[SOLVED] R7 3800x vs R5 2600 temps

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Rogue Leader

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I have not seen ANY review site manage to get a stable overclock at that level, and they are usually using best case hand picked samples sent directly to them by the manufacturers. Cinebench is NOT an acceptable metric for "stability" testing. Which I said before I'm pretty sure. I don't much care who says it is, it's not. It's a benchmark, not a stability test.

Realbench, using the stress test option, IS a useful stability test. Run Realbench for 8 hours, with half of your memory selected. If it passes that, then I'll believe that your 4.4Ghz OC is stable. Until then, I can only believe that it is not stable, regardless of the fact that you are not getting any clearly evident bluescreens or errors. There is much more to stability than that though. Many unstable systems will never show any symptoms like that until a while down the road when microerrors accumulate and begin causing major errors.
Agree. Maybe its fine maybe it isn't, but there is probably a reason PBO isn't going as high, and it arguably has more information and can parse it better than you or I.
 
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Darkbreeze

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Meaning, if PBO isn't allowing it to get up where it belongs, then all you are doing with the manual overclock is overriding something that the system feels is a good enough reason for it to NOT be at those clocks. What THAT is, at this point,¯\(ツ)
 

Rogue Leader

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Meaning, if PBO isn't allowing it to get up where it belongs, then all you are doing with the manual overclock is overriding something that the system feels is a good enough reason for it to NOT be at those clocks. What THAT is, at this point,¯\(ツ)
Its worth testing for sure, but there may be a good reason.

Still won't hurt anything by trying.
 

Jason H.

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I have not seen ANY review site manage to get a stable overclock at that level, and they are usually using best case hand picked samples sent directly to them by the manufacturers. Cinebench is NOT an acceptable metric for "stability" testing. Which I said before I'm pretty sure. I don't much care who says it is, it's not. It's a benchmark, not a stability test.

Realbench, using the stress test option, IS a useful stability test. Run Realbench for 8 hours, with half of your memory selected. If it passes that, then I'll believe that your 4.4Ghz OC is stable. Until then, I can only believe that it is not stable, regardless of the fact that you are not getting any clearly evident bluescreens or errors. There is much more to stability than that though. Many unstable systems will never show any symptoms like that until a while down the road when microerrors accumulate and begin causing major errors.
I ran aida64 for 3 hours with no problems max temp was 83c.

So idk. My PBO is broken but I have a golden sample for manual oc'ing. I will do some more stability runs tonight and see if anything pops up. I will probably just dial back to 4.3ghz anyways as the performance gain to 4.4 isnt even worth it.

I mean IN GAME PBO boosts to 4.3ghz but thats because temp is 58c-61c while gaming. But I still never see it hit 4.5, or even 4.4 while gaming with just pbo.
 

Jason H.

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Thats a good board, should be fine with overclocking and so on.

I'd try some long term testing on that OC see if it stays stable, that may be the reason. or PBO just isn't working for you which happpens. Works great on my 3700X, but as I said every chip is different
Yea i seen some people say on some chips theres boosting problems but they can only be fixed by the mobo manufactuerers releasing a new BIOS.

And sincw I dont have the tomahawk b450 MAX Im sure they will probably solely focus on the max version instead of mine.

Idk but ill do a overnight run while I sleep and see what happens.
 

Rogue Leader

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I ran aida64 for 3 hours with no problems max temp was 83c.

So idk. My PBO is broken but I have a golden sample for manual oc'ing. I will do some more stability runs tonight and see if anything pops up. I will probably just dial back to 4.3ghz anyways as the performance gain to 4.4 isnt even worth it.

I mean IN GAME PBO boosts to 4.3ghz but thats because temp is 58c-61c while gaming. But I still never see it hit 4.5, or even 4.4 while gaming with just pbo.
so it sounds like its (PBO) working right, I mean Cinebench isn't going to put a burst load on it the way a game does. Also its not going to hit 4.5
 
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Darkbreeze

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I ran aida64 for 3 hours with no problems max temp was 83c.
Clearly, you didn't read what I posted before. Here it is AGAIN.


Regardless of architecture, Prime95 Small FFT (With AVX/AVX2 disabled) works equally well across all platforms. Steady-state is the key. How can anyone extrapolate accurate Core temperatures from workloads that fluctuate like a bad day on the Stock Market?

