Discussion PSU tier list discussion thread

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thinkwired

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As someone who does usability testing for a living. knows enough about computers/components to create my own PC BUT, not enough that I know what constitutes a good PSU vs a bad one...I figured I should offer my 2 cents.

I actually needed this list. I am your demo.

This list is not as user friendly as it could be. You don't know that because you're an advanced user. You have to realize that the people who would typically understand this list, don't need it. If you saw what I saw in usability tests, your mind would be blown. People struggle to search the internet. People struggle to copy and paste a file. People ask "how do I add a widget..." with a giant green "ADD A Widget" button right in the middle of their screen.

Great you say... how do we make it better? The reality is, I still (after reading this ENTIRE thread) don't know enough about PSU's to know the exact best way to present this information. For me to know the best solution I would have to become a subject matter expert or work closely with one.

I will however share my thoughts which will likely shed more light on the problem than the solution.

The list is too complicated. The size, length, format should be made simpler to understand. The problem is, it will require a bit more work and it seems as though that isn't feasible (based on what I've read).

1. Color coding should not be used for anything. Its complicated and it ignores people with disabilities. Forget about people who use screen readers, some people are just plain old color blind.

2. Someone in the thread joked about how there should be 3 tiers -- great, good, and dumpster fire. That person isn't far off from what should actually be done. If you can't rank them in order from 1-100 then you should really classify them by what they are. I am cool with the high end vs mid but, then it should jump to not good enough. If you want to create a 4th tier for actual fire hazards, that's cool too.

3. The older models should be removed from the list on the page but, left in the spreadsheet. This list needs to be shorter.

4. The list should be broken down by wattage. Having a 500w unit on the list next to a 1600w does me no good. It simply creates more options and noise. It makes the list hard to use. Leave the master list in the spreadsheet alone but break the online list into multiple threads based on wattage ranges, just like a search filter on newegg, bestbuy, etc.

I know #3 and #4 will be pushed back on because they are too much work but, are they really? Create columns in the spreadsheet to denote older models, sort by that column, and copy and paste. Seems simple enough. The same can be done for wattage but you'd have to break them out if they haven't been already.

The result will be a MUCH more usable list. If one of you took the time to do this and put it on your own website, it would become the official source.

I hope this helps. After reading this whole thread I'm not sure it does but, I figured it was worth a shot. We (typical people) need this list.
 
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thinkwired

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I understand this, however, for the majority that can see color, it is very beneficial in my opinion.
  1. I would just suggest that there may be a better solution than color.
  2. In my line of work, ignoring the minority is not an option. There are actually guidelines/rules/laws that make ignoring people with disabilities impossible. I would have no choice but to find another way.
 

thinkwired

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Why not just make quiet, best, and small form factor their own subsets under each tier (instead of a color)? What is more useful for the average user -- knowing if its multi vs single-rail OR simply quiet/best? Seriously, I'm asking. I have a guess but, I don't know. I'd have to do a poll.

In my line of work, we don't assume anything. You'd think you could assume that everyone knows the difference between the browser address bar and the main google search field on their homepage but, they don't. I've watched people type somewebsite.com into the google search field and then click the link. They think Google is the internet. These very people might want to buy their kid a good quality PSU.
 
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I don't think multi rail switchable is important at all. My PSU has this feature and I honestly don't know nor care to look what mode it is in. Something like quiet is subjective, and I can see other issues like different reviewers having different testing methodology and many reviews not including noise at all.

I think these 2 things could be omitted.

SFF could be its own tier list honestly.
 
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Darkbreeze

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This list is not as user friendly as it could be. You don't know that because you're an advanced user. You have to realize that the people who would typically understand this list, don't need it.
This mirrors exactly what has been said, MANY times before, and is exactly why my thread, IS catered to the people who need it and won't really understand this list well enough for it to really be useful to them. You can visit that thread by clicking the link in my sig.

In fairness there IS a niche user base that this list should prove useful to, which are users who are actually in between the advanced and noob groups, but that number of users is relatively small AND users within that group will generally either advance sufficiently quickly that it equally quickly becomes less meaningful for them, or will simply lose interest altogether and fade away. Either way, there is a fleeting aspect to it's usefulness except as a quick reference for some of the lazier advanced users or that niche group. Still, it's probably more useful than the majority of "tech articles" we see these days. That in itself should tell you something about the state of things in the tech communities.
 

