RACISM in online gaming- how do you feel about it?

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Well I'm glad to say I live in the USA and freedom of speech is highly valued even above the possibility of offending somebody.

I was going to just straight up answer your questions but I feel they are a little loaded or at least mis-worded.

First of all how do you define "racist abuse"? To me that sounds like lynching or beating somebody out of racist motives. But is calling somebody a name abuse? No. (there may me some exceptions but generally no) You seem to be equating racism to physical abuse or making racial comments akin to "pissing in somebodies drunk". If that's the case then isn't it a slap in the face to call somebody an asshole or even a newb? And if so shouldn't those abuses be disallowed? What about an obese person - should it be criminal to call them a fat ass?


Secondly in your list of questions you ask if it's "ok" to do those things. Ok is a fairly subjective term. Personally I don't think it's ever ok to use racist language, but I still feel it should be allowed. I don't agree with making rules and laws based on morals because different people have different morals. I'm defending the right of racists to have their freedom of speech not because I agree with them but because I don't want to myself end up on the minority end of having my freedoms restricted because a majority is offended by the way I think or what I say.

But to try and answer your questions:

Yes, people should be allowed to use racist language in real life and online.

No they really are not different. Sometimes people both online and in real life use racism more for the reaction than their really having those feelings.

Yes people should challenge racism wherever they find (online or real life). But again see my previous point about why people are using racism and use your judgment to determine how much effort it's really worth to challenge them.
 
One question I have to anybody who thinks hate speech should be legislated against - what do you think doing so accomplishes?

Is it to protect other peoples feelings? If that's that case then you are starting down a slippery slope.

Is it to stop people from being racist? If you think so then you are truly delusional. If anything telling people they can't use racist speech will only inspire them to be more racist.

Is it to make it obvious that racism is not ok? If that's the case, then you've already lost the battle. As a parent I would much rather raise my child knowing that they will hear racist things and be able to decide that they are wrong then to go with the "ignorance is bliss" approach and try to shield them from it. Legislating racism is kind of like abstinence only sex-ed. You can try and pretend it's not there and punish those who defy you but in the end human nature guarantees a failure.
 
@Purplerat

You are talking nonsense.

'I don't agree with making rules and laws based on morals because different people have different morals'

This is just a ridiculous statement, that in effect, means you don't agree with 99.9% of laws we have, for these are based upon the same common morality that recognises racism, aswell as other crimes, as morally wrong. This is not country specific, this applies to the lawful world.

Legislation that outlaws racist abuse holds no fear for me, thou dost protest too much.

AC
 
Free speech is an overused term. This isn't politics. If you can't say anything constructive to or about a person then shut your face and stop being a self-centred ass. With regards to racism: why discriminate against another race? Because you "don't like them" means there's something wrong with you, not them. Being black doesn't make you any worse at a job, at interacting with others or anything.
 


Unless you live in a theocracy laws should not be based on morality. In a democracy laws are meant to protect the rights of the citizens. So yes it is country specific. The reason 99.9% of laws are considered moral is because a.) it's generally accepted that it is moral to follow the law and b.) there is a lot of overlap between what people consider moral behavior and what makes for good law. But it's hardly all inclusive. I'd argue that 99.9% of morals are not law (unless of course you live in a theocracy). Just look at the 10 commandments - the supreme morals of the Judeo-Christian world - only 2 out of 10 are common laws which is 80%. And those are for the major morals not even counting all of the minor ones.

And that's because laws (in a democratic society) are meant to protect peoples rights, not to tell them right from wrong. Now in some cases racism should be legislated in order to protect people from discrimination. But not when it comes to free speech. That right trumps protecting people from being offended.

It also really surprises me that people play violent video games would not have a greater respect for the value of free speech. A lot of the same arguments are made for banning violent video games. You say that racist speech is offensive and allowing it makes people numb to racism. How is that different from people who say violent video games are offense and numb people to violence.

AC, you keep using the term "abuse" in relation to racial speech but how do you differentiate that type of abuse from all speech that is offensive? I was always taught that it's moral behavior to not say mean things to anybody. So if we are legislating morality and considering speech as abuse should it be illegal to say anything mean about anybody?
 


I guess I would expect that type attitude to free speech from a moderator :kaola:.

But seriously I don't think freedom of speech should ever be undervalued. It's not just some pop-term that should easily be brushed aside. I think a lot of people are numb to the importance of being able to say what you want - even if it's idiotic, offensive and completely wrong - without fear of legal ramifications.

I'd much rather live in a place where somebody can say whatever dumb *** they want and I can tell them what a dumb ass they are than have to live in a place where nobody can say anything without worrying about getting hauled into court.


With regards to racism: why discriminate against another race? Because you "don't like them" means there's something wrong with you, not them. Being black doesn't make you any worse at a job, at interacting with others or anything.
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See, this is the issue with discussing such topics. People get emotional about it and ignore what's really being said. Nobody in this thread, as far as I can tell, is advocating racism. We don't need to be told why racism is bad and that's not even the topic. By mixing the topic of free speech and why racism is bad it almost makes it out to be if you support freedom of speech, even for racist, then you must not understand why racism is bad. I find that to be more offensive than anything anybody else has said in this discussion.


