Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (
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"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news:2hap51lbrgtss6c6hf91fk7v551nmrrrse@4ax.com...
> >> Jeff is suggesting just removing the items outright, which is not a
> >> metagame solution.
> >
> >Of course it is.
>
> If you can't even tell the difference between game and metagame, I'd
> suggest a rapid exit from the newsgroup where you clearly have no
business.
In this situation, there is NO in game problem, at all. The characters have
some rage berries, and I'm sure THEY are quite happy to have them. In this
situation, the metagame is where the problem lay, the players have a natural
tendancy to compare characters(like most players do), and one is
overshadowing the rest, and the CAUSE of this inter-player difficulty stems
partially from the existance of those rage berries, something in the game.
This is a problem whos effects are felt at the metagame level, NOT a problem
of the game, even though the cause of the problem lay within the game.
> > There is no logical/rational/non-hamfisted explanation
>
> There have been many, just none given by you.
Name them. Name the ones that are to be considered "non-hamfisted". Rage
berries that hatch into ragemonsters and wipe out a town? HAMFISTED. Cool,
but hamfisted. Street urchin steals them, eats them and goes on a rampage?
HAMFISTED, cool, but hamfisted. Rule Zero, hamfisted, berries go rotten,
hamfisted, theft by epic thief, hamfisted, berries simply no longer work,
hamfisted.
You seem to be of the mistaken viewpoint that I think that hamfisted ideas
like what have been presented are automatically unworthy simply because they
are hamfisted. I'm fully willing to use hamfisted ideas if they are cool,
like some of the ideas presented, but that doesn't make them any less
hamfisted. ANY idea that removes these berries from play expeditiously
without actually using them in the manner for which they were intended is
going to be hamfisted, awkward and pretty contrived. Any idea that actually
uses the berries in the manner in which they were intended is not going to
work quickly enough(because of the sense of conservation that the characters
have).
> >You're drawing a line of distinction that is impossible to draw.
>
> Maybe impossible for you to draw. Nobody else I can think of has any
> trouble distinguishing between problems with the players and problems with
> the characters. Of course, given how you "role play", I shouldn't be
> surprised.
The game is causing a metagame problem. The only way to deal with it is to
deal with the CAUSE, and that is found IN THE GAME. What are you going to
do to solve the problem from the metagame perspective? Talk to the players,
get them to ignore the fact that the barbarian has a ready supply of rages
on his belt which is contributing to a severe imbalance of power between the
characters? Or are you going to at least get rid of the berries? If you
get rid of the berries, you've just used game mechanics to solve a metagame
problem.
> >Personally, I think it's a good idea, but it is nonetheless hamfisted,
> >awkward, inelegant and kludgy, from most perspectives.
>
> Bullshit. It's a great solution in many ways. You are really not in the
> position to determine what is and is not hamfisted.
Really. Hamfisted, meaning awkward, socially inept, etc etc...
It *IS* a great solution, but that doesn't negate the fact that it is an
awkward, contrived, clumsy and kludgy solution. It would be different if it
were telegraphed in some minor way, like when they got the berries
identified that they were actually not berries but tiny ragemonster eggs
that might one day sprout into ragemonsters. But it hasn't so much as been
hinted at.
The solution is about as graceful as the the plot of Night of the Living
Dead. Why are the zombies there? Who knows, who cares, but they are there,
and they are pissed. If you looked up "hamfisted" in a film school
dictionary, there would be a copy of that movie. This is pretty much the
exact same thing.
"The berries did WHAT?"
"They sprouted some ragemonster thingys, they are destroying the town as we
speak"
"Berries...? Berries that... wait... they were berries, weren't they?"
"Weeeeeelllllll, you *thought* they were berries..."
"They tasted like berries when I ate em, right?"
"Errr... uh... yeah..."
"And they looked like berries?"
"Yep"
"And the guy we got em from said they were berries?"
"Yep"
"But they are ragemonster eggs that people call 'berries'..."
"Uh... yeah..."
"Right... ok then... whatever you say, Mr DM"
Can you see how this is hamfisted yet? It's COOL, I think, but nonetheless
hamfisted
> > it's going to be
> >quite obviously percieved for what it is, a cooked up kludge to rid the
> >party of the rest of their ex-berries now eggs of doom.
>
> Who said anything about "of doom"? They need not hatch into the Tarrasque
> to be an interesting event. Hell, you could milk it even further by having
> the hatching take place while the characters are downstairs having a drink
> in the pub, return to their room, and find a bunch of broken egg shells
> with some trails of slime leading off.
However the implementation, the basic story itself is KLUDGY, AWKWARD AND
*HAMFISTED*. Berries that aren't berries all of a sudden? Nothing to ever
indicate they were anything but berries, and all of a sudden they've hatched
into who knows what? See my narrative above...
--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right
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