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Discussion PSU tier list discussion thread

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Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Also the
Let's be fair. Sparkle IS FSP. So they're not that bad.

Why they use both brands is beyond me. It's like Dodge/Chrysler or Ford/Mercury.

Their US HQ is across the street from Corsair and the sign says "SPARKLE POWER FSP".
Well, Hydrance is Seasonic, and they pretty much suck, Compucase Orion is HEC, and they pretty much suck, so............
 

LukeSavenije

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Also the

Well, Hydrance is Seasonic, and they pretty much suck, Compucase Orion is HEC, and they pretty much suck, so............
except for you know... them having a decent platform with TP/TPK, making some half-decent units for Corsair, BeQuiet, EVGA and others... and iirc they even got themselves some new Chroma's recently. Don't underestimate HEC, even if they're made some cheap stuff in the past. If you base your view of the company off the crap they've made, no company would be safe.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
except for you know... them having a decent platform with TP/TPK, making some half-decent units for Corsair, BeQuiet, EVGA and others... and iirc they even got themselves some new Chroma's recently. Don't underestimate HEC, even if they're made some cheap stuff in the past. If you base your view of the company off the crap they've made, no company would be safe.
TP/TPK is HEC, it is NOT Compucase Orion. You should probably re-read what I said.
 

LukeSavenije

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So, my first issue with this list is the blanket inclusion of multiple capacity/model for a given series all being lumped together. IMO, that can't happen.
this is the major reason we split platforms in the sheet, but things would get messy if we did this inside the list, unless that specific wattage comes out higher or lower (example would be CV)

Yes, I realize that it's a lot more work to differentiate between the 550, 650, 750, 850 models, etc., for each series, (Which is why MANY people have begun then quit, working up a list of their own. Including you Jon) but I think that's something you have to do especially since we already KNOW that in many if not most cases, there can be major differences from model to model within the same series.
stupid idea maybe... but wouldn't this mean the exact same for any other idea? even outside of these tier lists, this would literally make every psu recommendation outside of the reviewed wattages completely irrele

Seasonic M12II for example. The 520w and 620w models are group regulated and are an entirely different platform than the 750w and 850w models, which are DC-DC and couldn't reasonably be included on the same tier or considered to be the same type of product as those group regulated parts.
ever looked up what these are named? they're called S12ii evo and M12ii (evo) x50, placed in a higher tier than the rest of S12ii/m12ii, since we're aware of this platform change

EVGA as well. Several of the B3 units Aris tested blew up in testing. One capacity model did not and actually tested out well. There are a variety of examples out there of MANY series from different companies where entirely different platforms are used within the same series, so I think any series that has multiple models at different capacities needs to be considered a unique entry per capacity if any sort of accuracy is to be maintained.
and this is actually where I saw some people completely turn against RSY for some reason, expecting this being a regular screw-up, while they do production for Kolink, Cooler Master, Xilence, Seasonic and Superflower right now... they're certainly not up there with some of the bigger OEMs, but they're well at doing things at low costs.

The fact that the only difference between this unit and the Seasonic SSR-850x it is based off of, is the addition of a digital controller, which by the way Aris says does not improve performance, while the Seasonic SSR-850x itself is entirely missing from the Tier A, suggests the bias against Seasonic that has been pretty evident on this list since it's inception.
now this is just misreading as a whole, for the first part these units are there, marked as Focus FM/FX/GM/GX, and there is one more change you've missed. the E-series uses that digital capacity in it's advantage to be set to a 3-rail mode in CAM software, making it qualified to be set as a switch-able multirail... it's in no way a higher tier, just set in the right sub-category... I don't see anything wrong with that. and there's nothing NZXT E wouldn't meet according to guilding standards, so I don't really see the problem here, even if I've spoken with Aris directly about the unit, coincidentally, and he did say he would prefer C-series (GX rebrand) over it, but we have discussed some more things around this before.

and keep in mind, this is a baseline, this doesn't replace reviews, it even makes use of them to create said baseline from a methodology. of course a project like this has it's flaws, but so would anything be simply because you only have so much info, and we can't ask a small group of reviewers to test a huge amount of units, even testing a modern range from one company would be heavy enough, let alone doing it with many of the modern units.

How does the Kolink Continuum C-PL 1500w land on Tier A, when the JG review said it didn't have outstanding voltage regulation (And ANY Tier A unit SHOULD have great voltage regulation) and Aris said:
I'll refer you to the methodology again... there's nothing that much wrong with the unit that it justifies tiering it down...

and with the "anti-seasonic" bias... I still do work with them on things, I still have a rep walking around and they only got mad at me once, there's not much to worry about in that regard, and I'll threat Seasonic as any other... just keep in mind they're just a small tier 3 manufacturer and don't deserve a godly status for everything they do, they're just another company, and so is CWT, HEC, Superflower or whoever else you have in mind as an OEM.
 