Karadjgne

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  1. The color blind would see it as different shades, usually a grey, so it's not invisible.
  2. 1-100 is impossible. You think the current list a little confusing, try a numerical one where a particular model with the number ending in P is good, maybe in the 20's, but the exact same model with the number ending in K is junk, in the 80's. Most don't see the model number, they just see the brand and designation. You'd end up with a list of seperate units a 1000 lines long or more. Ppl just want to see the good, the bad, the ugly.
  3. Can't remove the older models. Because they are still bought and sold. Perfect example is the Seasonic S/M12-II 520/620w. It's 12? years old now? Has a few revisions, but still the same GB platform. It's also an international listing and what you in the States or EU would classify as 'Old' is still mainstream in many countries simply due to price.
  4. Wattage is the same argument, where would you place that Seasonic, the 520w is the same as the 620w as far as quality and performance goes, but the seperation of units would put the 620w way down on that 600w range and not be proportional to the 520w, making the smaller unit actually look better. Same for other units, like certain wattage ranges change platforms, the 450/550/650 is one platform, the 750/850 uses a different platform. Now you have those split by wattage, rating, numbered, adding serious complexity to the list.
  5. You talk about the widget and the big green button. What spreadsheet? Everyday users won't look at that, way too much info. They'll look at the list, if they get that far. For many, it's 'oh, I've heard of that brand, must be ok' and designer builders like CyberpowerPC, ibuypower, etc sell the **** out of the low end Corsair CX line, cuz its cheap, and a recognized brand.
  6. Newegg had one of the first widespread 'eggspert' lists. Tom's and others grabbed ahold of that and expanded on it, and was the main list here for a long time, authored and administered by a regular user whom on his own time researched every unit, review, teardown he could and made reliable suggestions for placement, pending future proof.
Basically your suggestion to do all the work and host on own website etc etc has already been tried and done. He retired, said **** it and left after finally getting discusted by all the negative feedback and complaints for various reasons, such as 'I've had my CX (old green) for 4 years, it's great, not junk, your an idiot'. Yeah, he had a CX 750 in a pc pushing 150w.

You can make some ppl happy all the time, or all the ppl happy some of the time, but it's a fools gamble to try and make all the ppl happy, all the time.
 

thinkwired

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The color blind would see it as different shades, usually a grey, so it's not invisible.
That's not how being color blind works. Have you ever tried discerning between 5 similar shades of gray?

1-100 is impossible. You think the current list a little confusing, try a numerical one where a particular model with the number ending in P is good, maybe in the 20's, but the exact same model with the number ending in K is junk, in the 80's. Most don't see the model number, they just see the brand and designation. You'd end up with a list of seperate units a 1000 lines long or more. Ppl just want to see the good, the bad, the ugly.
I agree, that isn't the solution. My point is, since you can't, you should simplify the groupings.

Can't remove the older models. Because they are still bought and sold. Perfect example is the Seasonic S/M12-II 520/620w. It's 12? years old now? Has a few revisions, but still the same GB platform. It's also an international listing and what you in the States or EU would classify as 'Old' is still mainstream in many countries simply due to price.
Are there any on this list that are no longer readily available as new purchases? If so, remove them.

Wattage is the same argument, where would you place that Seasonic, the 520w is the same as the 620w as far as quality and performance goes, but the seperation of units would put the 620w way down on that 600w range and not be proportional to the 520w, making the smaller unit actually look better. Same for other units, like certain wattage ranges change platforms, the 450/550/650 is one platform, the 750/850 uses a different platform. Now you have those split by wattage, rating, numbered, adding serious complexity to the list.
You create large groupings that make sense. I would assume 400-600w would be a grouping but, I'm not the expert. Even 400-750. All I know is, no one looking for a 450w PSU needs to see 1400w PSU's on the same list.

You talk about the widget and the big green button. What spreadsheet? Everyday users won't look at that, way too much info.
Exactly my point. The average person doesn't need to look at it. When you're creating a usable UI you hide the stuff for power users to simply the interface for the masses.

