PCs out of Balance - Need some Help

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> I make a distinction between what you would refer to as
> "roleplaying"(which is defined in my world as playing a role playing
> game) and what you would refer to as "play acting"(which is translates
> to what I call "role playing", the act of playing a role). I thought
> you had realized that by now ....

Sorry, I don't particularly care how you redefine words. If you want to
talk to other people, learn the language.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Ah, so you're THAT sort of stupid DM as well.

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> I've played too many games where paladins were not played according to
> their alignment restrictions, making them simply beefed up fighters
> with some special abilities ....

Like I said, you're THAT sort of stupid DM.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> Here ya go, here's a screwdriver, might want to tweak that sense of humor.

It would help a lot if you were actually funny.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> [The] overshadowing in this case is clearly because the weaker
>> character is gimped, not because the stronger character is min-maxed.

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> Actually, it's probably simply more pronounced because the other
> fighter has a very weak build. But if that were simply the case, if
> it were simply that a player had a simpering fighter, and the
> barbarian was just fine, we'd be solving the problem of the gimpy
> fighter, rather than the overpowered barbarian, now wouldn't we?

If you were paying attention, you'd have already noticed that the smart
DMs (including the original poster) have suggested doing exactly that.

> The primary problem brought forth was NOT one of an underpowered
> character missing the spotlight, but rather one of an OVERpowered
> character HOGGING the spotlight ....

That simply isn't true. From the original article by David S.:

The Player of our 5th Level Human Fighter, using a longsword and
shield in good armor seems hopelessly inadequate when compared to
our 5th level Half-Orc barbarian, using a Great Sword and middling
armor. I need ideas that will move the spotlight off the barbarian
whenever combat happens and onto the fighter for a while, so he has
a chance to shine.

This merely states a relative imbalance, with no mention that the
barbarian is actually hogging the spotlight. Furthermore:

I am tempted to consider this a munchkin problem, but then again,
the only thing the player has done is go for the Great Sword, and,
really, wouldn't any self-respecting barbarian?

This clearly states that the barbarian player was not min-maxing, but
merely playing a barbarian in classic Conan style. In short, you have
blatantly misstated the original complaint -- as usual.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

David Alex Lamb <dalamb@qucis.queensu.ca> wrote:
> In article <slrnd5bamb.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com>,
> Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
>>Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> I haven't had to do it often, thankfully.
>>
>>Fish aren't very talkative, are they?
>
> We have more than one fish muncher?

Unless Goslin's a sockpuppet.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Nockermensch" <nockermensch@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1112926294.516120.147300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> > Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > >>> I'm curious, then. What attributes combine to make a good GM, in
> > >>> your estimation?
> >
> > MI wrote:
> > >> Well, there is creativity, the ability to be engaging, a good
> grasp
> > >> of the system, maturity and evenhandedness in handling disputes,
> an
> > >> understanding of what makes the game fun for the group, and the
> > >> ability to balance all these things while running.
> >
> > > All attributes I possess.
> >
> > Yeah, right.
>
> He also flies and shoots eye-beams.

*AND*... he's moist!

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:42:54 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
wrote:


>> Although, given that you feel a barbarian wielding a greatsword is
>> powergaming, it's a miracle that you have any players at all.
>
>I thank you for oversimplifying my stand on the issue. It's not that a
>barbarian is wielding a greatsword, it's the combination of all sorts of
>factors, one of which is the decision to choose a weapon based on damage
>potential, not character.
>

Uh-hunh. You don't suppose that he could have picked a greatsword for
his barbarian just because that's what pretty much every Conan
wanna-be packs?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Johnston" <rgorman@telusplanet.net> wrote in message
news:4255703e.436476598@news.telusplanet.net...
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 17:42:54 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
> >I thank you for oversimplifying my stand on the issue. It's not that a
> >barbarian is wielding a greatsword, it's the combination of all sorts of
> >factors, one of which is the decision to choose a weapon based on damage
> >potential, not character.
> >
>
> Uh-hunh. You don't suppose that he could have picked a greatsword for
> his barbarian just because that's what pretty much every Conan
> wanna-be packs?

Absolutely, but then it wouldn't be about the damage potential, now would
it? No, very clearly the player in question has a very clear vision of what
his character's upgrade path and mechanical abilities should be like, with
very little regard to the actual character in question, and as much was
aluded to by the DM in question.

