PCs out of Balance - Need some Help

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
news:5mhs51d02pnkrppses8o4888hcbg8uatoj@4ax.com...
> That aside, you're claiming it's hamfisted of nature if I hand you an
> egg and tell you it's a rock, and you believe me, and then it hatches
> into a chicken.

Let's just say that any observant individual could easily detect what's
going on. See the embryo, etc. But if they look like berries, taste like
berries, well, they must be berries.

The PC's would undoubtedly have some frame of reference for determining what
is a berry and what is an egg, even relatively obscure and unknown eggs
would have something in common with each other.

The hamfistedness doesn't stem from something being incorrectly identified,
berry or egg, it stems from nothing foreshadowing it's miraculous
transformation. One day you've got berries, the next, you've got a clutch
of critters to deal with...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote in message
> news:5mhs51d02pnkrppses8o4888hcbg8uatoj@4ax.com...
>
>>That aside, you're claiming it's hamfisted of nature if I hand you an
>>egg and tell you it's a rock, and you believe me, and then it hatches
>>into a chicken.
>
>
> Let's just say that any observant individual could easily detect what's
> going on. See the embryo, etc. But if they look like berries, taste like
> berries, well, they must be berries.
>
> The PC's would undoubtedly have some frame of reference for determining what
> is a berry and what is an egg, even relatively obscure and unknown eggs
> would have something in common with each other.
>
> The hamfistedness doesn't stem from something being incorrectly identified,
> berry or egg, it stems from nothing foreshadowing it's miraculous
> transformation. One day you've got berries, the next, you've got a clutch
> of critters to deal with...

erm... what made you assume that it would occur that way?

DWS

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"David Serhienko" <david.serhienko@ndsu.nodak.edu> wrote in message
news:115tj9hn5eabk6f@corp.supernews.com...
> I had mulled over some other thoughts that, as they get closer and
> closer to hatching, they might become addictive. Or, alternatively,
> require a will save after the normal expiration time of Rage has
> elapsed, maybe the user begins to lose the ability to discriminate
> friend from foe, or something in that neighborhood.

Now *THAT* is a good idea. The barbarian eats one of the berries and finds
himself at the end of his rage, and you pass a note, whatever, to the
player, telling him the berries are strangely addictive, and he feels the
need to eat another one, and he can't really control himself. The net
result is that the party now has to deal with a raging barbarian with poor
targetting skills(he's now targetting the party!), and the berries are gone.

I'm actually doing SOMETHING like that in an upcoming adventure. I have
surreptitiously enlisted the aid of one of the other DM's/also a player, to
do an adventure where one character gets kidnapped and replaced by a "devil
on the shoulder". The other DM is going to appear to be a player for most
of the session, but he knows the whole story and everything, and his job is
going to be to try to get the "good" party to do a variety of evil things
before he is discovered. He's going to try to get them to lie, cheat,
steal, torture and kill and get them framed for it all. In the climax, the
character/devilonshoulder is going to have to actually fight the rest of the
party, then they'll figure out what's going on, and rescue the real party
member.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> You do realize that you're playing semantic shenanigans to rationale
>> bad behavior on your part, right? The usual MSB-rant, which contains
>> 90% personal attacks and 10% token evidence, /does/ attack the person
>> instead of his argument.

Donald Tsang wrote:
> While it's certainly the case that MSB levels ad-hominem attacks on
> his victims, I've observed that he usually either provides enough
> evidence that his target is wrong, or RTFMs (which, while sorta
> annoying, do point out that said target was too lazy to
> read/understand the rules as written).

I disagree. MSB-rants are full of mistakes, red herrings, and sometimes
even formal deductive fallacies (like getting modus tollens wrong). He
tries to cover it up with bluster, and obviously he convinces some folks
that his arguments are good enough, but he doesn't fool me. He's just
too arrogant to admit that he's wrong (despite his constant insistance
that he'll mea culpa when appropriate, he doesn't).
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Ad hominem fallacy is defined as letting statements about the speaker
> stand as the argument, rather than addressing the point. That's all
> there is to it.

Repeating your face-saving misdefinition does not make it correct.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> Well, knowing that the DM has control over the world, that qualifies it
> SQUARELY in the hamfisted realm, UNLESS the DM previously set up these
> "berries" to actually be eggs, in which case they could easily be
> telegraphed as such without the feeling of hamfistedness. Since that is not
> the case here, HAMFISTED IT IS.