LukeSavenije

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If one was told nothing about power supplies and was asked to pick what the cheapest junk is just based on name, I would think "Super Flower" would have a high chance of being picked. Or maybe Sparkle? You really don't want your PSU to sparkle!
in defense... Trust has made PSUs too before

which would be the last thing I'd have in one of them
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
If you base your view of the company off the crap they've made, no company would be safe.
No company IS safe. Which is why in depth reviews and individualized assessments are so damn important. Every manufacturer, Seasonic, Super Flower, FSP group, Enermax, Great wall, CWT, Delta, HiPro, Sirtec, Topower, they all have at least something halfway decent for the most part, and also some real turds. The difference is, when a company has MOSTLY turds, it's hard to get rid of the foul stench around them just because they happen to toss one or two roses onto the pile.
 

LukeSavenije

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The difference is, when a company has MOSTLY turds, it's hard to get rid of the foul stench around them just because they happen to toss one or two roses onto the pile.
sadly, yes... I've actually been surprised by some of the decent units LC-power has done as an example... a name I wouldn't link to decent that often
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
except that the company is literally called HEC/COMPUCASE Enterprise Co., Ltd...
Compucase Orion is a SUBSIDIARY of HEC. It is NOT HEC itself.

It is listed in the Taiwan trade index as a separate company, started in 1997, while HEC group is actually a group of subsidiaries, much like Fortron source power group. But in some sense it really is just semantics or a point of view that differentiates one thing from another. Anyhow, you knew what I meant. This is just another case of "I can't hear what anybody else is saying". Same game. Different thread. Exactly what I said would happen the minute anybody tried to make recommendations on correcting the problems with this list.


Notice, no mention, at all, of HEC.

 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
Don't get me wrong, I can FULLY appreciate the amount of work and time you guys have put into this, but it has glaring problems and unless you are willing to accept constructive suggestions for improving it, it seems doomed to me. Same as Dottorent's list was the minute he stopped updating it or listening to input.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
ever looked up what these are named? they're called S12ii evo and M12ii (evo) x50, placed in a higher tier than the rest of S12ii/m12ii, since we're aware of this platform change
This is true, but is not what I was expressing, and again, I think you know that. Even the original M12II series had different platforms. There were distinctly different platforms used for the 520/620w and the 750/850w models. Besides which, the POINT wasn't about THOSE specific models. The POINT was that IN ANY SERIES there can be differences between models, because of entirely different platforms used, or even when the same platform is used we've seen WAY different results from model to model within a series and especially model to model when talking same platform but different brands altogether.

Also, I didn't mention the S12II at all.
 

daris98

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Don't get me wrong, I can FULLY appreciate the amount of work and time you guys have put into this, but it has glaring problems and unless you are willing to accept constructive suggestions for improving it, it seems doomed to me. Same as Dottorent's list was the minute he stopped updating it or listening to input.
Well TBH it's hard to say what your suggestions actually are. We have split M12II (EVO) x50 and x20, so I think there's no issue with that. Yes, there are many others that are like this, and we have done the same too, such as the CV series (650 is different than 550 & 450), also XFX core and TS series which are based on the M12II, among many others.
 

Juular

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This is true, but is not what I was expressing, and again, I think you know that. Even the original M12II series had different platforms. There were distinctly different platforms used for the 520/620w and the 750/850w models.
As far as i'm aware, they do use different platforms but both original M12II and M12II EVO use the same platforms on X20W (group reg, same as S12II) and X50W SKUs (ancient too but at least DC-DC). Seasonic says that they've improved C6/C7 compatibility on Evo lineup so there may be some changes to the way how they treat crossload situations but overall platforms are the same.
Besides which, the POINT wasn't about THOSE specific models. The POINT was that IN ANY SERIES there can be differences between models, because of entirely different platforms used, or even when the same platform is used we've seen WAY different results from model to model within a series and especially model to model when talking same platform but different brands altogether.
And again, we do check for this stuff routinely, if this isn't seen in the tier list then these different platforms are either qualify for the same place in the tier or we misplaced them / forgot to check, happens too. But unless you have some specific examples of that i'm confident that we have accounted for everything at least in tier A since it has the most attention.
So far on examples you did mention, EVGA B3 uses the same platform, yes, theme may be some problems in reviews but it's not wattage related, just QC control issues on RSY side but newer revisions seem to be fixed hence we split it to pre and post 2020 (which would be fixed to 2019 huh).
On the NZXT E, Aris has a review for 650W too on TPU, it's fine, transient response issues are the same as for the base platform, Focus Gold and honestly i couldn't care less about 3.3V rail performance anyway, software readings accuracy we don't tier for, and since you can make a custom fan profile it still can be quiet with manual adjustment that's why it's still treated as qualifying blue color and thus gold.
On Kolink Continuum 1500W, as Luke said, currently neither of these issues are considered bad enough to detier it, certainly not noise, hold-up time (which a lot of units fail for), and minor rails regulation, cables and sockets not being electrically compatible is probably good (or bad) enough reason to make it gray however or at least to put a dagger note on it, we'll discuss that. If you have other examples of such lineups or other suggestions they're more than welcome.

