r9500p vs. r9600p

[Sarke]

Don't wanna start anything major here, but I'd like to get some feedback on what you guys think of these two cards. ATI's naming is kinda odd as the 9500 is faster (in most cases, but depends on the game) than the 9600 (I know there is a reason for the naming and everything and that there is a dussin smartasses out there who wants to explain why, but I don't really care about that).

Biggest differences are the clocks (9600 is faster there), but the 9500 has twice the pixel pipes and twice the vertex shaders. So is it worth the little extra $$$ for a 9500?

Also, since the 9600 is .13 it should run a little cooler than the 9500 (but it's clocked higher so heat is probably no big difference), how easily is the 9600 OC'ed to roughly 9500 performence? And how OC'able is the 9500?

Prices at my local spend-all-my-money-apart-from-beer-money store (canadian dollars)
$295 ATI Radeon 9500 Pro 128MB DDR AGP8X w/S-Video & DVI-I Box
$265 ATI Radeon 9600 Pro 128MB DDR AGP8X w/S-Video & DVI-I Box

What do you guys think?

btw, I'm talking about these two cards now, so I don't wanna hear anything about 9800 or 5900 or anything else (and yes, i know a ti4200 is a cheaper option) and in the end I don't care if I have a nvidia or ati as long as it is the better card.

And yes, I am aware of the extremely long 9600 post from Grape... (I have read most of it, but as I said, I don't wanna start anything major here)
But the main thing is: which one would you pick for these prices?

 

[Brichy]

R9500 pro is the best option, future games will use the 8 rendering pipelines of the card and the performance will be better

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Pretty simple, ALL the answers to your questions can be found in the thread I started <A HREF="http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=348985#348985" target="_new">HERE</A>

EDIT: Sorry didn't see that last bit in the original post. Forget the above.

They are close to each other, with the 9500P usually taking a bit of a lead in some parts and the 9600P a bit in the others. The main question is are you going to overclock all the time? Are you going to change HSFs? If you are staying stock and don't care about power/heat, then a 9500P is easily your better choice. If you ARE a tweaker then you will need to decide which aspects you think will matter most, and maybe even decide on price/availibility.
And I LIKE th numbering scheme, cuz I can goes ups to peopul like GenticWeapon and say, My carz bettur than urs cuz it's got bigger numberz in da' name!
:tongue:

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/22/03 02:25 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Sarke]

hehe, can't argue with that logic Grape (if it beats GW...) maybe you should benchmark in linux and get an even better score? j/k

and yes, i read most of that thread already (I said that didn't I?)...

btw, did you see game 6 today? wasn't sure they'd pull it of...

anyways, let me rephrase my question: Because the 9500 and 9600 are so close in price, what would be the reason to choose the 9600 over the 9500?

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I would say performance wise there isn't a compeling reason, in MOST cases the 9500P will prevail. In the short term the 9600P may be better in some DX7/8 games simply because of the faster core when overclocked. If you remember the breakdown of the benches between GW and I, the overclocked 9600P bested his overclocked 9500P in the areas that were DX8 dominant, (first 3 tests) but he was about 10% ahead for mother nature. This and a few other comparisons would lead me to believe (without any significant changes from drivers,etc.) that the 9500P is a better long term bet. Also the insane overclock I got from my core/mem can't be good for it long term (although you never know), so I'd say the 9500P will perform better without pushing it as hard.
Now the ONLY reasons to get a 9600P over a 9500P would be heat/power issues. They are both nice cards, and I do like mine, but I think it is what it is, and the 9500P is really a 9700P in sheep's clothing. The main advantage to the 9600P WILL be it's price, there is that slight advantage right now, but it will get even greater when OEM's start producing cards (or at least I would think so). I think they are both in the same league it's just that one is Mickey Mantle the other is Roger Maris. I would say if you are looking for raw performance, and have a GOOD PSU an good cooling, then th 9500P is the better performer. Does the price difference mean much to you? If so then you have to decide whether you can spend the money better elsewhere, because the performance diff. CAN be small if overclocked, but is kinda significant when running at stock speeds.
Sorry I couldn't be more precise (and took so long writing) but I think it isn't a simple answer if you are a tweaker.

Yeah I saw game 6 AWESOME, and I might be in Ottawa for game 7 (flying into Toronto then North Bay tomorrow)

EDIT: Ooops, that's actually TODAY. Fly out today. Freakin' night shifts!

and PS, yeah I saw you mention my thread, that's why I went in and edited the other post right away, I missed the lat part of your thread.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by TheGreatGrapeApe on 05/22/03 03:04 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[endyen]

I dont want to rain on TGGA's parade but i would go with the 9500P. Yeh the 9600P has a newer chip , but it was designed as a midrange chip. The chip in the 9500P was built for better. If you push a little you can expect to go a long time before you get artifacts. If you oc a lot you should end up further ahead. And if you leave it alone you'll have a card for your grandchildren to play on.
I want the senators to get the cup.They had a heck of a regular season esp with the financial preasure.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Actually rain all you want, I have my Golf Umbrella here in my office at work. No problemo.