Basically your suggestion to do all the work and host on own website etc etc has already been tried and done. He retired, said **** it and left after finally getting discusted by all the negative feedback and complaints for various reasons, such as 'I've had my CX (old green) for 4 years, it's great, not junk, your an idiot'. Yeah, he had a CX 750 in a pc pushing 150w.
  1. Yeah, its work but, its work that can easily be monetized if the someone is willing to be paid for their time.
  2. Every tech review has negative feedback from someone calling the author an idiot. Who cares? If every tech author worried about that, there would be no tech articles. I agree, its not for everyone. Some people might walk away.
You can make some ppl happy all the time, or all the ppl happy some of the time, but it's a fools gamble to try and make all the ppl happy, all the time.
There are entire professions built around making as many people as happy as possible. Its not an easy job but, its very possible. Its the reason why some companies are wildly successful and others are not.
 
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Juular

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1. Color coding should not be used for anything. Its complicated and it ignores people with disabilities. Forget about people who use screen readers, some people are just plain old color blind.
As were said above, when the majority of people aren't color-blind this still benefits them. On the other hand, if someone is color-blind they just can't tell if the unit is the best in the tier, quiet or SFX, otherwise tiers still make sense. And trying to signify these things with other means will make this list even more difficult to read as there are already enough tiers and subtiers. In fact we've removed two tiers relatively recently. And tried to implement what currently gold color signifies as subtier on top of main tier as you've suggested, when given choice people in this (and LTT) thread voted for the alternative in the form of color coding with gold color.

2. Someone in the thread joked about how there should be 3 tiers -- great, good, and dumpster fire. That person isn't far off from what should actually be done. If you can't rank them in order from 1-100 then you should really classify them by what they are. I am cool with the high end vs mid but, then it should jump to not good enough. If you want to create a 4th tier for actual fire hazards, that's cool too.
That would be fantastic but it's not as simple as that. There are units for high-end builds - tier A, then for mid-end builds - tier B, then for low-end builds - tier C, and then a tier consisting of everything else, consisting of units you really shouldn't use today unless you really need something cheap, and then a tier literally consisting of dumpster fire units. Doesn't sound too complicated to me, and there are tier descriptions that'll help what tier do you need.

3. The older models should be removed from the list on the page but, left in the spreadsheet. This list needs to be shorter.
We've discussed that too, consensus was that even though these units are old, it still would be beneficial to have them in the list as to not force users to check with the spreadsheet or ask questions in the thread (let's be real, not many people will bother trying to go to the spreadsheet). And i've marked old\obsolete units with gray color just recently to try to rectify this problem. I guess it didn't work ?

4. The list should be broken down by wattage. Having a 500w unit on the list next to a 1600w does me no good. It simply creates more options and noise. It makes the list hard to use. Leave the master list in the spreadsheet alone but break the online list into multiple threads based on wattage ranges, just like a search filter on newegg, bestbuy, etc.
I don't see the problem here. Perhaps you're doing it wrong, you see, if you want to buy a unit, you first get to your retailer of choice, tick 80+ Bronze or 80+ Gold (if you're aiming for high-end stuff) units and above in the filter, define wattage range and sort the list by increasing price. Then you look what's there and check with the list. When you see a cluster of units from your tier of choice with similar price then you still should do some research yourself to pick the best one of them, or just make a thread here on what would be better for your usecase. This way you don't need to deal with the sheer amount of units in the list, you just need to look for what you really can buy yourself.

I know #3 and #4 will be pushed back on because they are too much work but, are they really? Create columns in the spreadsheet to denote older models, sort by that column, and copy and paste. Seems simple enough. The same can be done for wattage but you'd have to break them out if they haven't been already.
All that is pretty much already in the spreadsheet, 'units index' sheet. It's just that i fill it out myself for the most part, it's tedious and i've burned out for now, maybe some day it'll be filled out at last but overall, the spreadsheet is supposed to a complementary piece of information anyway.

PS: We're working on the standalone version (site) where all the filters and hiding stuff for power users would be possible. Still, we need to do a lot of work first so it would be a simple article just like here for the time being.
 
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Karadjgne

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Yeah, its work but, its work that can easily be monetized if the someone is willing to be paid for their time.
By whom? There's only a handful of actual 'paid' employees on this site, all of whom are admin and monitoring this site is just part of their overall responsibilities. To my knowledge, All of the day to day Mods and Ambassadors are 100% volunteer.

Which beggars the question, just whom would you volunteer to pay for the time and effort for a user to run through this list and fix it to your suggestions in attempt to make you happy? And what about the next joker to make 'simple fix' suggestions that'd make him happy. Where does it end, and whom foots the bill, other than right now, a volunteer donating his precious time.

At the end of the day, the fix is Very simple for those whom do not like the list as it's currently organized. Don't use it. Do your own homework.
 