It's fine to question my interpretation of what the original poster had
said, and even though he hasn't actually come out and said that it's a clear
case of power gaming(as I believe it to be), he has laid out all the
telltale signs like a roadmap to that conclusion: A player of many years of
video game and D&D playing experience picks what could arguably be
considered the most powerful form of fighter, then methodically and without
apparant regard for the character of the PC, proceeds to build an
uber-fighter, albeit fully within the rules. I don't know about you, but my
interpretation of that chain of events is pretty clearly heavily weighted
towards a power gamer. Yes, it's an interpretation, possibly even a faulty
one, but it's a logical conclusion to draw, given the evidence.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> From a financial perspective, Bill Gates *is* Epic. He *is* #1, after
>> all.
>
>Financial, sure. Combat-wise -- and D&D is combat-centric -- not even
>close.

How do we know that? For all we know, he could have a secret lair
and a cave over there under Lake Washington, and go out in cape&cowl
and beat up bad-guys in Bellevue Square at night! He could have
studied Martial Arts with some of the best instructors in the Pacific
Northwest, if not the World. Ten levels of the Vigilante PrC...
no, wait, he's Epic! He might have *twelve* levels of Vigilante!

Heh.

Donald
("We are the Geeks of Factoria!" -- "Eastside Story", Almost Live!)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Donald Tsang" <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote in message
news:d34ims$1r7u$1@agate.berkeley.edu...
> >Financial, sure. Combat-wise -- and D&D is combat-centric -- not even
> >close.
>
> How do we know that? For all we know, he could have a secret lair
> and a cave over there under Lake Washington, and go out in cape&cowl
> and beat up bad-guys in Bellevue Square at night! He could have
> studied Martial Arts with some of the best instructors in the Pacific
> Northwest, if not the World. Ten levels of the Vigilante PrC...
> no, wait, he's Epic! He might have *twelve* levels of Vigilante!

He stalks the night, beating ne'erdogooders(jocks n such) about the head
with his epic weapon of choice, a leather wallet +100000000000000...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Donald Tsang <tsang@soda.csua.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>>> From a financial perspective, Bill Gates *is* Epic. He *is* #1, after
>>> all.
>>
>>Financial, sure. Combat-wise -- and D&D is combat-centric -- not even
>>close.

> How do we know that?

Pie in face.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Suddenly, Bradd W. Szonye, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness
and exclaimed:

>> How do we know that?
>
> Pie in face.
>

Simple use of his high-ranking bluff skill. He didn't want to compromise
his secret identity.

--
Billy Yank

Quinn: "I'm saying it us, or them."
Murphy: "Well I choose them."
Q: "That's NOT an option!"
M: "Then you shouldn't have framed it as one."
-Sealab 2021

Billy Yank's Baldur's Gate Photo Portraits
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2xvw6/
 
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Billy Yank <billyUSCOREyank@verizonDOT.net> wrote:
> Suddenly, Bradd W. Szonye, drunk as a lemur, stumbled out of the darkness
> and exclaimed:
>
>>> How do we know that?
>>
>> Pie in face.
>
> Simple use of his high-ranking bluff skill. He didn't want to compromise
> his secret identity.

Touche!
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 10:51:02 -0700, "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com>
> scribed into the ether:
>
>>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?
>
> They do, but not on level 5 nobodies.

To steal small pieces of fruit from them, no less.

-Will
 
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Will Green <will_j_green@yXaXhXoXoX.com> wrote:
>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> "Shawn Wilson" <Ikonoqlast@yahoo.com> scribed into the ether:
>>>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?
>>
>> They do, but not on level 5 nobodies.
>
>To steal small pieces of fruit from them, no less.

I'm sure they're actually stealing *everything* from the nobodies, and
replacing it with exact duplicates...

(with apologies to Stephen Wright)

Donald
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> Eh, I wonder whether they're actually causing an imbalance. Do they
>> cause any problems beyond the barb/fighter overshadowing?

David Serhienko wrote:
> Well, yeah, because I can't really challenge the entire party evenly
> in a combat situation. Since he can rage more often than the game
> assumes he should be, any combat which challenges him fairly is a bit
> too tough for everyone else.

First, I doubt that he is raging more than the game assumes he should
be. Until he has more than four uses per day, I'd expect him to burn
through all of them. In fact, I'm surprised that he hasn't used up all
of the berries already too, unless you're running much less than the
"standard" four encounters per day.

Of course, that isn't entirely up to you; if you've got conservative
players, they may be resting a lot more often than the game assumes.
That increases the power of "alpha strike" classes like the barbarian
and the wizard. Encourage them to take on more challenges per day,
perhaps by putting on some time pressure.