You're just jealous that you didn't think of it.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"MisterMichael" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:1113520089.866366.75160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> You want to level a righteous criticism? Stop trying to pretend
> that my statements aren't well reasoned, and simply focus on the part

Well, *I* am not pretending. Your statements are not well reasoned, by any
stretch of the imagination.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5tufi.u90.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
> > Well, knowing that the DM has control over the world, that qualifies it
> > SQUARELY in the hamfisted realm, UNLESS the DM previously set up these
> > "berries" to actually be eggs, in which case they could easily be
> > telegraphed as such without the feeling of hamfistedness. Since that is
not
> > the case here, HAMFISTED IT IS.
>
> You're just jealous that you didn't think of it.

I've already said it was a good idea, but that doesn't make it any less
hamfisted. Heck, all of the ideas for rapid berry removal were pretty
hamfisted.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5tu6j.u90.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> I disagree. MSB-rants are full of mistakes, red herrings, and sometimes
> even formal deductive fallacies (like getting modus tollens wrong). He
> tries to cover it up with bluster, and obviously he convinces some folks
> that his arguments are good enough, but he doesn't fool me. He's just
> too arrogant to admit that he's wrong (despite his constant insistance
> that he'll mea culpa when appropriate, he doesn't).

More lies, Bradd. You really are being quite pathetic. Google shows my
mea culpas just fine. And you are welcome to illustrate, for example, how
pointing out that Jeffie's own definition of ad hominem disagrees with his
own claims about it "isn't good enough". Or how showing what the rules say
about alignment and how it conflicts with his mischaracterization of them
"isn't good enough", and so on, and so on.


-Michael

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
>
>> Is there some indication that your interpretation is more valid than any
>> other interpretation of the class?
>
> The part where every interpretation but yours allows for more variety
> in paladins and a richer tapestry of gameplay? The part where every
> single gods-damnned time paladins are discussed in the official game
> magazine, they are laced through with *reminders* that the paladin need
> *not* be the stereotype that the naive assume?

Gary Gygax, for instance, has stated on ENWorld that the "troubadour" kind of
paladin can be a big fat slut, and it's up to his particular god to decide if
that causes a problem or not. Hardly chivalrous in the sense Goslin means.

(Of course, in the same thread Gygax claims that a paladin killing orcs
converted to LG would be "sending them to a heavenly reward before they can
backslide into evil" and thus doing them a good turn, so he's crazy, but still.)

--
Christopher Adams - Sydney, Australia
What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you
understand?
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/prestigeclasslist.html
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/mhacdebhandia/templatelist.html

Perge, scelus, mihi diem perficias.

Asatoma sat gamaya, tamasoma jyotir gamaya, mrityorma anritam gamaya.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jay Knioum explained how to pronounce his name:
> "KEY-num"

Ah, I've been wondering about that.

> Probably incorrect, but we've been saying it that way for generations.

I was trying to figure out its ethnic origin, and then trying to guess
how it'd be Anglicized. I'm pretty sure that's a little bit wrong
regardless of the origin! I would've guessed "nee-oom" or maybe
"knee-oom" with an audible K.

Keith Davies wrote:
>> Heh, my daughter's name is Naomi. It's a Japanese name (as well as
>> western), and pronounced "na O' mee" (as opposed to "nA O' mee" or --
>> bizarrely -- "nY' O mee").

> Pretty name, especially when you say it right. Not surprisingly, "nY'
> O mee" seems to be what you hear most often on TV, I've noticed.

That's my daughter's name too. I'm pretty sure I know where the "ny"
pronounciation comes from, based on my knowledge of linguistics. First,
most English vowels are pronounced as diphthongs or glides. Second,
English tends strongly toward consonants between all syllables -- the
language just isn't friendly to consecutive vowels.

Because of that, many English speakers will exaggerate the usual vowel
glide into an approximant (i.e., a consonantal Y or W). Depending on
dialect, you'll often hear this in words like "paella" (pah-YEL-la) and
"sour" (sow-wer). Inserting extra sounds like this is called
/epenthesis/.

Epenthesis turns "Naomi" into "Nayomi." If you pronounce it with a long
A, it sounds like "neigh-yo-mee" (which is how we say our daughter's
name). However, if you pronounce it with a continental short A, the
epenthesis creates an AI diphthong -- "ny-yo-mee." (I hope that was all
comprehensible.)

By the way, the "KEY-num" pronunciation of "Knioum" is another example
of epenthesis.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd wrote:
>> I disagree. MSB-rants are full of mistakes, red herrings, and sometimes
>> even formal deductive fallacies (like getting modus tollens wrong). He
>> tries to cover it up with bluster, and obviously he convinces some folks
>> that his arguments are good enough, but he doesn't fool me. He's just
>> too arrogant to admit that he's wrong (despite his constant insistance
>> that he'll mea culpa when appropriate, he doesn't).

MSB wrote:
> More lies, Bradd ....

