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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb wrote:
> In article <1112898633.672828.141710@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> madafro@sbcglobal.net <madafro@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>... It reminds me of one DM I knew that was
>>infamous for the 20th-level wizards who seemed to run every single
>>tavern in his campaign.
>
>
> Sounds like an interesting basis for a conspiracy theory.

<don tin-foil hat>
It's all the same Tavern! It's all the Same Wizard!
</don>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 05:45:40 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
>news:r27951dbsm3gpjro5qg09jhbjfl5hikcko@4ax.com...
>> >Personally I would think that the metagame ability to keep multiple
>players
>> >at the same table would be one of them.
>>
>> Picking on characters because their player doesn't conform to your idea of
>> a good character does not in any way fall into that "metagame ability".
[snip]
>In metagame terms, obviously I also have a chat with the player, letting him
>know that the reasons for his in-game abuse is of his own making, and if he
>doesn't want his character to be abused like that, he should avoid the
>activities that cause it.

Which if the problem then extends into the game (you do have this
conversation BEFORE the game starts, yes?), then you need to work on your
people skills. It should be made clear to this person before the first
pizza is ordered whether or not their style of gaming is going to fit at
your table. It should not be necesary to inflict punishment on their
character for what is manifestly YOUR failure to adequately explain your
expectations.

Although, given that you feel a barbarian wielding a greatsword is
powergaming, it's a miracle that you have any players at all.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:rk4b511uhcarer2gdqvdp7jhmug7p7lkfj@4ax.com...
> >In metagame terms, obviously I also have a chat with the player, letting
him
> >know that the reasons for his in-game abuse is of his own making, and if
he
> >doesn't want his character to be abused like that, he should avoid the
> >activities that cause it.
>
> Which if the problem then extends into the game (you do have this
> conversation BEFORE the game starts, yes?), then you need to work on your
> people skills. It should be made clear to this person before the first
> pizza is ordered whether or not their style of gaming is going to fit at
> your table. It should not be necesary to inflict punishment on their
> character for what is manifestly YOUR failure to adequately explain your
> expectations.

The only time I ever had to implement this option, I did exactly what you
describe. I was giving a player a chance at playing our game who I didn't
know, he was a friend of one of the players. I described our game VERY
clearly, what was acceptable, what wasn't, what to expect from me and the
other players, and what we expected of him in return.

He wanted to play a paladin, which was the first sign of trouble. I have
*never* run into a player who I thought actually played a paladin well.
Their alignment restrictions are almost never followed strictly enough,
meaning that the paladin is little more than a fighter on massive steroids.
However, he assured me to no end that he could role play the character well
enough, so I relented from my previous decision not to allow player
character paladins. Sure enough, within one session, he had abandoned the
guidelines of how I expected a paladin to be played in our campaign in
almost every way. I warned him that the in-game punishments were coming if
he didn't change, not once, but twice. Then I hit him with them, and he got
pissed. There's only so much I can do to telegraph this sort of stuff.

> Although, given that you feel a barbarian wielding a greatsword is
> powergaming, it's a miracle that you have any players at all.

I thank you for oversimplifying my stand on the issue. It's not that a
barbarian is wielding a greatsword, it's the combination of all sorts of
factors, one of which is the decision to choose a weapon based on damage
potential, not character.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:02 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
scribed into the ether:

>
>"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Q_qdnboexMnjxcjfRVn-tw@comcast.com...
>
>>
>> So, some Epic-level pickpocket just happened to be working the crowd that
>> day? Horseshit.
>
>
>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?

They do, but not on level 5 nobodies. Epic level pickpockets pick epic
level pockets. An undefensible pickpocket stealing something that is
unbalancing for the party just reeks of DM chicanery and poor gaming
skills.

>That's like saying it's unrealistic for a 20th level fighter to attack a
>single kobold. It's just bad luck for the kobold to be in his way.

No, it would be like the level 1 party being attacked by a Great Red Wyrm
because someone got lucky in his stat die rolls on creation and has 3 or 4
stats in the 16+ range.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:2t4b51d8e5oggndj1gc282jj4l4v7kfk3n@4ax.com...
> >That's like saying it's unrealistic for a 20th level fighter to attack a
> >single kobold. It's just bad luck for the kobold to be in his way.
>
> No, it would be like the level 1 party being attacked by a Great Red Wyrm
> because someone got lucky in his stat die rolls on creation and has 3 or 4
> stats in the 16+ range.