Just something else I want to add is how flawed the idea is that if you limit racist speech it somehow reduces racism. That's completely untrue. Some of the worst racist I know are people who would never use a racially offensive term and would balk at any racist speech. But if they come to a light in a black neighborhood they without thought lock the doors of their care almost instantly. There is a lot more damaging racism that goes on silently than what can be said.
 
@Purplerat

You are wrong again. Laws are based on the common morality in a democracy and are arguably based on common morality in a theocracy too (as that faith is likely to influence the common morality). You can be law abiding but still lack morals.

Your argument is circular. You say that laws are not there to tell you right from wrong, they are there to protect your rights. What is accepted as a persons 'right' comes from the common morality upon which laws are largely based which ensure a persons rights are respected. Laws are there to tell you right from wrong in the society you live in and they do come from the common morality.

When I said it's not country specific, I meant that this is how legislation is constructed in most countries of the world except dictatorships, where the common morality is superceded by a controlling state. Individual laws are, of course, country specific.

In my opinion, the concept of free speech breaks down when it is abused by thugs. Free speech is intended for ensuring everybody is heard, it is not a shield with which to hide behind when making racist comments.

AC
 

AC,

There are lots of laws which have absolutely no moral basis and there are even more commonly held morals which are not legislated at all. But rather than argue about why we have laws I'm going to try to stick to the topic.

You keep on using phrases like "the concept of free speech breaks down when it is abused by thugs" but I'd really like to hear where you think the line should be drawn. Should all hurtful speech not be protected? And what do you really think is being accomplished by not allowing racist speech?

Take the emotion out of the subject for a few seconds and really think through what you are suggesting, especially when it comes to something as important as free speech. I'm not saying you have to/will change your mind but at least think it through enough to answer a couple of basic questions.

Not to take it too far off topic but I personally draw a comparison to the death penalty. Like outlawing racist speech, capital punishment seems like a really good idea when you give it short term emotional consideration. But once I give it some logical thought and ask questions like "how do you carry it out?" or "what are you really trying to accomplish?" I find I have a much different opinion. Trust me, when I hear hate speech my gut reaction is those people should be arrested and beaten. But ultimately you're doing a lot more harm going that route than any good.
 
When it comes to free speech you cant have it both ways. As soon as you limit anyones free speech, no one then has it.
You cant say people cannot be racist, because its offensive. No Free speech, someone has as much right to be racist as someone does to be anti-racist.
You can stick anything in there too like Sexism or whatever, it doesent matter.

Have you ever stopped to think, that Anti-Racism might offend Racists? Ever stopped to think that the racists of the world might want to be able to speak their mind, and not be presecuted by anti-racists for their views?

And to all you "perfect" anti-racists out there. Go on a london tube, see a muslim kid sat on his own with a backpack. Yeah your thinking it too.
 
*** ing *****."

Most whites in America are like this. It's shameful for me to say, but America may be one of the most racist countries that isn't in Europe or Asia.
 
*** ing nigg ers."

Most whites in America are like this. It's shameful for me to say, but America may be one of the most racist countries that isn't in Europe or Asia.
 
*** ing nigg ers."

Most whites in America are like this. It's shameful for me to say, but America may be one of the most racist countries that isn't in Europe or Asia.
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Yea, we yanks can tell, all the EU and Asian countries with their black heads of state, and blacks being a minority and all, hey, then how Obama get elected....... someone must have voted for him
 


Obama is only half black aka Bi-Racial. And to your point...Other nations can criticize us for our racial problems, but they don't deal with nearly as many different cultures in one Country as we do. I like how duckroll painted most of us "whites" with that broad brush of being racists. This isn't the 1860's that we are living in. Yes, some people have prejudice, but at least 52% of Americans can see past the hypocrisy.
 
*** ing nigg ers."

Most whites in America are like this. It's shameful for me to say, but America may be one of the most racist countries that isn't in Europe or Asia.
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With the exception of Rednecks I'd say Australia is probably worse. Not to blacks though, mostly those of Middle-Eastern and Indian descent.
 
*** ing nigg ers."

Most whites in America are like this. It's shameful for me to say, but America may be one of the most racist countries that isn't in Europe or Asia.
Click to expand...

I really hope you are trying to be ironic and don't seriously think that. If not, well your comment speaks for itself.
 
FWIW, I don't think in General, America is better/worse than any other country in this regard, unfortunately it seems to be present in many countries who should know better.

But they do have a black president, which shows that many can see past a person's skin colour and as a nation they do have a phenomonal capacity for change, adaptation and acceptance.

Perhaps we need to look to America to spearhead attitude change?

AC
 
did the mute button ever cross your mind? i hate the racism too and i try to avoid it cuz its not only wrong but annoying cuz most people that do use it purposely use it excessively just because they can. after years of playing online they only thing that really works is either being racist back to them just to shut them up(not cuz your actually racist but unlike innocent people who get profiled THEY deserve it!) or just mute them. No company is gonna do anything about it unless the govt intervenes cuz money rules the world and if a racist is willing to pay money to talk foolish ignorant jabber on the internet, there will always be people there to sell it to them!
 
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