You keep telling yourself that, juicebag.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:

> Because of that, many English speakers will exaggerate the usual vowel
> glide into an approximant (i.e., a consonantal Y or W). Depending on
> dialect, you'll often hear this in words like "paella" (pah-YEL-la)

[snip]

Ewww...I wasn't aware anybody pronounced it like that. It's Spanish!
pah-EIGH-ya.

-Will

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
> It's pretty funny seeing her stand there, hands on her hips, looking up
> at someone and showing them how to pronounce her name correctly.
>
> "N-A-O-M-I *Na*-*O*-*mee*!"
>
> Part of me thinks "it's not really polite for a child to correct a
> grown-up like that", a more reasonable part of me knows "it's probably
> less polite to repeatedly mispronounce someone's name, *regardless* of
> how old the person is".
>
> I dunno *where* they get 'nY' O mee'.

Epenthesis creates a diphthong. (Those cunning linguists, they sure love
funny words.) See my other post for more details.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Will Green <will_j_green@yXaXhXoXoX.com> wrote:
> Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
>
>> Because of that, many English speakers will exaggerate the usual vowel
>> glide into an approximant (i.e., a consonantal Y or W). Depending on
>> dialect, you'll often hear this in words like "paella" (pah-YEL-la)
>
> [snip]
>
> Ewww...I wasn't aware anybody pronounced it like that. It's Spanish!
> pah-EIGH-ya.

American Heritage actually lists the audible-L version as the primary
pronunciation, perhaps because the word came into English via French
instead of Spanish. Anyway, even with silent Ls, it'd be "pie-YAY-ya" in
English, because of epenthesis and the resulting diphthong.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote:
> Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org> wrote:
>> It's pretty funny seeing her stand there, hands on her hips, looking up
>> at someone and showing them how to pronounce her name correctly.
>>
>> "N-A-O-M-I *Na*-*O*-*mee*!"
>>
>> Part of me thinks "it's not really polite for a child to correct a
>> grown-up like that", a more reasonable part of me knows "it's probably
>> less polite to repeatedly mispronounce someone's name, *regardless* of
>> how old the person is".
>>
>> I dunno *where* they get 'nY' O mee'.
>
> Epenthesis creates a diphthong. (Those cunning linguists, they sure love
> funny words.) See my other post for more details.

By the way, once you understand how the diphthong occurs, you can
explain that it's not a mispronunciation so much as a difference in
dialect. For example, I wouldn't correct a German for pronouncing
"Bradd" like the first syllable of "bratwurst." (It'd be ironic if I
did, since my name ultimately derives from a German surname, Bradt,
which sounds exactly like the first syllable of "bratwurst.")
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Jeff Goslin wrote:
> I've already said it was a good idea, but that doesn't make it any
> less hamfisted ....

You're contradicting yourself again.
--
Bradd W. Szonye
http://www.szonye.com/bradd

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
news:slrnd5uqsb.14g.bradd+news@szonye.com...
> Jeff Goslin wrote:
> > I've already said it was a good idea, but that doesn't make it any
> > less hamfisted ....
>
> You're contradicting yourself again.

I don't see how it's a contradiction to note that an idea is hamfisted AND
cool at the same time... ???

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Matt Frisch" <matuse73@yahoo.spam.me.not.com> wrote in message
news😱psu5151nd8km6baak5ca5to6mt80rslo7@4ax.com...
> >The shorter the timeframe of removal, the more hamfisted it will be.
>
> False. Time frame is not important.

The time frame *IS* important, when speaking to hamfistyness. It's the very
fact that our timeframe is short that causes the solution to be hamfisted,
so it cannot be anything BUT important to note.

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Fri, 15 Apr 2005 00:08:20 -0400, "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net>
scribed into the ether:

>"Bradd W. Szonye" <bradd+news@szonye.com> wrote in message
>news:slrnd5tufi.u90.bradd+news@szonye.com...
>> Jeff Goslin <autockr@comcast.net> wrote:
>> > Well, knowing that the DM has control over the world, that qualifies it
>> > SQUARELY in the hamfisted realm, UNLESS the DM previously set up these
>> > "berries" to actually be eggs, in which case they could easily be
>> > telegraphed as such without the feeling of hamfistedness. Since that is
>not
>> > the case here, HAMFISTED IT IS.
>>
>> You're just jealous that you didn't think of it.
>
>I've already said it was a good idea, but that doesn't make it any less
>hamfisted. Heck, all of the ideas for rapid berry removal were pretty
>hamfisted.