More importantly, it isn't necessary to "challenge" the barbarian. I
presume you're referring to the game balance principle that says a
credible threat for one PC should be reasonable for the other PCs. I've
run into that kind of trouble myself. However, the D&D3 adventure design
principles greatly deemphasize that principle, mainly because it rejects
the idea that players should regularly face credible threats. In fact,
D&D3 doesn't work very well if you try to challenge the PCs with
credible threats too often: It favors the alpha-strike classes, plus it
can screw up PC wealth levels.

I would recomend trying a larger number of weak encounters. Over time,
that does a better job of exercising a party's capabilities, and it can
actually result in a credible threat to folks like barbarians, once
they're worn down a bit.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

>>Do you think people with Epic level pickpocketing skill never use it?
>
> They do, but not on level 5 nobodies.


Why not? Just because it's easy doesn't mean they'll refuse to do it.




> Epic level pickpockets pick epic
> level pockets.



Your 20th level fighter wouldn't EVER attack a lone kobold? There's nothing
unrealistic about massively unbalanced match-ups.




An undefensible pickpocket stealing something that is
> unbalancing for the party just reeks of DM chicanery and poor gaming
> skills.



From a story telling perspective it's a weak solution certainly. Easier to
just throw more fights at him until the berries are used up. Or have the
bad guys RUN from the 7' tall raging Half-Orc Barbarian and come back when
the rage has worn off.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> That said, it is a good idea to avoid the impulse for handing out
>> cool toys.

Malachias Invictus <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Or, rather, think through the implications of said "cool toys".

Easier said than done!
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:M5J4e.1283$lP1.1100@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...

> 3.5 is schitzophrenic about what warhammers look like, but *real*
> warhammers should weigh less than batlte axes; the weapons are shorter and
> the business ends are rather a lot more compact.

Indeed. As I recall, they were effective can-openers.

--
^v^v^Malachias Invictus^v^v^

It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishment the scroll,
I am the Master of my fate:
I am the Captain of my soul.

from _Invictus_, by William Ernest Henley
 
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"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:77CdnVovtYV7dsjfRVn-pw@comcast.com...
> > Uh-hunh. You don't suppose that he could have picked a greatsword for
> > his barbarian just because that's what pretty much every Conan
> > wanna-be packs?
>
> Absolutely, but then it wouldn't be about the damage potential, now would
> it? No, very clearly the player in question has a very clear vision of
what
> his character's upgrade path and mechanical abilities should be like, with
> very little regard to the actual character in question, and as much was
> aluded to by the DM in question.

Look at Goslin go! He has once again *assumed*, due to his own personal
delusional biases, that having a clear vision of mechanical capabilities
somehow precludes having any regard for the "actual character".

This boy really is some kind of Aspie sod, isn't he?

> It's fine to question my interpretation of what the original poster had
> said,

Given that your interpretation assumes facts not in evidence and is
blatantly incorrect, that's rather obvious, fatass.

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:mIydnSaVaeA1NMjfRVn-3A@comcast.com...
> I thank you for oversimplifying my stand on the issue. It's not that a
> barbarian is wielding a greatsword, it's the combination of all sorts of
> factors, one of which is the decision to choose a weapon based on damage
> potential, not character.

<raises hand> Don't professional fighters tend to choose weapons
according to damage potential? Isn't choosing to be good at fighting,
therefore VERY MUCH IN CHARACTER?

<shakes head sadly>

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:tlo5e.2606$lP1.2331@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > Absolutely, but then it wouldn't be about the damage potential, now
would
> > it? No, very clearly the player in question has a very clear vision of
> what
> > his character's upgrade path and mechanical abilities should be like,
with
> > very little regard to the actual character in question, and as much was
> > aluded to by the DM in question.
>
> Look at Goslin go! He has once again *assumed*, due to his own
personal
> delusional biases, that having a clear vision of mechanical capabilities
> somehow precludes having any regard for the "actual character".

I don't suppose you actually read the post where the DM in question went
down the list of problems point for point and confirmed my assumptions to be
accurate. You must have missed that, I guess.

> > It's fine to question my interpretation of what the original poster had
> > said,
>
> Given that your interpretation assumes facts not in evidence and is
> blatantly incorrect, that's rather obvious, fatass.

