Pyrite Spellbomb & Atog

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Name: Pyrite Spellbomb
R Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Pyrite Spellbomb deals 2 damage to
target creature or player. , 1 Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Draw a
card.
Color: Artifact
Casting Cost: 1
Card Type: Artifact

Name: Atog
Sacrifice an artifact: Atog gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Color: Red
Casting Cost: 1R
Card Type: Creature -- Atog
Power / Toughness: 1 / 2

Name: Skullclamp
Equipped creature gets +1/-1. Whenever equipped creature is put in a
graveyard from play, draw two cards. Equip 1 (1: Attach to target
creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into
play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)
Color: Artifact
Casting Cost: 1
Card Type: Artifact - Equipment

My friend has a couple of questions:

If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
doesn't)

Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason? My
friend doesn't believe me or maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that a
creature may be sacrificed at any time. There doesn't _need_ to be a
reason to sacrifice it, i.e. triggering Atog's ability, as he
believes. As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.

Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
reducing its' toughness to zero? Again I believe the answer is yes
due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.

Thanks again for the replies.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:

> Name: Pyrite Spellbomb
> R Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Pyrite Spellbomb deals 2 damage to
> target creature or player. , 1 Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Draw a
> card.
> Color: Artifact
> Casting Cost: 1
> Card Type: Artifact
>
> Name: Atog
> Sacrifice an artifact: Atog gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
> Color: Red
> Casting Cost: 1R
> Card Type: Creature -- Atog
> Power / Toughness: 1 / 2
>
> Name: Skullclamp
> Equipped creature gets +1/-1. Whenever equipped creature is put in a
> graveyard from play, draw two cards. Equip 1 (1: Attach to target
> creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into
> play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)
> Color: Artifact
> Casting Cost: 1
> Card Type: Artifact - Equipment
>
> My friend has a couple of questions:
>
> If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
> Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
> doesn't)

No. When, pray tell, would you be playing the activated ability of
Atog? Here is the detailed sequence for what you describe with Pyrite
Spellbomb:

1. You announce the second ability of Pyrite Spellbomb. You pay its
cost, spending 1 mana and putting the Pyrite Spellbomb in the graveyard.
2. You get priority and pass.
3. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4. The ability of Pyrite Spellbomb resolves. You draw a card.

If you want to play the activated ability of Atog after line 1, you'll
need to find an artifact still in play for paying its cost.

Suppose two adjacent vending machines both charge a dollar for a bottle
of soda. If you put a dollar in one and make a selection, do you also
get a bottle from the other one?

> Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason? My
> friend doesn't believe me or maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that a
> creature may be sacrificed at any time. There doesn't _need_ to be a
> reason to sacrifice it, i.e. triggering Atog's ability, as he
> believes. As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
> a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.

No, permaments stay in play unless moved to another zone by an effect or
rule. And Atog has never had a *triggered* ability.

214. Permanents

214.1. A permanent is a card or token in play. Permanents stay in play
unless moved to another zone by an effect or rule. There are four types
of permanents: artifacts, creatures, enchantments, and lands. Instant
and sorcery cards can't come into play.

404. Triggered Abilities

404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word "when," "whenever," or
"at." The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger condition,
which defines the trigger event.

> Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
> sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
> reducing its' toughness to zero? Again I believe the answer is yes
> due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
> stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.

No. Static abilities such as Skullclamp's "Equipped creature gets
+1/-1." do not go on the stack.

408.2b Static abilities continuously generate effects and don't go on
the stack.

The detailed sequence is as follows:

1. You announce the equip ability of Skullclamp. You choose your 1/1
creature as the target. You pay its cost, spending 1 mana.
2. You get priority and pass.
3. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
4. The equip ability of Skullclamp resolves. You move the Skullclamp to
your 1/1 creature. The creature is now 2/0.
5. You would get priority, but there is a state-based effect to resolve.
The creature is put in its owner's graveyard.
6. You would get priority, but there is a triggered ability to put on
the stack -- that of Skullclamp.
7. You get priority and pass.
8. Your opponent gets priority and passes.
9. The triggered ability resolves and you draw 2 cards.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thanks for the answers...much appreciated.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 21 May 2004 13:58:26 -0500, Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:
>Pyrite Spellbomb >1 >Artifact
>R,Sacrifice ~: ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player. / 1,Sacrifice ~:
> Draw a card.
>
>Atog >1R >Creature -- Atog
>1/2 Sacrifice an artifact: ~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

Before reading further: you can sac the Spellbomb to its own ability, or
to the Atog's; you can't "do both at once".

>Skullclamp >1 >Artifact - Equipment
>Equipped creature gets +1/-1. / Whenever equipped creature is put in a
> graveyard from play, draw two cards. / Equip 1 (*)
>
>My friend has a couple of questions:
>
>If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
>Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
>doesn't)

No, it does not. Atog does not have any sort of triggered ability which
triggers "Whenever an artifact is sacrificed", "Whenever you put an artifact
you control into a graveyard", or the like. Atog has an activated ability,
whose activation cost is sacrificing an artifact, just both of the
Spellbomb abilities are activated. To play an activated ability, you must
pay its activation cost. Performing an action for some other reason that
vaguely resembles what the activation cost says to do is not "paying the
activation cost".