(Steady state workloads are a REQUIREMENT for thermal compliance testing)

I'm aware of 5 utilities with steady-state workloads. In order of load level they are:

(1) P95 (No AVX/AVX2) - Small FFT's
(2) HeavyLoad - Stress CPU
(3) FurMark - CPU Burner
(4) Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool - CPU Load
(5) AIDA64 - Tools - System Stability Test - Stress CPU

AIDA64's Stress CPU fails to load any overclocked / overvolted CPU to get anywhere near TDP (Thermal design power), and is therefore useless, except for giving naive users a sense of false security because their temps are so low.

HeavyLoad is the closest alternative. Temps and watts are within 3% of Small FFT's.

(The above referenced from member Computronix, author of the Intel temperature guide)
 
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Rogue Leader

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I ran aida64 for 3 hours with no problems max temp was 83c.

So idk. My PBO is broken but I have a golden sample for manual oc'ing. I will do some more stability runs tonight and see if anything pops up. I will probably just dial back to 4.3ghz anyways as the performance gain to 4.4 isnt even worth it.

I mean IN GAME PBO boosts to 4.3ghz but thats because temp is 58c-61c while gaming. But I still never see it hit 4.5, or even 4.4 while gaming with just pbo.
Now I remembered a factor I forgot before, PBO is going to shut off if your temp is over about 68-70c. So in your example a page earlier of running Cinebench and it hitting 77c, PBO is off hence the clock speed limit..
 
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Jason H.

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Clearly, you didn't read what I posted before. Here it is AGAIN.


Regardless of architecture, Prime95 Small FFT (With AVX/AVX2 disabled) works equally well across all platforms. Steady-state is the key. How can anyone extrapolate accurate Core temperatures from workloads that fluctuate like a bad day on the Stock Market?

(Steady state workloads are a REQUIREMENT for thermal compliance testing)

I'm aware of 5 utilities with steady-state workloads. In order of load level they are:

(1) P95 (No AVX/AVX2) - Small FFT's
(2) HeavyLoad - Stress CPU
(3) FurMark - CPU Burner
(4) Intel Processor Diagnostic Tool - CPU Load
(5) AIDA64 - Tools - System Stability Test - Stress CPU

AIDA64's Stress CPU fails to load any overclocked / overvolted CPU to get anywhere near TDP (Thermal design power), and is therefore useless, except for giving naive users a sense of false security because their temps are so low.

HeavyLoad is the closest alternative. Temps and watts are within 3% of Small FFT's.

(The above referenced from member Computronix, author of the Intel temperature guide)
Sorry man I did go over it. Just a lot to retain all at once and Ive had a hectic week at work so I havent got to REALLY sit down and study all the info. No worries I will definately learn the stuff soon. Thank you again for all of the info!

With that said, I was just looking for stability, not temps and Aida has an option to stress the memory and gpu at the same time and my gpu is overclocked so I just used that since Im familiar with it, to test stability, not temps.
 

Jason H.

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Now I remembered a factor I forgot before, PBO is going to shut off if your temp is over about 68-70c. So in your example a page earlier of running Cinebench and it hitting 77c, PBO is off hence the clock speed limit..
If PBO is off at 77c wouldnt it stay at 3..9ghz and not boost to 4.15? Or is that just the regular PB taking over there?

Im JW how AMD can advertise 4.5ghz max boost clocks, but you need a water cooler with a glaciers worth of ice cubes inside to even keep this CPU at a temp that is even able to just pass 4.15 lol.

Looking like Im going to have to upgrade my cooling, AGAIN lol. Its such a shame I really had high hopes for this one. Even paid 61$ for it off ebay because amazon delayed shipments for a month so I paid like 13$ extra off ebay to get it sooner. Kinda sad that its not what I thought it was lol.

I mean grant it, Im never going to do anything on my PC to get it to go over 75c other than stress testing, but if it aint right, it aint right yano.

On a side note, I should have just optd for the 3700x Im sure with its 65w tdp it runs so much better ... lol

EDIT: I was wondering if my PSU could maybe be holding my CPU back? Its only 550w and my GPU is OC'd and now the CPU. And on some tests Ive ran on my GPU OC using furmark. they say something like Im being limited by "Power"? Almost like something isnt getting enough power to run at full potential. It had the word POWER with a #1 next to it meaning that was a limitation, so idk if that could somehow carry over to the CPU, or if that means Im PSU limited...not sure.. However I had that same reading when I was running my 2600 so..
 
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Darkbreeze

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That is likely reverting to the standard precision boost at that point.

