Razer Green Switches: Don't Call Them Kailh

[scolaner]

I'm glad there is much discussion here, even where I disagree. However, I want to put something to bed here before I reply to anything else:

Let me explicitly and unequivocally state for the record that we do not, under any circumstances, accept money nor any other form of incentive from any company, ever, for anything related to editorial content.

 

[Gab___]

I'm glad there is much discussion here, even where I disagree. However, I want to put something to bed here before I reply to anything else:

Let me explicitly and unequivocally state for the record that we do not, under any circumstances, accept money nor any other form of incentive from any company, ever, for anything related to editorial content.

So you're telling me Tomshardware shills out of the goodness of their hearts then? Because there's no way this article is anything other than an advertisement for Razer.

 

[RedJaron]

Gentlemen,

You're welcome to debate Razer's products, their merits and faults, and similar things. We encourage it even. We only ask you keep it civil and that you be ready to defend your points with good supporting facts and evidence. We also ask that you attack an argument, not the person.

I will not tolerate attacks against the staff or their journalistic integrity. The next person suggesting they are on the take, getting paid by company X, or any other such thing will get a one-way ticket out of town. First, last, and only warning.

Companies and manufacturers make announcements all the time. Someone writing up an article talking about it is nothing new. Such articles typically include copious quotes from the mfr and thus their marketing team which made the announcement. This is called basic reporting. It's no different than if someone announces a new CPU or GPU and claims it's twice as fast as anything on the market. I hope you can see the difference between someone reporting the claim has been made rather than stating that claim as fact.

 

[jimmysmitty]

I'm glad there is much discussion here, even where I disagree. However, I want to put something to bed here before I reply to anything else:

Let me explicitly and unequivocally state for the record that we do not, under any circumstances, accept money nor any other form of incentive from any company, ever, for anything related to editorial content.

So you're telling me Tomshardware shills out of the goodness of their hearts then? Because there's no way this article is anything other than an advertisement for Razer.

Toms gets no kick back for anything. The writers may write a certain way about a product they like rather than others but there is no bias and there is no payment from the companies to write. The only "payment" at all is that some companies do send samples for testing but pretty much any site gets those same samples when a company wants their product to be shown off. And a lot of times that sample ends up getting sent back to the company as they are normally ES grade and not final consumer grade parts.

Honestly why do people still think Toms is paid by anyone? I have seen it being accused of being paid/biased for pretty much every company just because the author or article doesn't present the opinions that that person has.

 

[scolaner]

What here is "biased crap"? Can you make some specific examples? Or are you just letting your own biases against Razer to come through?

Oh boy, where to start?
They're testing Razer provided products, on testing equipment provided by, you guessed it, Razer. That should be your first red flag.

They claim to have multiple manufactures, yet every single Razer brand switch also has Kailh branding. Either Kailh convinced another manufacturer to use their logo, or the multiple manufacturer claim is bogus.

Intense Quality assurance is immediately debunked by countless customer reviews. (See:https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/3atkzt/psaim_sensing_a_pattern_here_with_razer_keyboards/)

Yet the article states "Intense Quality Control" factually, where as an unbiased article would mention the countless failures and inconsistencies in their KAILH brand switch.


This article is just Razer trying to save face for all the bad press they've been getting for switching to a cheaper, crappier switch, without it reflecting in the price.

Friend, your comments make me think that you didn't really read the article, or at least you didn't digest it. Let me try and address some of your (and others') more valid concerns.

The machine we used to test was provided by Razer, but it's not MADE by Razer. They did make that little box, but that was for convenience. (I did take it apart to examine it, BTW.) After Razer suggested that we not try and test on actual keyboards -- they were concerned about inaccuracy -- we of course did it anyway. Turns out, they were right. After running multiple tests on multiple keyboards, we found that the measurements weren't consistent.

Every single switch does NOT have Kailh branding. None of the recent gear I've had in house has it, and anyway, Razer told me that it's incidental -- some batches have it, some don't. (Now THAT, to me, is a potential red flag. However, given the QC measures Razer has in place, I'm less concerned about it.)

To my knowledge, there is no documentation on the alleged inconsistencies of Kailh switches. All I've ever seen about that is hearsay. Therefore, I'm not prepared to say anything definitively negative or positive about the quality or consistency of Kailh switches (nor Cherry switches, nor any other switches, for that matter).

I can say that in my many conversations with people in and around the keyboard industry, the common refrain that "Cherry is the best, everything else is cheap" does not hold true.

I do not mean to disregard user feedback. It's powerful and important, and the TH community, incidentally, is a wonderful source for that, as you guys are typically better-informed and experienced than the average Joe. But I'm not comfortable drawing too many hard conclusions from anecdotal comments on Reddit or anywhere else.