That's not the case, though. I don't target characters for simply getting
lucky. I target them for continued and deliberate power gaming, min/maxing
and munchkinism, and I let them know WHY they have been targetted. I
haven't had to do it often, thankfully.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:02 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
> scribed into the ether:
>
>>"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:Q_qdnboexMnjxcjfRVn-tw@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> So, some Epic-level pickpocket just happened to be working the crowd that
>>> day? Horseshit.
>>
>>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?
>
> They do, but not on level 5 nobodies. Epic level pickpockets pick epic
> level pockets. An undefensible pickpocket stealing something that is
> unbalancing for the party just reeks of DM chicanery and poor gaming
> skills.

Indeed. An epic character should be doing *epic things*.

Practically speaking, picking pockets in the marketplace is way, *way*
too inefficient for getting money. From a financial perspective (I'm
certainly not suggesting he's epic) Bill Gates wouldn't be panhandling.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrnd5b5h1.8l2.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Matt Frisch <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:02 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
>> scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>"Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:Q_qdnboexMnjxcjfRVn-tw@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> So, some Epic-level pickpocket just happened to be working the crowd
>>>> that
>>>> day? Horseshit.
>>>
>>>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?
>>
>> They do, but not on level 5 nobodies. Epic level pickpockets pick epic
>> level pockets. An undefensible pickpocket stealing something that is
>> unbalancing for the party just reeks of DM chicanery and poor gaming
>> skills.
>
> Indeed. An epic character should be doing *epic things*.
>
> Practically speaking, picking pockets in the marketplace is way, *way*
> too inefficient for getting money. From a financial perspective (I'm
> certainly not suggesting he's epic) Bill Gates wouldn't be panhandling.

From a financial perspective, Bill Gates *is* Epic. He *is* #1, after all.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:114mmmo3o0onja4@corp.supernews.com...
> John Phillips wrote:
>> "David Serhienko" wrote
>>
>>>I've tried to deisgn scenarios to highlight the Ranger's outdoor skills,
>>>and that helps, but for the life of me, I can't imagine how to make the
>>>Human Fighter feel useful, when standing anywhere near the Barbarian.
>>>
>>>They are both designed to get in there and 'mix it up', but the
>>>Barbarian has Rage, Higher hit points, etc.
>>>
>>>Any ideas on how I can design a scenario or two to move the spotlight
>>>off the barb onto the fighter?
>>
>>
>> Its hard to say anything exact not know what feats the fighter has, but
>> play
>> to his strengths. One thing the fighter can do is wear heavy armor, so
>> let
>> him. Maybe throw in a nice suit of magic plate and a shield and let him
>> become an AC machine.
>
> For that matter, just throw in a Master Work matched set of plate and
> shield. It'd be better than the chain shirt he uses now,

If he is using a chain shirt, he should *definitely* be going the "mobility
fighter" route.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
>>> I'm curious, then. What attributes combine to make a good GM, in
>>> your estimation?

MI wrote:
>> Well, there is creativity, the ability to be engaging, a good grasp
>> of the system, maturity and evenhandedness in handling disputes, an
>> understanding of what makes the game fun for the group, and the
>> ability to balance all these things while running.

> All attributes I possess.

Yeah, right.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

MI wrote:
>> First of all, how exactly is this min/maxing? Secondly, how exactly
>> is this power gaming?

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> First of all, because of the dramatic overpowering of the barbarian
> character as compared to the others. Player knowledge, skill at the
> system, or just plain blind luck, it is obviously a case of
> min/maxing, regardless of the intent of the player ....

First, blind luck is not min-maxing, which is the deliberate use of a
specific technique. Likewise, blind luck is not power-gaming, which is
all about intent. Second, you seem unable to tell the difference between
sensible character design and min-maxing. Finally, you completely ignore
the fact that relative imbalances also occur when the other players make
poor characters, not just when one player makes optimized characters.

> Secondly, it's power gaming, because we actually *DO* know the
> player's intent, from the words of his own DM.