On a side note, i mean, these Armageddon bombs are amusing to say at least but has anyone actually reviewed them (except for that one Aris video) ?
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
I don't believe the way you have things listed out is clear at all to the average person. I think not specifically noting that a given listing includes all it's capacity models, ie, 550w, 650w, 750w, to show that they are all considered to be there on that same level, and if there is a model within a series that we don't have any information for, then IMO it should be noted that that model is not included because there is a lack of information substantial enough to warrant inclusion. In this case OW reviewed all three of the NZXT E-series units, so fine, he says their all about the same with a few small variables that don't necessarily result in any one of the capacity models being substantially better or different than the others.

I think there is a lot of vetting to be done of units which are listed, but I see no reviews for, anywhere, that are substantial and legitimate, from a trustworthy reviewer, and are in depth. I'll get back with you guys on this though with further questions and suggestions. I'd like to see this work, but I guess we'll see how willing you guys are to bend. Currently, it doesn't look like there is any intention or willingness at all to do so. Hopefully I'm wrong about that.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
I also think it's practically obligatory to add an unreviewed/untiered category for units that there just isn't enough information about to make judgements one way or the other when you come across them. I mean, obviously we know that if a company doesn't send anybody any review samples of a given model, it's probably a POS and they've intentionally not send them out because they know it's going to have a backlash effect from reviewers if they do, but even so, don't know is don't know regardless. All the more reason to put them in a "we don't know, but I'd be very hesitant about using one of these" category.
 

Juular

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I think there is a lot of vetting to be done of units which are listed, but I see no reviews for, anywhere, that are substantial and legitimate, from a trustworthy reviewer, and are in depth.
Again, if we're not confident that some SKUs in the lineup use the same platform as others then we split it and gray out. We had internal discussion on whether to consider corner cases with reviews only on one wattage in the lineup as still good enough and the consensus were that yes we do (although i've voted against) but this may change in the future.
Then I have to assume you don't give ANY additional weight to a unit for being digital, in regard to where it lands on the list, right? Because if you do, then that should be a scoring concern.
Digital capability by itself doesn't have place in the methodology at all. Whether the unit has an ability to switch between multi and single-rail modes does, but only for the purpose of moving it into such subtier to signify that. Otherwise all tier A units multi-rail or not can be still considered belonging to the same tier and performance level.
 

Juular

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I also think it's practically obligatory to add an unreviewed/untiered category for units that there just isn't enough information about to make judgements one way or the other when you come across them. I mean, obviously we know that if a company doesn't send anybody any review samples of a given model, it's probably a POS and they've intentionally not send them out because they know it's going to have a backlash effect from reviewers if they do, but even so, don't know is don't know regardless. All the more reason to put them in a "we don't know, but I'd be very hesitant about using one of these" category.
That gray color is for. If we do know enough about the unit to tier it but don't know enough to be confident in it's performance (as in if there are no reviews on the plafrorm at all) then it gets grayed out. With prime examples being all of LDLC units that despite we do know that they use Seasonic platforms and even confident enough to say which ones exactly but still we haven't seen even just internal shots to confirm that, hence they all are grayed out.
 
Compucase Orion is a SUBSIDIARY of HEC. It is NOT HEC itself.

It is listed in the Taiwan trade index as a separate company, started in 1997, while HEC group is actually a group of subsidiaries, much like Fortron source power group. But in some sense it really is just semantics or a point of view that differentiates one thing from another. Anyhow, you knew what I meant. This is just another case of "I can't hear what anybody else is saying". Same game. Different thread. Exactly what I said would happen the minute anybody tried to make recommendations on correcting the problems with this list.


Notice, no mention, at all, of HEC.

To make this straight...

HEC is a big company that makes many things. Including hospital beds.

Compucase is the division that makes PSUs and cases. So there is no argument here.

It's like FSP vs. Sparkle. It's the same thing.
 

Darkbreeze

Titan
Moderator
How does the Wentai Aidan end up on tier one, again, as only one listing, when there are 7 different models, and when Aris had THIS to say about the Wentai Aidan 1616.

  • Increased EMI emissions at low frequencies
  • Short EPS and ATX cables
  • DC Power sequencing has problems (3.3 V rail higher than 5 V)
  • Power-on time is greater than 150 ms
  • The PSU cannot handle the full load with 100 V input and 110% load with 115 V input
  • Weird efficiency drop with 20 W load
  • Noisy operation
  • Low PF with 230 V input
  • Load regulation at 3.3 V and 5VSB not that tight
  • No selectable semi-passive operation
  • No digital communication with the system
That absolutely does not look like Tier A quality or performance to me. There will be others I'm sure once I actually start looking at them more closely.
 

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