Not so much, actually. Not to put to fine a point on it, but the DM in
question confirmed every assumption I made.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5b9so.ccj.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> >>> I'm curious, then. What attributes combine to make a good GM, in
> >>> your estimation?
>
> MI wrote:
> >> Well, there is creativity, the ability to be engaging, a good grasp
> >> of the system, maturity and evenhandedness in handling disputes, an
> >> understanding of what makes the game fun for the group, and the
> >> ability to balance all these things while running.
>
> > All attributes I possess.
>
> Yeah, right.

See previous commentary about delusion.

-Michael
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" wrote
> "David Johnston" wrote
> >"Jeff Goslin" wrote
> > >I thank you for oversimplifying my stand on the issue. It's not that a
> > >barbarian is wielding a greatsword, it's the combination of all sorts
of
> > >factors, one of which is the decision to choose a weapon based on
damage
> > >potential, not character.
> > >
> >
> > Uh-hunh. You don't suppose that he could have picked a greatsword for
> > his barbarian just because that's what pretty much every Conan
> > wanna-be packs?
>
> Absolutely, but then it wouldn't be about the damage potential, now would
> it?

Because no one would EVER pick a weapon based on how much damage it could
do.

> No, very clearly the player in question has a very clear vision of what
> his character's upgrade path and mechanical abilities should be like, with
> very little regard to the actual character in question, and as much was
> aluded to by the DM in question.

Because no one would EVER have a plan for their future.

> It's fine to question my interpretation of what the original poster had
> said, and even though he hasn't actually come out and said that it's a
clear
> case of power gaming(as I believe it to be),

Which in it self is clear proof that its not.

> he has laid out all the
> telltale signs like a roadmap to that conclusion: A player of many years
of
> video game and D&D playing experience picks what could arguably be
> considered the most powerful form of fighter,

Only if argued to an idiot.

> then methodically and without
> apparant regard for the character of the PC, proceeds to build an
> uber-fighter, albeit fully within the rules.

Because no one could ever plan to be a uber fighter. Why, the thought of
someone who fights for a living making plans on how to be a highly
successful fighter is ridiculous!

>I don't know about you, but my
> interpretation of that chain of events is pretty clearly heavily weighted
> towards a power gamer. Yes, it's an interpretation, possibly even a
faulty
> one, but it's a logical conclusion to draw, given the evidence.

You say power gamer like its a bad thing.


John
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Malachias Invictus" <capt_malachias@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:rcOdncC5ruga0cvfRVn-1w@comcast.com...
>
>>>meaning that the paladin is little more than a fighter on massive
>>>steroids.
>>>However, he assured me to no end that he could role play the character
>>>well
>>>enough, so I relented from my previous decision not to allow player
>>>character paladins. Sure enough, within one session, he had abandoned
>
> the
>
>>>guidelines of how I expected a paladin to be played in our campaign in
>>>almost every way.
>>
>>...which are *what*, exactly?
>
>
> In a nutshell, he was a champion of good, always did the right thing, never
> did the morally wrong thing(either by action or omission of action), and
> tried to defeat evil whenever realistically possible. I didn't expect him
> to start taking on demons and devils single handedly, but I *DID* expect him
> to prevent the party from mercilessly interrogating (via torture) a
> prisoner, I expected him to prevent the unnecessary slaughter of captured
> prisoners by party members, I expected him to never lie. These are not
> unreasonable expectations of a paladin.

Turning a blind eye to torture and slaughter of prisoners... That's not
even garden variety Lawful Good, let alone the standard to which a
paladin should be held.

The only way I could see such a "Paladin" retaining his or her powers is
if those powers come from a deity/power source that has woefully below
average omniscience in regard to its followers.

>>A character who is a trained warrior and is expecting life-threatening
>>danger would pick the weapons that were the most effective in combat,
>
> unless
>
>>he was either stupid, culture-bound, or had some other weird reason.
>
>
> I have to wonder exactly how short the weapon list is in your campaign.
> Nobody picks anything but EXACTLY the most effective weapon, metagame
> mechanics wise, huh?

I don't think metagame thinking has anything to do with it. Even in
real-life, people struggled to find the most effective weapons for a
required task and fighting style. Now, they didn't have a big
stat-block like a player does, but they knew if their fighting style
requires a big, heavy weapon, they should be using a big-ass sword or
ax. If they need something they can hide easily, they'd know a dagger
would be appropriate. If they needed something a bit more versatile, a
standard long sword would do.

Unfortunately, D&D doesn't explicitly model many of the real-life
factors that went into deciding whether or not to use a weapon. This is
particularly true in the case of all those specialized pole arms. So
D&D players a left to measure effectiveness based almost solely on
damage, weapon size, and weapon reach.

- Tialan