In short: you can sac the Spellbomb to its first ability, OR you can sac it
to its second ability, OR you can sac it to the Atog ability, OR you can
sacrifice it for some other reason. But you have to have one and only one
reason to sacrifice it.

>Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason?

If he has a reason? Sure. If a cost or an effect of a spell or ability is
not saying to, and a rule of the game is not saying to? Then no, you can't.

> My friend doesn't believe me or maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that a
>creature may be sacrificed at any time. There doesn't _need_ to be a
>reason to sacrifice it,

This is also incorrect. Unfortunately it looks like your friend is 2 for 2
so far...

>i.e. triggering Atog's ability,

Atog's ability is _not triggered_. It does not start with "When", "Whenever",
or "At". Atog's ability is activated: it has a cost, a colon, and an effect,
left-to-right.

>As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
>a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.

Only if you have some way to sacrifice the creature; Skullclamp has no
particular way to cause a creature to go to the graveyard (other than the
-1 it gives to the creature's toughness, which _will_ kill a creature with
toughness 1 _or_ a creature with toughness N and N-1 damage already on it).

>Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
>sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
>reducing its' toughness to zero?

No. The creature will die from a state-based effect after the Skullclamp
gets attached to it; nobody will get priority before this happens, so
no spell or ability may be played "in between" in any way at all.

> Again I believe the answer is yes

Sorry, this too is incorrect.

>due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
>stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.

No. The "equipped creature gets +1/-1" ability of Skullclamp DOES NOT USE
THE STACK IN ANY WAY AT ALL. It is a static ability, since it is not
activated or triggered; it has a continuous effect that affects the
equipped creature the moment the Skullclamp becomes attached to it. If
you Clamp an N/1 creature, that creature dies after the Skullclamp gets
attached to it but before anything else can be announced or resolve.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 21 May 2004 13:58:26 -0500, Lophophora <nope@nope.com> wrote:

First off, go to Oracle for your card descriptions, that is the
official source (took me a while to figure out):
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dci/oracle
Or try David's Magic Database thats build by parsing Oracle:
http://www.cs.vu.nl/~dskloet/magic/

You can also find the comprehensive rules at the Oracle link.

Pyrite Spellbomb
{1}
Artifact
{R}, Sacrifice ~this~: ~this~ deals 2 damage to target creature or
player.
{1}, Sacrifice ~this~: Draw a card.

Atog
{1}{R}
Creature -- Atog
1/2
Sacrifice an artifact: ~this~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.

Skullclamp
{1}
Artifact -- Equipment
Equipped creature gets +1/-1.
When equipped creature is put into a graveyard, draw two cards.
Equip {1} ({1}: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a
sorcery. This card comes into play unattached and stays in play if the
creature leaves play.)

>My friend has a couple of questions:
>
>If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
>Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
>doesn't)

Your friend is right.
"{1}, Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb" is a cost that grants you this "Draw
a card" effect. "Sacrifice an artifact" is another cost that grants
the effect: "Atog gets +2/+2 until end of turn".

You can only pay one cost with any given thing - you can't tap one
forest and pay for both Giant Growth and Battlegrowth with that one
mana.

From the comp rules:
Pay
<snippety - not relevant here>
Each payment applies to only one spell or ability. For example, a
player can't sacrifice just one creature to play the activated
abilities of two permanents that require sacrificing a creature as a
cost. Also, the resolution of a spell or ability doesn't pay another
spell or ability's cost, even if part of its effect is doing the same
thing the other cost asks for.


>Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason?

No.

>As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
>a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.

Sorry, can't.

>Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
>sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
>reducing its' toughness to zero?

I take it that you want to equip eg. a 1/1 artifact creature with
Skullclamp, and then sack it to Atog just before it dies from having 0
toughness - thus getting +2/+2 for Atog as well as drawing two cards?

Sorry to dissapoint you again, but the creature will die as a
state-based effect before you get a chance to sacrifice it.

420. State-Based Effects

420.3. Whenever a player would get priority (see rule 408, "Timing of
Spells and Abilities"), the game checks for any of the listed
conditions for state-based effects. All applicable effects resolve as
a single event, then the check is repeated. Once no more state-based
effects have been generated, triggered abilities go on the stack, and
then the appropriate player gets priority. This check is also made
during the cleanup step (see rule 314); if any of the listed
conditions apply, the active player receives priority.

420.5. The state-based effects are as follows:

420.5b A creature with toughness 0 or less is put into its owner's
graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.

>Again I believe the answer is yes
>due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
>stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.