More importantly, bear in mind that in this article, I'm discussing ONLY the Razer Green switch. Not the software, not the LEDs, etc. So when I noted the QC procedures, that pertains just to the switches. Many of the complaints you're referencing pertain to other issues.

I'm also not sure where this "opinion" issue is coming from. What opinion? That the QC measures on the switches are strong? I suppose you could call that an opinion...that is to say, you can take those same facts and opine that those aren't good QC measures, I guess. But this is why I presented the facts of it...if I wrote, "Razer has really good QC, zomg, just trust me on that," you should be suspicious. That's not at all what I did here.

Further, towards any claims of bias or skullduggery: You'll note that in the test on a Razer-provided machine and a Razer-provided switch, we found (and wrote) that one aspect of the travel actually didn't meet Razer's own spec!

Even so, we're not making any strong claims about the switch travel because we only had the one switch to work with. And I specifically stated that you CAN'T extrapolate from that; it's anecdotal, not statistically significant.

This is the larger point I wish to make, after having had to write all of the above (and noting that there are several new forum members on this comment thread): One of the things that makes TH great is the strong, knowledgeable community. Where some sites have killed comments sections altogether, we actively engage. You guys force us to be on our toes. We can never take shortcuts, because you guys will always find them. It's an iron sharpening iron sort of thing.

However, that only works when readers actually read the articles before commenting. And there's a constructive way to criticize us and our content. Accusing us of being on the take is just...such a tired, old, pointless trope. Name-calling is unproductive (and get you banned pretty fast).

Instead, take what we write and scrutinize it. Discuss, engage, hold us to standards of journalistic integrity and technical accuracy. We welcome that. It makes us better.

 

[ziggyx]

I will not tolerate attacks against the staff or their journalistic integrity. The next person suggesting they are on the take, getting paid by company X, or any other such thing will get a one-way ticket out of town. First, last, and only warning.

By all means, keep things civil, but integrity loses all of it's meaning when it cannot be questioned. You cannot dispute that having a policy censoring such questioning makes you look complicit in the alleged behavior.

Honestly why do people still think Toms is paid by anyone? I have seen it being accused of being paid/biased for pretty much every company just because the author or article doesn't present the opinions that that person has.

The "why" of it is pretty simple. It's just how immature journalism is often perceived; tech journalists in particular because the details can quickly get them in over their heads.

Take a young enthusiastic writer who speaks of an experience where, unbeknownst to him/herself, was wooed by a company into being excited or impressed by something they have no experiential reference for or really don't understand. Add some references to mystery informational sources or inclusion of commentary or data that has no attributable source (i.e. secret factories/suppliers). And finally, throw in a presumptuous article title -- I mean, bait people if you must, but if the title of your article presupposes a particular bias or an "unsettling" of common perceptions -- then you're asking for mass suspicion.

Here's a good tip for tech journalists looking to challenge the status quo: Ambiguity; never make a conclusion -- even in the title. Present your research and let your readers make up their minds for themselves. And if you don't understand the data or how to analyze it, then get an expert opinion unless you like being debunked in public forums.

 

[Take_Out]

All mechanical switch keyboard makers except Corsair had to come up with something besides Cherry, cause Corsair has the rights to the RGB light on the Cherry switch. It is a BIG deal, I have spent 50 hours replacing LED colors on MaxKeyboard (best) keyboards to have my custom colors for my gaming preferences.

That is why everyone claims they want their own way to do it. They just can't get the RGB that works good. I have had not one LED go out on my keyboard in 1 1/2 yrs of 8hr a day use gaming. Maxkeyboards TKL are super but expensive.

 

[RedJaron]

By all means, keep things civil, but integrity loses all of it's meaning when it cannot be questioned. You cannot dispute that having a policy censoring such questioning makes you look complicit in the alleged behavior.

If you want to question it, go ahead. But if you want to bring up integrity, that also requires you to provide evidence of your claims. You want to say Seth, me, and others are getting paid by mfrs to favorably review their stuff? Prove it. Get some evidence. Go ahead, show me anywhere in my mboard reviews where I unfairly slammed or praised one mfr over another. Otherwise it's a bunch of slander/libel and hearsay and that's against the agreement you signed when you made an account here.

If you want to have your own internal misgivings, I can't stop you and of course I wouldn't try. But don't publicly post them without anything to back them up. And really, if you don't trust the people writing here, why stay around? Why would you want to get tech news from places you consider unreliable and biased sources?

 

[ziggyx]

By all means, keep things civil, but integrity loses all of it's meaning when it cannot be questioned. You cannot dispute that having a policy censoring such questioning makes you look complicit in the alleged behavior.