I don't recall seeing that message. Furthermore, we also know that the
fighter PC struggles partly because that player made poor decisions.
Likewise, those of us with actual D&D3 experience know that the
barbarian character is not out of bounds for a D&D3 PC. The problem here
is that two players chose a very similar niche, and one of them did a
poor job designing a character to fit that niche. End result: That
player ends up overshadowed.

It's not like this kind of problem is unique to D&D3, or even to
Dungeons & Dragons. It happens in many game systems, and any expert DM,
as you claim to be, should recognize the actual root cause rather than
spouting nonsense about min-maxing.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5bab6.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> It's not like this kind of problem is unique to D&D3, or even to
> Dungeons & Dragons. It happens in many game systems, and any expert DM,
> as you claim to be, should recognize the actual root cause rather than
> spouting nonsense about min-maxing.

I've been around the block a time or two, and I've "been there and done
that". The only time a problem like this crops up that is worth mentioning,
in every instance, power gaming of some variety or another has been the root
cause. I'm just calling em like I see em. Sure, the player may not
specifically be stating it, nor the DM in question complaining about this,
but I've never had a case of "pure blind luck" cause a character to so
totally overshadow another as to be worthy of noting. It's only *EVER* been
a case of powergaming, so I have to say that I am comfortable in calling "a
spade" a spade. Is it possible I'm wrong, sure, I haven't seen it all, but
let's just say I'm playing the odds.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> Obviously, that's the first step. I wouldn't just rule zero them away
> without some explanation. I would tell the player "look, I screwed up, I
> thought these would be spread around, but you are the one getting all of
> them, and it overpowers your character, and it's not so much fun for
> everyone else, blah blah, so <implement idea here, any of a bunch of
> possible solutions>"

Yeah, right. We might believe you if all of your other articles and DM
"advice" didn't call you out as a petty tyrant.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5baej.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > Obviously, that's the first step. I wouldn't just rule zero them away
> > without some explanation. I would tell the player "look, I screwed up,
I
> > thought these would be spread around, but you are the one getting all of
> > them, and it overpowers your character, and it's not so much fun for
> > everyone else, blah blah, so <implement idea here, any of a bunch of
> > possible solutions>"
>
> Yeah, right. We might believe you if all of your other articles and DM
> "advice" didn't call you out as a petty tyrant.

While my style obviously differs from many here, I'm *not* a petty tyrant.
I may use some "hamfisted" approaches to accomplishing the goals our group
has, but they work for us, and I don't do it for my own sick twisted
demented pleasure.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
>>> It's not *MY* idea, it's *OUR* idea. We, as a group, do not like
>>> power gamers, rules lawyers, munchkins or any of the breeds of
>>> irritating gamers at our table ....

Bradd wrote:
>> You forgot "shameless meta-gamers."

> Well, since the reference was to *OUR* group, I did not include that
> because it's not something we find irritating. I'm sure a list of
> irritating gamer traits at YOUR table would include such an option.

I don't mind meta-gaming myself. It was a common practice in my AD&D
days, and there's still a fair amount of it in my current game. I just
find it laughable that you brag about your mad RP skills and then (as
usual) contradict yourself by admitting to blatant meta-gaming.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5bajh.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> I don't mind meta-gaming myself. It was a common practice in my AD&D
> days, and there's still a fair amount of it in my current game. I just
> find it laughable that you brag about your mad RP skills and then (as
> usual) contradict yourself by admitting to blatant meta-gaming.

I make a distinction between what you would refer to as "roleplaying"(which
is defined in my world as playing a role playing game) and what you would
refer to as "play acting"(which is translates to what I call "role playing",
the act of playing a role). I thought you had realized that by now. The
players I play with are just FINE at role playing, "play acting", but they
admittedly go into meta-game information more than most people you would
probably want to play with. For us, it works fine.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> I don't target characters for simply getting lucky. I target them for
> continued and deliberate power gaming, min/maxing and munchkinism, and
> I let them know WHY they have been targetted ....

Bah, you don't even know what those things are.

> I haven't had to do it often, thankfully.

Fish aren't very talkative, are they?
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> He wanted to play a paladin, which was the first sign of trouble. I
> have *never* run into a player who I thought actually played a paladin
> well. Their alignment restrictions are almost never followed strictly
> enough ....