USAFRet

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  1. Yeah, its work but, its work that can easily be monetized if the someone is willing to be paid for their time.
  2. Every tech review has negative feedback from someone calling the author an idiot. Who cares? If every tech author worried about that, there would be no tech articles. I agree, its not for everyone. Some people might walk away.
There are entire professions built around making as many people as happy as possible. Its not an easy job but, its very possible. Its the reason why some companies are wildly successful and others are not.
Do YOU want to be the curator of a list like this? You personally.
Paid or unpaid?

If paid, who, specifically, is footing the bill?
 

Darkbreeze

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I guarantee you the only people getting "paid" for creating or maintaining any content on this site are those staff writers on the editorial side of the fence. And that is an entirely different side of the fence than the side we are on in forum/community.

There is LITERALLY "zero" chance of anybody monetizing ANYTHING when it comes to community content. It has never happened. It will never happen. End of story.
 

thinkwired

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At the end of the day, the fix is Very simple for those whom do not like the list as it's currently organized. Don't use it. Do your own homework.
I assumed, based on the request for feedback that the creators of this list were looking to create something that benefited the greatest number of users. Thereby making their hard work more worthwhile.

If they are simply creating the list out of their own love for lists, I agree with you -- lists are fun. Screw everyone, they should enjoy their own list and close the comments.

If paid, who, specifically, is footing the bill?
Advertisers/sponsors.

There is LITERALLY "zero" chance of anybody monetizing ANYTHING when it comes to community content. It has never happened. It will never happen. End of story.
I should have been more explicit, someone somewhere should create something similar or better on their own website. OR at least a website willing to compensate for it.

Again, my point was this type of thing is needed. The scary part is, the vast majority of people buying PSU's don't even know they need it. I have seen a number of PSU calculators that don't even specify the actual need. In other words, take our results and add XX % to it.
 
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thinkwired

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As were said above, when the majority of people aren't color-blind this still benefits them. On the other hand, if someone is color-blind they just can't tell if the unit is the best in the tier, quiet or SFX, otherwise tiers still make sense.
Im just giving you feedback from my world. Color coding isn't even an option. What we have found, from years and years of research, is that alternative solutions wind up presenting the data better for everyone.

Doesn't sound too complicated to me, and there are tier descriptions that'll help what tier do you need.
But, it is confusing. I'm telling you it is. Whats even more confusing is that you put units with "minor issues or lack of info " into every tier. How can that possibly be? It makes ZERO sense and I'm not the first person to say that. If you're telling me that you can definitively rank something with a "lack of info," then I don't trust your list.

We've discussed that too, consensus was that even though these units are old, it still would be beneficial to have them in the list as to not force users to check with the spreadsheet or ask questions in the thread (let's be real, not many people will bother trying to go to the spreadsheet). And i've marked old\obsolete units with gray color just recently to try to rectify this problem. I guess it didn't work ?
Again, I'm just giving you feedback from my world of usability. The more you can simplify something, the easier it is to consume/digest/comprehend. Your list is overwhelming to the people who need it.

A joke is often made that you should take your copy/explanations/help and cut it down to what you think is the bare necessity -- and then, when you're done -- cut that in half.

Perhaps you're doing it wrong, you see, if you want to buy a unit, you first get to your retailer of choice, tick 80+ Bronze or 80+ Gold (if you're aiming for high-end stuff) units and above in the filter, define wattage range and sort the list by increasing price. Then you look what's there and check with the list.
You're making a dangerous assumption of how people use this list -- this is not uncommon, it happens all the time. I start with this list and then go look for a PSU. Why would I waste my time looking up PSU's, picking the one I want, and then come here only to find out that you say it has a "lack of info" in tier C. I've just wasted my time. Now you want me to try again? OK, I found another one on sale, great deal, its a shmorsair 500w. Oh, wait, thats a knock off that isn't even on your list.

I want a 550w PSU at the top of tier B. I know that. Why wouldn't I just start there? I pick the top 3, and then I create price alerts. Done.

PS: We're working on the standalone version (site) where all the filters and hiding stuff for power users would be possible. Still, we need to do a lot of work first so it would be a simple article just like here for the time being.
This is excellent news. This SHOULD be a homerun. That said, the filters and hiding stuff wouldn't be for power users, it would be for typical users!