*shrug* Here's one off the top of my head that isn't remotely:

Some significant NPC to the party (optionally a PC, but that is harder to
arrange) falls under the influence of a powerful poison or curse that
causes them to be extremely lethargic (think: permenant Slow spell), and
resists all forms of removal/cure, and will eventually kill that person in
short order. You can take this person to some powerful temple or healer of
some sort where they can be made well, but dragging along a semi-comatose
person will make the trip take too long. Some research into the illness
reveals that the rageberries will allow this person to function normally
for 5-8 hours (or whatever) per berry ingested. Uses up the berries, good
roleplaying experience, and an adventure all in one.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:58:47 GMT, Sea Wasp
<seaobviouswasp@sgeobviousinc.com> scribed into the ether:

>Matt Frisch wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:29:12 GMT, Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org>
>> scribed into the ether:
>
>>>Incidentally, grab Sea Wasp's book (_Digital Knight_, by Ryk Spoor).
>>
>>
>> Eep, "Ryk E. Spoor" is Sea Wasp's real name? And I thought I got teased a
>> lot as a kid for my name...
>
> But you will admit you're much less likely to forget my name.

It makes me afraid to ask what the E stands for.

> Also pick up _Mountain Magic_, containing my short novel "Diamonds
>Are Forever" (it says "By Eric Flint and Ryk E. Spoor", but as Eric
>himself said "Ryk, if there was any justice in the world my name
>wouldn't even be ON that story; I gave you like two ideas and said 'Go
>to it!'; on the other hand, about twenty times more people know my
>name than yours, so I figure you'd rather have the sales." He's
>completely right, too). If you like Digital Knight, you'll almost
>certainly like Diamonds.

No nasty letters from Ian Fleming's people?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:upCdnchsh68EocLfRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> "MisterMichael" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:1113520089.866366.75160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > You want to level a righteous criticism? Stop trying to pretend
> > that my statements aren't well reasoned, and simply focus on the part
>
> Well, *I* am not pretending. Your statements are not well reasoned, by
any
> stretch of the imagination.

Prove it, bitch.

-Michael

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:6yM7e.6690$yq6.719@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> "Jeff Goslin" <autockr@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:upCdnchsh68EocLfRVn-sw@comcast.com...
> > "MisterMichael" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:1113520089.866366.75160@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> > > You want to level a righteous criticism? Stop trying to pretend
> > > that my statements aren't well reasoned, and simply focus on the part
> >
> > Well, *I* am not pretending. Your statements are not well reasoned, by
> any
> > stretch of the imagination.
>
> Prove it, bitch.

Eeeh... why bother? It's not like you'd recognize it even if I did...

--
Jeff Goslin - MCSD - www.goslin.info
It's not a god complex when you're always right

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Bradd W. Szonye wrote:
> Bradd wrote:
> >> You do realize that you're playing semantic shenanigans to
rationale
> >> bad behavior on your part, right? The usual MSB-rant, which
contains
> >> 90% personal attacks and 10% token evidence, /does/ attack the
person
> >> instead of his argument.
>
> Donald Tsang wrote:
> > While it's certainly the case that MSB levels ad-hominem attacks on
> > his victims, I've observed that he usually either provides enough
> > evidence that his target is wrong, or RTFMs (which, while sorta
> > annoying, do point out that said target was too lazy to
> > read/understand the rules as written).

I agree, and your point of distinction between attacks and fallacies is
a good one.

>
> I disagree. MSB-rants are full of mistakes, red herrings, and
sometimes
> even formal deductive fallacies (like getting modus tollens wrong).

Here's a fallacy for you -- you really need to let it go, your agenda
is far too obvious.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

Matt Frisch wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 22:58:47 GMT, Sea Wasp
> <seaobviouswasp@sgeobviousinc.com> scribed into the ether:
>
>
>>Matt Frisch wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 04:29:12 GMT, Keith Davies <keith.davies@kjdavies.org>
>>>scribed into the ether:
>>
>>>>Incidentally, grab Sea Wasp's book (_Digital Knight_, by Ryk Spoor).
>>>
>>>
>>>Eep, "Ryk E. Spoor" is Sea Wasp's real name? And I thought I got teased a
>>>lot as a kid for my name...
>>
>> But you will admit you're much less likely to forget my name.
>
>
> It makes me afraid to ask what the E stands for.

Erik. As I used in my self-insert character "Erik Arisia", the
Wanderer, in "An American Gamer in Gondor".

>
>
>> Also pick up _Mountain Magic_, containing my short novel "Diamonds
>>Are Forever" (it says "By Eric Flint and Ryk E. Spoor", but as Eric
>>himself said "Ryk, if there was any justice in the world my name
>>wouldn't even be ON that story; I gave you like two ideas and said 'Go
>>to it!'; on the other hand, about twenty times more people know my
>>name than yours, so I figure you'd rather have the sales." He's
>>completely right, too). If you like Digital Knight, you'll almost
>>certainly like Diamonds.
>
>
> No nasty letters from Ian Fleming's people?

Titles are not copyrightable except in the narrowest sense, and in
this case the reference was to the DeBeers campaign, which I believe
was the source of the Fleming title as well.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/