Ah, so you're THAT sort of stupid DM as well.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5banh.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> > He wanted to play a paladin, which was the first sign of trouble. I
> > have *never* run into a player who I thought actually played a paladin
> > well. Their alignment restrictions are almost never followed strictly
> > enough ....
>
> Ah, so you're THAT sort of stupid DM as well.

I've played too many games where paladins were not played according to their
alignment restrictions, making them simply beefed up fighters with some
special abilities. Every time I've played in a game with a paladin, their
role playing restrictions were essentially ignored when it was inconvenient
for the character. That means that their one big restriction, the alignment
issue, is reduced to a mere formality, while they are overpowered compared
to other characters.

I'd be happy to find a player who could prove to be the exception to the
rule, but let's just say I'm not holding my breath. I assume from your
snide remark that you know of plenty of such players, and if that's the
case, I'd say you're lucky to have found them, because they are, in my
experience, a rare breed.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnd5b5h1.8l2.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>>
>> Practically speaking, picking pockets in the marketplace is way, *way*
>> too inefficient for getting money. From a financial perspective (I'm
>> certainly not suggesting he's epic) Bill Gates wouldn't be panhandling.
>
> From a financial perspective, Bill Gates *is* Epic. He *is* #1, after
> all.

Financial, sure. Combat-wise -- and D&D is combat-centric -- not even
close.


Keith
--
Keith Davies "English is not a language. English is a
keith.davies@kjdavies.org bad habit shared between Norman invaders
keith.davies@gmail.com and Saxon barmaids!"
http://www.kjdavies.org/ -- Frog, IRC, 2005/01/13
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrnd5bbc4.8l2.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
> Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Keith Davies" <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote in message
>> news:slrnd5b5h1.8l2.keith.davies@kjdavies.org...
>>>
>>> Practically speaking, picking pockets in the marketplace is way, *way*
>>> too inefficient for getting money. From a financial perspective (I'm
>>> certainly not suggesting he's epic) Bill Gates wouldn't be panhandling.
>>
>> From a financial perspective, Bill Gates *is* Epic. He *is* #1, after
>> all.
>
> Financial, sure.

Well, that is all the analogy requires.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <Du-dnXe5NNgMMMjfRVn-vw@comcast.com>,
Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnd5bajh.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> I don't mind meta-gaming myself.
>[snip]
>... For us, it works fine.

You know, those last couple of exchanges were actually civil.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

In article <slrnd5bamb.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>> I haven't had to do it often, thankfully.
>
>Fish aren't very talkative, are they?

We have more than one fish muncher?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> It's not like this kind of problem is unique to D&D3, or even to
>> Dungeons & Dragons. It happens in many game systems, and any expert DM,
>> as you claim to be, should recognize the actual root cause rather than
>> spouting nonsense about min-maxing.

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> I've been around the block a time or two, and I've "been there and
> done that". The only time a problem like this crops up that is worth
> mentioning, in every instance, power gaming of some variety or another
> has been the root cause. I'm just calling em like I see em ....

Then you need to get out more. Or at least pay attention -- the
overshadowing in this case is clearly because the weaker character is
gimped, not because the stronger character is min-maxed.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5bcel.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > I've been around the block a time or two, and I've "been there and
> > done that". The only time a problem like this crops up that is worth
> > mentioning, in every instance, power gaming of some variety or another
> > has been the root cause. I'm just calling em like I see em ....
>
> Then you need to get out more. Or at least pay attention -- the
> overshadowing in this case is clearly because the weaker character is
> gimped, not because the stronger character is min-maxed.

Actually, it's probably simply more pronounced because the other fighter has
a very weak build. But if that were simply the case, if it were simply that
a player had a simpering fighter, and the barbarian was just fine, we'd be
solving the problem of the gimpy fighter, rather than the overpowered
barbarian, now wouldn't we? The primary problem brought forth was NOT one
of an underpowered character missing the spotlight, but rather one of an
OVERpowered character HOGGING the spotlight. And by the original poster's
own words, the barbarian overshadows LITERALLY the entire party, it's not
just the weak-built fighter.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right