Best of luck with the standalone site, I really don't think you can screw it up. It should be a big hit. If it isn't it will only be because people don't know they need it. Anytime someone asks, what PSU should I get, someone should just link to your site -- question answered. If you have the programming knowledge, you should add an additional PSU wattage calculator that tells you what you actuall need and not what the system will draw. No one is doing this and its desperately needed.
 
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thinkwired

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Serious question... is there typically a correlation between the length of warranty and the classification on the list? There are plenty of PSU's with Gold efficiency ratings yet they have varying degrees of warranty -- 3, 5, 10 year. How often is a PSU with a 10 year warranty in tier B or C? How often is a PSU with a 3 year warranty in tier A?
 
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Serious question... is there typically a correlation between the length of warranty and the classification on the list?
Not necessarily.

Sometimes, PSUs built with high-end parts and design prove to be problematic in some way, which causes them to fall on lower tiers even though they come with lenghty warranties.

Another issue is the fact that manufacturers do not necessarily tailor warranty lenght based on how durable a unit is, but based on RMA rates.
Most people buy a new power supply whenever they buy a new rig (especially if the new system is more power hungry), therefore their former PSU isn't put to work for long enough to fail and go through RMA.
(You either retire a hero, or you live long enough to die before the end of the warranty).

Such "slick" business practices allow some manufacturers to build a very high reputation for themselves even though they don't deserve it, simply because they offer lenghty warranties, even for their low-end units.
 
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Juular

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Color coding isn't even an option.
Your feedback is welcome but i don't see any alternatives. Adding more subtiers contradicts to your own 'KISS' motto, and i've lost count how many times we added and removed them back already. We try to simplify the list too, the current it's state is what we came up with. If you have any concrete suggestions i'm all ears.

Whats even more confusing is that you put units with "minor issues or lack of info " into every tier. How can that possibly be? It makes ZERO sense and I'm not the first person to say that. If you're telling me that you can definitively rank something with a "lack of info," then I don't trust your list.
Just one example from tier A. Older Seasonic Focus units have issues with AMD Vega and possibly nVidia Ampere GPUs, they're still good for everything else and will be better than most units from tier B, hence tier A low priority.
Some units you see there have similar issues, not bad enough to put them in lower tiers since they will be better picks anyway. Other are seemingly based on a known platform which is basis for putting them in the particular tier but there aren't enough reviews on them directly, yet they sometimes go on sale for a good price and people keep asking whether they're good or not, .
Essentially, low priority tiers are those you shouldn't trust since even we don't, but we can't remove these units completely and moving them in lower tiers would be unfair.

A joke is often made that you should take your copy/explanations/help and cut it down to what you think is the bare necessity -- and then, when you're done -- cut that in half.
It's not possible when the topic is as complicated as choosing a PSU. I can equally recommend say, Corsair VS/CV, Corsair CX-m, Corsair CX and Corsair RMx but for different usecases and budget, that's already 5 tiers. If you want 3, okay, say, put VS,CV and CX-m in the same 'bad' tier, then Corsair CX in 'okay' tier and Corsair RM-x tier. Then there are also TX-m and RM 2019 which if you put in the 'okay' tier would stand-off because they're obviously better than CX, and if you put them in the 'good' tier without color coding, they'll stand-off too because RM-x/RM-i/HX/HX-i/AX/AX-i are obviously better too. Not to mention that with just three tiers subjectivity is inevitable.

You're making a dangerous assumption of how people use this list -- this is not uncommon, it happens all the time.
I know, and yet it's still wrong way to use this tier list. You can refer to Darkbreeze's thread and his long way of saying 'buy Seasonic' and just buy whatever Seasonic is cheapest right now. We can't say that because there are a lot of different Seasonic units, just as there a lot of Corsair, Thermaltake, Silverstone, and other brands you rarely even hear of. If you look at this list you'll find that often, units from the same lineup, yet different wattages or model suffixes end-up in vastly different tiers. We can't simplify that since it's not simple in the first place.
 

Juular

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Serious question... is there typically a correlation between the length of warranty and the classification on the list?
Zero correlation. We don't look at warranty length for tiering purposes. A prime example on why would be be quiet! Straight Power 11 Gold. It's a good unit, but it has 5 years warranty ...
 