Actually CHIP wisethe 9600P probably has ALOT more headroom than the 9500P the mid-range/top of the line has little/nothing to do with it, the cores are BBA and rock solid. the 0.13 core probably has the ability to really outshine the 9500P if you ae willing to replace the HSF (sorry I'm not going there until I'm bored with the card), so the chip itself is likely pretty good. The main point I was saying is that for the most part thew 9500P is the better choice, like I said in both posts. But the 9600P does have it's place, be it ever so limited in two different segments.
Anywhoo I doubt the 'mid-range' aspect of the 9600P hampers it as a piece of silicon, it's the design that does. Man what a beutiful piece a 9600P with the same transitor count as a 9500P would be. MMmm toasty.

- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK

 

[GeneticWeapon]

I've never heard of either one of those cards.....

<font color=red>Radeon 9500Pro</font color=red>
3DMark 03 = 4,101
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=775464" target="_new">http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=775464</A>

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Well with everyone cross naming their cards (Why the Heck is an ASUS 9900 an Nvidia Card!?!) I'm not surprised. You see the 9600P is based on an overcloaked (not clocked) NeoMagic chip. The 9500P is an Intel X-t-rude graphics chip with a bios flash to make it think it's a Xabre (therefore halving it's performance). Pretty sad really, They were going to namethem the R300 and the RV350, but it sounded too much like a Trailer Park model type, so they decided instead to give it a name that appeared more like a ZipCode, which is funny for a company from Canukistan. Whereas the Yankee built chips had names that seemed like postal codes letter letter number letter letter numbers.
Talk about a pain in the butt keeping track of all 'dem names/numbers.


- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! <font color=green>RED</font color=green> <font color=red>GREEN</font color=red> :tongue: GA to SK

 

[selfbuilt]

Actually, Firingsquad.com ran a review comparing an o/c 9600 pro with an o/c 9500 Pro and got about equivalent performance (with a slight advantage to the 9600 o/c). The review is here:

<A HREF="http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/radeon_9600_pro_overclocked/default.asp" target="_new">http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/radeon_9600_pro_overclocked/default.asp</A>

Of course, no guarantees for anyone else's o/c experience ... I suspect most would still recommend the 9500 pro to people who don't want to fuss with o/c (unless power issues are a concern, in which case stick with the 9600 pro).

More recently, Firingsquad has also run a review comparing the new Cat 3.4 drivers to the 3.2. Unfortunately, the 9500 pro didn't get as much of a performance boost as the 9600 pro ... which should also help to narrow the gap between the cards slightly. The review is here:

<A HREF="http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/catalyst_3.4/default.asp" target="_new">http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/catalyst_3.4/default.asp</A>

Frankly, I would find it a tough call right now. The 9600 pro has some definite advantages in some games (like Splinter Cell), while the 9500 pro has others (like UT2K3). All other things being equal (e.g. power not an issue, etc), I would probably let the price decide.

Where does good judgement come from? Experience. Where does experience come from? Bad judgement.

 

[Willamette_sucks]

Ah yes Grape, its an OVERCLOAKED NeoMagic chip! And the 9800 Pro is just an overcloaked SEGAGENESISMACHINE times TWO! CAuse da segagenesismachine was ALWAYS Better than teh PAYSTATION! And teh PAYSTATION TOO is just an overcloaked DREAMCATS, and dat one had teh HOUSE OF TEH DEAD GAME, so it was thebest one.

Can anyone tell me, how can i OVERCLOAK my 9800?! I want it to look like a GEEE FOURSE AFFEXX! BEacause nfididia is TA BIZZOMB! ATI sux ballz!

Long live ATI.

 

[confoundicator]

ATI makes graphics cards? I thought an ATI was one of those bank-cash-machines.

<font color=blue>-Toast always lands buttered-side down and cats always land on their feet. So what happens if you strap a piece of toast on the back of a cat and drop it?</font color=blue>

 

[Sarke]

So what you're saying is that I'd be better of OC'ing my nintendo 8-bit and crossconnecting it with my dvdplayer so i can play all the latest games?

I can put it in the freezer can't I? I think that would take care of the heat problem...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Sarke on 05/22/03 03:04 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Tirian]

I've read through this and most of the other threads I can find, but had a few more questions that I didn't see answers for. It looks like the 9500 is the better card for me personally, I won't be OC and won't have power/heat issues.

This one is probably stupid, but what exactly do the Pro cards do that the standard don't? Is it worth spending the extra $30 or so for a Pro series?

Also, it seems that the 9500 series has been discontuined, and I only don't see the ATI cards, only 3rd party cards. Are there any issues with these? I see Sapphire, Atlantis, FIC, and a few other brands. (I need two monitor ports and TV out as well, if that matters.)

Basically, I've come to the conculsion that for less than $200, the 9500(Pro) is the best bet for me, but now I'm just concerned about the specifics. Thanks in advance for any advice, and if you know of a great online deal for one of these, please let me know.

 

[graham_h]

Well thanks to the huge Grape post i'll be getting a 256meg 9600 pro today, and I'll be clocking it too, I'll let you know how I fair.