As far as the

I was just looking for stability, not temps and Aida has an option to stress the memory and gpu at the same time and my gpu is overclocked so I just used that since Im familiar with it, to test stability, not temps.
I can understand that, however, it's backwards. Thermal compliance is the FIRST thing you should test for when you make ANY adjustment to your overclock. Stability doesn't matter if the configuration is not thermally compliant. Stability is the second thing you should test for.

And for those, I've done a lot of this myself, and asked a lot of people who've done a LOT MORE of it than I have. People who are engineers and do this at a level you and I will likely never comprehend, and the overarching opinion is that using Prime95 Small FFT for the thermal testing and Realbench for stability testing. There are, of course, a good many other utilities that I highly recommend for secondary and second opinion stability testing such as x264, OCCT (With Linpack and AVX or Linpack and SSE) or Prime95 custom modes.

That power issue is likely related to the power plan. There is extensive information available regarding the problems with EDC (Electrical design current and TDC (Thermal design current). Probably Rogue leader knows more about these specific indications than I do as I haven't run into any issues with these on the systems I worked on, but I know a lot of users HAVE had issues with them and I believe they were mostly due to issues with older power plans and chipset drivers.

As I think I mentioned before, you likely also want to be sure you have set ALL of the following in the BIOS.

Cool N' Quiet - Enabled
Core CPPC - Enabled
CPPC preferred cores - Enabled
Advanced (Or Global) C-states - Enabled

Also, I'd install THIS specific Windows 10 AMD chipset driver package if you have not already done so.

https://www.amd.com/en/support/chipsets/amd-socket-am4/b450


And double check that you are actually running the latest BIOS version.
 
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Jason H.

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That is likely reverting to the standard precision boost at that point.

As far as the



I can understand that, however, it's backwards. Thermal compliance is the FIRST thing you should test for when you make ANY adjustment to your overclock. Stability doesn't matter if the configuration is not thermally compliant. Stability is the second thing you should test for.

And for those, I've done a lot of this myself, and asked a lot of people who've done a LOT MORE of it than I have. People who are engineers and do this at a level you and I will likely never comprehend, and the overarching opinion is that using Prime95 Small FFT for the thermal testing and Realbench for stability testing. There are, of course, a good many other utilities that I highly recommend for secondary and second opinion stability testing such as x264, OCCT (With Linpack and AVX or Linpack and SSE) or Prime95 custom modes.

That power issue is likely related to the power plan. There is extensive information available regarding the problems with EDC (Electrical design current and TDC (Thermal design current). Probably Rogue leader knows more about these specific indications than I do as I haven't run into any issues with these on the systems I worked on, but I know a lot of users HAVE had issues with them and I believe they were mostly due to issues with older power plans and chipset drivers.

As I think I mentioned before, you likely also want to be sure you have set ALL of the following in the BIOS.

Cool N' Quiet - Enabled
Core CPPC - Enabled
CPPC preferred cores - Enabled
Advanced (Or Global) C-states - Enabled

Also, I'd install THIS specific Windows 10 AMD chipset driver package if you have not already done so.

https://www.amd.com/en/support/chipsets/amd-socket-am4/b450


And double check that you are actually running the latest BIOS version.
Yes I have that chipset version which enabled AMD Balanced and AMD High Performance modes which I didnt have 2 pages back into this whole debocle. I believe I mentioned I updated the chipset to allow me to use the AMD Power Plans. As of now I have it on High Performance. Same results.

Also yes double checked BIOS is the latest BIOS available for my MOBO which is v1D released 11-11-2019.

Yes when I was running PBO I made sure to also Enable those options you listed, same results.

So I guess, even at stock settings, using a 3rd party cooler, my CPU still hits 81c, which puts it higher than the 80c you say is the max. So even at stock, it doesnt meet thermal compliance. SO idk what else to do then lol.

Mine as well just leave the manual OC on then since at stock is 81c with prime95 and with the OC its 84c lol.
 

Darkbreeze

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Try Ryzen balanced. That is the recommendation I have seen from nearly every reviewer that has looked at this platform. See what happens there.

In fact, try Ryzen balanced, and then go into the advanced plan settings for Ryzen balanced and under Processor power management set the minimum to 8% and make sure the maximum is set to 100%. Cooling policy should be set to active.
 
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Jason H.

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Try Ryzen balanced. That is the recommendation I have seen from nearly every reviewer that has looked at this platform. See what happens there.

In fact, try Ryzen balanced, and then go into the advanced plan settings for Ryzen balanced and under Processor power management set the minimum to 8% and make sure the maximum is set to 100%. Cooling policy should be set to active.
Well I did try balanced, and it gave the same results, so I tried High Performance, which just maxes out the minimum CPU percentage, and it still had the same results so I just left it. But I will try it again with stock settings and see what happens just for sake of it. Brb.
 

