,
either, just 'not perfect' ones (or the troll doing something
unanticipated - grappling and jumping off a height works well).


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:19:50 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Maybe I'm just not thinking of another way, but to me, if one
> > character of the same level as another vastly outstrips all the other
> > characters of that level, the only instance I've ever seen that have
> > been in the case of an over-magicked character or a super-game-
> > mechanics-optimized character. I'm pleased to learn if
> > there are other things that can cause that ....
>
> If you play AD&D, and you've never noticed a character vastly outstrip
> another character of the same level, then you:
>
> 1. Have never seen a fighter and a magic-user in the same party, or
> 2. You're even stupider than I previously believed.

Or mages never, ever get a decent number of spells (or good ones, for
that matter), in Jeff's experience.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."

 

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Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:19:50 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
><bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:
>
>> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > Maybe I'm just not thinking of another way, but to me, if one
>> > character of the same level as another vastly outstrips all the other
>> > characters of that level, the only instance I've ever seen that have
>> > been in the case of an over-magicked character or a super-game-
>> > mechanics-optimized character. I'm pleased to learn if
>> > there are other things that can cause that ....
>>
>> If you play AD&D, and you've never noticed a character vastly outstrip
>> another character of the same level, then you:
>>
>> 1. Have never seen a fighter and a magic-user in the same party, or
>> 2. You're even stupider than I previously believed.
>
> Or mages never, ever get a decent number of spells (or good ones, for
> that matter), in Jeff's experience.

Or his house rules, rules errors, and DM fiat masturbation are so
extensive that his game has sweet FA to do with AD&D as written. Given
his recent comment that AD&D battle-axes are two-handed weapons, I'm
betting on this explanation.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:jhpn41lgclhoklm8gafff3hjhpfi4jtf3o@4ax.com...
> > If you play AD&D, and you've never noticed a character vastly outstrip
> > another character of the same level, then you:
> >
> > 1. Have never seen a fighter and a magic-user in the same party, or
>
> Or mages never, ever get a decent number of spells (or good ones, for
> that matter), in Jeff's experience.

How many is that? How many is "decent". I *know* I avoid giving the wizard
lots of GOOD spells, specifically. I want him to want to spend money buying
scrolls. I've given him enough to be useful, of course, but if there's a
spell he REALLY wants, he's gonna have to spring for it, most likely. He's
got magic missile, acid arrow, fireball, he's got read and detect magic, but
he's also got a whole cadre of what I would personally consider utterly
useless spells(leomunds tiny hut, eg)

What I'll often do is choose 3 spells to give him at level up, write them
down and put them in a hat. He gets one pull. Usually 2 of the 3 are
pretty benign, fairly useless spells, and the last one is actually somewhat
useful, in my opinion.

Actually, something I just forgot: He just leveled to 7th. So that might
change your opinion of his equipment load.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

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David Serhienko wrote:
> John Phillips wrote:
>> "David Serhienko" wrote
>>> Donald Tsang wrote:
>>>
>>>> I suppose it's a little hard to get something with a Move of 80,
>>>> though.
>>>>
>>>> How about opponents who fly?
>>>
>>> OOOO! A Wyvern would be fun! Gotta wait til Mr Wizard is outta his
>>> Direct Damage artillery, though for this to work out =)
>>
>> Not really, just send two.
>
> In a wave =)

Beware that Wyverns are pretty nasty opponents for CR 6, or at
least have been IME; always carrying someone off into the sky and
dropping them when they get fidgety. Not a great many hit points though.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

 

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Jeff Goslin wrote:

> If that single huge disadvantage is has been removed, I have to wonder why
> ANYONE would play anything BUT a wizard.

Because the classes are reasonably well-balanced in 3E?

(I'll refrain from pointing out the silliness in your above statement
given your feelings on the "greatsword=POWERGAMING" issue. Er...oops.
Never mind.)

-Will

 

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On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 11:34:37 GMT, "Bradd W. Szonye"
<bradd+news@szonye.com> carved upon a tablet of ether:

> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> >> For reference, the wizard in our party has one wand of magic missile(3
> >> charges), 2 scrolls(spells too high for him to cast or transfer to spell
> >> book), 2 potions(healing and fire resistance), a ring (protection +1) and
> >> bracers of defense. He's 6th level. He's got the most magic in the party.
> >> The fighter that hangs around with the party(my character for when I play
> >> instead of DM), has 20 magical arrows +1, a ring(safety) and a potion of
> >> extra healing, at 6th level.
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > So, how many spells of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level does the mage have?
>
> Rats, I forgot about that in my assessment! That mage almost certainly
> has more magical gear than a D&D3 character.

Depends. If he has only a few spells, he'll have less value in his
spellbook than is expected - no automatic spells in AD&D2 once you
enter play. Once upon a time I had the dubious privaledge of playing a
mage who went from 4th to 7th level without the opportunity to learn
any spells. Fortunately she was multiclassed, so I got to do some
other stuff, but it was still a waste.


--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Just because the truth will set you free doesn't mean the truth itself
should be free."