No, what will really happen is either:
Equip Skullclamp goes onto the stack.
You sac the creature to Atog and Atogs +2/+2 effect goes onto the
stack.
Atogs ability resolves.
Skullclamps equip ability is countered because its target is no longer
in play.

Or:
Equip Skullclamp goes onto the stack.
The equip resolves.
Before you get priority again (a chance to sac the creature to Atog),
the game checks for state-based effects, finds that your creature has
0 toughness and sends it to the graveyard.
Skullclamps "draw two cards" effect goes onto the stack.
"Draw two cards" resolves and you draw two cards.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Lophophora wrote:

> Name: Pyrite Spellbomb
> R Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Pyrite Spellbomb deals 2 damage to
> target creature or player. , 1 Sacrifice Pyrite Spellbomb: Draw a
> card.
> Color: Artifact
> Casting Cost: 1
> Card Type: Artifact
>
> Name: Atog
> Sacrifice an artifact: Atog gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
> Color: Red
> Casting Cost: 1R
> Card Type: Creature -- Atog
> Power / Toughness: 1 / 2
>
> Name: Skullclamp
> Equipped creature gets +1/-1. Whenever equipped creature is put in a
> graveyard from play, draw two cards. Equip 1 (1: Attach to target
> creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery. This card comes into
> play unattached and stays in play if the creature leaves play.)
> Color: Artifact
> Casting Cost: 1
> Card Type: Artifact - Equipment
>
> My friend has a couple of questions:
>
> If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
> Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
> doesn't)

He's right, you're not. Sacrificing the Artifact is a *cost*--you
can't use the same sacrifice to pay for two abilities any more than
you can use the same dollar to buy a soda that costs $1 *and* a
candy bar that costs $1. You may sacrifice the Spellbomb (and
spend R) to itself to do two damage, *or* you may sacrifice the
Spellbomb (and spend 1) to itself to draw a card *or* you may
sacrifice the Spellbomb to the Atog to give the Atog +2/+2.
You can only sacrifice the Spellbomb to *one* of those abilities.
>
> Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason?

No. You can only sacrifice a creature when instructed to by a card.

> My
> friend doesn't believe me or maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that a
> creature may be sacrificed at any time.

I'm afraid your friend is right again.

> There doesn't _need_ to be a
> reason to sacrifice it, i.e. triggering Atog's ability, as he
> believes. As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
> a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.

No. Nothing on the Skullclamp allows you to sacrifice a creature.
>
> Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
> sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
> reducing its' toughness to zero? Again I believe the answer is yes
> due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
> stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.

Yes and no. You can sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp's
equip ability resolves, yes. But I get the feeling you think you still
get your cards, and you don't, because then the Skullclamp never
actually equips the creature. In order to get your cards you have
to let the equip resolve, and then the creature dies as a state-based
effect for having 0 toughness before you have an opportunity to play
anything.
>
> Thanks again for the replies.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Jabberwocky]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Lophophora" <nope@nope.com> wrote in message
news:suisa0dc5c57ksl3lkqnvkfe060ksev47p@4ax.com...

>
> My friend has a couple of questions:
>
> If I pay 1 and sacrifice my Pyrite Spellbomb to draw a card does my
> Atog get it's +2/+2 ability? (I believe the answer to be yes, he
> doesn't)
>
Sorry, no. For the Atog to get the bonus, the artifact has to be sacrificed
*to the Atog*, not to any other ability/spell. One action can never pay for
two costs.

> Can a player sacrifice a creature any time for whatever reason? My
> friend doesn't believe me or maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that a
> creature may be sacrificed at any time. There doesn't _need_ to be a
> reason to sacrifice it, i.e. triggering Atog's ability, as he
> believes. As an example, I told him that he may equip a Skullclamp to
> a creature and sacrifice it to draw two cards.
>
Again, no. Some effect has to tell you to sac a permanent/draw a card/tap a
creature. There is nothing in the game of Magic that can be done "at any
time".

> Another question; When equipping Skullclamp to a 1/1 creature, can you
> sacrifice the creature before the Skullclamp kills the creature by
> reducing its' toughness to zero? Again I believe the answer is yes
> due to the fact that Skullclamp's +1/-1 effect is on the bottom of the
> stack and the sacrifice would be on top of the stack resolving first.
>
Good reasoning, but faulty in one aspect: the +1/-1 does not use the stack,
it is applied as soon as the Skullclamp's Equip ability comes off the Stack.
There is no time to respond after the modifier is applied. If you respond to
the Equip ability, you get to draw 0 cards from the Skullclamp, as it is not
attached yet.

> Thanks again for the replies.
>
De nada.


--
JahBerWocky
Good God, He's Lansdellicious!
REPENT! REPENT! THE END IS No Carrier

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Jabberwocky, worshipped by llamas the world over, wrote...
> Again, no. Some effect has to tell you to sac a permanent/draw a card/tap a
> creature. There is nothing in the game of Magic that can be done "at any
> time".

I can think of one thing - conceding.