Jason H.

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So I ran Prime95 after reverting to stock settings, with all the settings you said to Enable, latest chipset, latest BIOS, 3rd party cooler... same results except in Prime95 the temp gets to 81c which makes the boost clock only 4.1ghz and not the 4.15 we see on cinebench at 77c.
 
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Darkbreeze

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That is the latest AMD chipset driver. AMD has no newer chipset driver available on the AMD website than that.

The one I linked you to on the AMD website shows a release date of 3-19-20.

The chipset driver on the B450 Tomahawk product page shows a release date of 10-22-19.

There is no newer chipset driver than the one on the AMD website. That is THE official chipset driver, above any that are available on motherboard pages.
 
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Jason H.

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That is the latest AMD chipset driver. AMD has no newer chipset driver available on the AMD website than that.

The one I linked you to on the AMD website shows a release date of 3-19-20.

The chipset driver on the B450 Tomahawk product page shows a release date of 10-22-19.

There is no newer chipset driver than the one on the AMD website. That is THE official chipset driver, above any that are available on motherboard pages.
Yea after I typed that I went into my downloads folder and the one you sent me had a (1) next to the file name meaning its the same driver as the one I previously downloaded. Either way the slider bar is gone lol. But idc about it, same driver so I deleted that edit. I downloaded it like 2 days ago straight from AMD.

Sorry man has been such a long week with work and trying to get this figured out lol.

And I have the regular tomahawk B450, not the max. Im thinking this could even be "another reason" why the 3800x doesnt run super good as it had to have the BIOS update to even accomodate the cpu meaning the board wasnt built FOR the cpu, know what I mean?
 

Rogue Leader

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If PBO is off at 77c wouldnt it stay at 3..9ghz and not boost to 4.15? Or is that just the regular PB taking over there?

Im JW how AMD can advertise 4.5ghz max boost clocks, but you need a water cooler with a glaciers worth of ice cubes inside to even keep this CPU at a temp that is even able to just pass 4.15 lol.

Looking like Im going to have to upgrade my cooling, AGAIN lol. Its such a shame I really had high hopes for this one. Even paid 61$ for it off ebay because amazon delayed shipments for a month so I paid like 13$ extra off ebay to get it sooner. Kinda sad that its not what I thought it was lol.

I mean grant it, Im never going to do anything on my PC to get it to go over 75c other than stress testing, but if it aint right, it aint right yano.

On a side note, I should have just optd for the 3700x Im sure with its 65w tdp it runs so much better ... lol

EDIT: I was wondering if my PSU could maybe be holding my CPU back? Its only 550w and my GPU is OC'd and now the CPU. And on some tests Ive ran on my GPU OC using furmark. they say something like Im being limited by "Power"? Almost like something isnt getting enough power to run at full potential. It had the word POWER with a #1 next to it meaning that was a limitation, so idk if that could somehow carry over to the CPU, or if that means Im PSU limited...not sure.. However I had that same reading when I was running my 2600 so..
Darkbreeze has gotten to your questions but I wanted to point out some things. It won't drop to base clocks because PB2 still works, which is similar to a normal turbo mode. The CPU isn't overheating, it just can't boost as high.

You don't need a water cooler with glaciers of ice, I have a 3700x that under gaming PBO can hit almost 4.5ghz, I'm running a Corsair H100i which is not anything crazy. Note that anywhere AMD mentions PBO it mentions it as a feature for those with advanced cooling.

The other thing is you're expecting max boosting under stress testing, stress testing pushes heat limits, you're never going to see max boost performance under it.

And no the PSU won't limit you. If a PSU is not enough it doesn't limit performance, the system crashes/shuts down.
 

Darkbreeze

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I second everything RL said. It's probably worth repeating that for PBO, the max boost clocks are not going to happen for an all core situation like Prime or another utility if it stresses all cores. That's probably only likely, as RL said, for bursts of speed for short periods or when only one or two cores are required. It's rather complex AND reading that article on Ryzen boost behaviors I linked you to at GamersNexus would be helpful I believe, as it's rather comprehensive.
 
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Rogue Leader

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I second everything RL said. It's probably worth repeating that for PBO, the max boost clocks are not going to happen for an all core situation like Prime or another utility if it stresses all cores. That's probably only likely, as RL said, for bursts of speed for short periods or when only one or two cores are required. It's rather complex AND reading that article on Ryzen boost behaviors I linked you to at GamersNexus would be helpful I believe, as it's rather comprehensive.
Yep PBO will boost all cores at once but it won't sustain it, so you won't see that on a test like cinebench at all.
 