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Darkbreeze

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You can refer to Darkbreeze's thread and his long way of saying 'buy Seasonic'
If THAT is what you get from the content of my thread, then you pretty obviously never bothered to actually read the entire post, or you read it, but your mind completely stopped functioning or blocked out everything else you read after reading the first paragraph of the Seasonic section. In fact, Seasonic makes up less than maybe ten percent of the entire post, and part of that is dedicated to the idea that some of their units aren't even worth considering, so where you get off saying anything like that is beyond me. It is, however, entirely unsurprising that you'd post something like that here given your rather polarizing (And questionable) history on this forum.
 
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Darkbreeze

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Zero correlation. We don't look at warranty length for tiering purposes. A prime example on why would be be quiet! Straight Power 11 Gold. It's a good unit, but it has 5 years warranty ...
Your ideas of what units are good and which ones are not, in a LOT of your placement selections, quite honestly leaves the majority of the community shaking their heads in disbelief.

How you can say, with a straight face, that the Straight power 11 Gold unit is "good" when it has all these marks against it, some of which are not minor considerations, is just, I don't even know what to say. At best those units are moderately mediocre. They are certainly not good by any measuring stick that anybody around here would prefer to see used. I'm actually quite surprised these even have a five year warranty, as a three year warranty would probably be a lot more appropriate. It is however, seemingly very quiet, so at least it lives up to it's namesake.

  • Expensive
  • The protection features are not configured correctly
  • Not so high overall performance
  • One of the EPS cables has two of these connectors
  • High Vampire Power
  • Lower than 70% efficiency with 2% load
  • Mediocre soldering quality
 

Juular

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How you can say, with a straight face, that the Straight power 11 Gold unit is "good" when it has all these marks against it
You're quoting a review for Platinum version.
Can't say Platinum version is good, not because of what you've quoted since pretty much everything aside of mediocre soldering quality is very minor, but because there were some reports of QC issues with this lineup, probably on 550/650W units. Overall performance as Aris mentioned is also not good enough to grant it gilded status, that's why it isn't but it's still a better pick than pretty much everything from tier B if we forget about the price (you can't tier that really so we don't) don't you think ?
 
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You can refer to Darkbreeze's thread and his long way of saying 'buy Seasonic'
If THAT is what you get from the content of my thread, then you pretty obviously never bothered to actually read the entire post, or you read it, but your mind completely stopped functioning or blocked out everything else you read after reading the first paragraph of the Seasonic section. In fact, Seasonic makes up less than maybe ten percent of the entire post, and part of that is dedicated to the idea that some of their units aren't even worth considering, so where you get off saying anything like that is beyond me. It is, however, entirely unsurprising that you'd post something like that here given your rather polarizing (And questionable) history on this forum.
@Juular - ok, I get that I'm just some guy who posts here, and am not by any stretch of the imagination an expert, electrical engineer, etc. But this is way out of line. Your statement there is flat out false. It has absolutely no business being posted on this forum. At all.
 
THAT being said, there ARE some units being sold with the Seasonic label that are NOT built by Seasonic. They use Seasonic designed platforms but are built by RSY. For now I believe these are limited to the S12III models, and they should be COMPLETELY avoided
This doesn't seem like "just buy SeaSonic" to me. Yes he says most SeaSonic units are good, which is true, the majority are, with notable exceptions which he stated there.

He did not say to just buy SeaSonic. Not at all.

Sounds like someone did not read that thread and is instead drawing false conclusions.

I understand SeaSonic has their faults. Early focus gold units having issues with certain GPUs. S12III is controversial since it's better than a s12ii in some ways but is worse in other ways, things I think are important like overall quality.

S12ii and M12ii should have been updated years ago and we're sold for a long time even though they were pretty outdated by the end. However, I have yet to have a single issue with these units. Overclocked liquid cooled gtx 1080 on an M12ii 520, no problem. My friend has an r9 290 running on an M12ii and it just takes it. They are outdated and have their faults, but they are just built like tanks with solid quality components.

They are a bit like an old washing machine I had. Old, outdated, not great by modern standards, but dead reliable.

Just saying "buy a SeaSonic" is wrong for reasons above, and you should never buy based on brand alone, and that is not what darkbreeze is saying.
 
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@NightHawkRMX @King_V @Darkbreeze I don't want to refresh my memory regarding that thread as i've tried to make a genuine discussion about it, suggesting things that i think are worth noting or changing there, that didn't go anywhere so i quit. So i may remember a summary of it wrong. Now if you have something to add on topic, regarding this thread, please do so, and please keep discussion about darkbreeze's thread in the thread itself.
 

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