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Jason H.

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Darkbreeze has gotten to your questions but I wanted to point out some things. It won't drop to base clocks because PB2 still works, which is similar to a normal turbo mode. The CPU isn't overheating, it just can't boost as high.

You don't need a water cooler with glaciers of ice, I have a 3700x that under gaming PBO can hit almost 4.5ghz, I'm running a Corsair H100i which is not anything crazy. Note that anywhere AMD mentions PBO it mentions it as a feature for those with advanced cooling.

The other thing is you're expecting max boosting under stress testing, stress testing pushes heat limits, you're never going to see max boost performance under it.

And no the PSU won't limit you. If a PSU is not enough it doesn't limit performance, the system crashes/shuts down.
Why didnt you guys mention this before lmao! That makes me worry a lot less.

I mean this all started because I was told my temps were too high. DB said anything over 80c is not rlly acceptable. So we found a cooler within my budget which kept the Prime95 tests at 81c max with stock settings. So we then tried to figure out why isnt my cooler keeping the CPU more cool because he said it should be more cool. So we troubleshooted all that and ended up into this whole PBO scandal lol.

But yea while gaming, 58-68c I get 4.275-4.3ghz, but the temps spike up a bit more I think because PBO is using a higher voltage. With the manual OC it never spikes over 65c. So with this in mind, I will probably just lock my CPU to 4.3ghz manual OC at 1.325v and just call it a day lol. I mean is the 83-84c max I see while running stress tests anything to worry about? Especially if all Im doing is gaming and maybe some light video/music editing?

This whole time I was under the assumption that my PBO just wasnt working properly, and my Prime95 temps were dangerous. And I had no idea (until you remembered the info) that PBO turned off after 70c.

So, knowing now what Im looking to do, WHICH COOLER SHOULD I GET NOW LOL. We just got this one, and it does keep temps a bit lower (not as much as I originally expected though). Im pretty sure I probably cant send this one back now so I would have to bite the bullet and just buy a whole new one again lol.
 
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Rogue Leader

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Why didnt you guys mention this before lmao! That makes me worry a lot less.

I mean this all started because I was told my temps were too high. DB said anything over 80c is not rlly acceptable. So we found a cooler within my budget which kept the Prime95 tests at 81c max with stock settings. So we then tried to figure out why isnt my cooler keeping the CPU more cool because he said it should be more cool. So we troubleshooted all that and ended up into this whole PBO scandal lol.

But yea while gaming, 58-68c I get 4.275-4.3ghz, but the temps spike up a bit more I think because PBO is using a higher voltage. With the manual OC it never spikes over 65c. So with this in mind, I will probably just lock my CPU to 4.3ghz manual OC at 1.325v and just call it a day lol. I mean is the 83-84c max I see while running stress tests anything to worry about? Especially if all Im doing is gaming and maybe some light video/music editing?

This whole time I was under the assumption that my PBO just wasnt working properly, and my Prime95 temps were dangerous. And I had no idea (until you remembered the info) that PBO turned off after 70c.

So, knowing now what Im looking to do, WHICH COOLER SHOULD I GET NOW LOL. We just got this one, and it does keep temps a bit lower (not as much as I originally expected though). Im pretty sure I probably cant send this one back now so I would have to bite the bullet and just buy a whole new one again lol.
Your idle temps were high and the Coolermaster T2 is a sucky cooler, and should not EVER be used for overclocking and never would let PBO work. Your games were spiking into the 80's thats BAD.

However if you're running a stress test and ending up in the low 80's, thats not such a big deal. Keep in mind a stress test is an unrealistic load. Even the most intense game is not gonna beat up on your CPU like that. Also keep in mind in the 80's unless you've manually overclocked it will limit how high you can boost. Hence over 80 is not very acceptable because you're not getting your moneys worth.

But if you're able to game in the 60s and low 70's, you're doing fine.

If you wanted to improve, a GOOD 240 AIO could help. Such as the Corsair H100i, or my personal favorite the Cryorig A40 which is a little hard to get these days, but includes an extra fan for the VRMs. I have the A80 in my gaming system (280mm version otherwise the same) and its excellent. I also have the Corsair in my sim system, also great.

Keep in mind however both will cost you around $140 and if you're stuck with the one you have I don't think you'll get $140 worth of performance improvement. Its up to you.
 
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