If you want to question it, go ahead. But if you want to bring up integrity, that also requires you to provide evidence of your claims. You want to say Seth, me, and others are getting paid by mfrs to favorably review their stuff? Prove it. Get some evidence. Go ahead, show me anywhere in my mboard reviews where I unfairly slammed or praised one mfr over another. Otherwise it's a bunch of slander/libel and hearsay and that's against the agreement you signed when you made an account here.

Alleging bias and alleging acceptance of payment for pronouncing bias are two very different allegations. If the former is censor-able, I'll see myself out...as will any sensible person...not that TH should care, this website makes revenue from advertisers, not forum commenters.

If you want to have your own internal misgivings, I can't stop you and of course I wouldn't try. But don't publicly post them without anything to back them up. And really, if you don't trust the people writing here, why stay around? Why would you want to get tech news from places you consider unreliable and biased sources?

It's very nice that you're willing to not censor or stop my internal dialog, thank you human, I do appreciate the respectable candor you allow me in my discussions.

And I'm not here to "get my tech news." I'm here to provide levity to a high search ranking discussion/article so that the companies who are honest with their customers, and are deserving of support and promotion, continue to see new customers and produce high quality products -- instead of the companies who have a track record of misleading and deceiving people intentionally with their super-speed gold-plated connectors.

 

[Saga Lout]

By all means, keep things civil, but integrity loses all of it's meaning when it cannot be questioned. You cannot dispute that having a policy censoring such questioning makes you look complicit in the alleged behavior.

If you want to question it, go ahead. But if you want to bring up integrity, that also requires you to provide evidence of your claims. You want to say Seth, me, and others are getting paid by mfrs to favorably review their stuff? Prove it. Get some evidence. Go ahead, show me anywhere in my mboard reviews where I unfairly slammed or praised one mfr over another. Otherwise it's a bunch of slander/libel and hearsay and that's against the agreement you signed when you made an account here.

Alleging bias and alleging acceptance of payment for pronouncing bias are two very different allegations. If the former is censor-able, I'll see myself out...as will any sensible person...not that TH should care, this website makes revenue from advertisers, not forum commenters.

If you want to have your own internal misgivings, I can't stop you and of course I wouldn't try. But don't publicly post them without anything to back them up. And really, if you don't trust the people writing here, why stay around? Why would you want to get tech news from places you consider unreliable and biased sources?

It's very nice that you're willing to not censor or stop my internal dialog, thank you human, I do appreciate the respectable candor you allow me in my discussions.

And I'm not here to "get my tech news." I'm here to provide levity to a high search ranking discussion/article so that the companies who are honest with their customers, and are deserving of support and promotion, continue to see new customers and produce high quality products -- instead of the companies who have a track record of misleading and deceiving people intentionally with their super-speed gold-plated connectors.

You're here because you opened an account one minute and launched into this thread the next. Seems to me that first post of yours was prepared before your account was opened - it cuoldn't have been put together and posted a minute after you arrived here. Quite coincidental is it not? Do you have a particular interest in any company or more than one?

There is no censorship policy here but all we ask is for civil discussions with verifiable facts. If you read some threads, you'll find uninformed comment backed up by fanboyism based voting and comments and the Moderation Team has to decide which remains on the Forum and what is taken down. Occasionally we get it wrong but as far as the Editorial staff are concerned, they're as independent as any in the industry

 

[RedJaron]

Alleging bias and alleging acceptance of payment for pronouncing bias are two very different allegations.

Doesn't make an iota of difference in the context here. If you want to question the credibility of an article or a writer, then provide facts, proof, and evidence of it. Point out what is wrong and most importantly why. Throwing around insults like calling someone a hack or a shill is not tolerated. Getting snarky with the mods and staff is also frowned upon. I have no use for crybullies who want to taunt and aggravate others but then act the victim when the hammer comes down on them. There's no room for that behavior here.

And I'm not here to "get my tech news." I'm here to provide levity to a high search ranking discussion/article so that the companies who are honest with their customers, and are deserving of support and promotion, continue to see new customers and produce high quality products -- instead of the companies who have a track record of misleading and deceiving people intentionally with their super-speed gold-plated connectors.

Levity would imply humor or light-heartedness and you've provided neither. All you've brought is bile, pot stirring, and a complete lack of any support for your many allegations and suggestions. And now you're even claiming that you're only here to run interference for and against the companies you deem (un)worthy. So why shouldn't someone else apply your own questioning back at you? What here suggests you're not completely prejudiced for or against some companies? Who or what appointed you king, judge, or jury to decide which company is or is not deserving? You toss around "tips" for how journalists should act, but why do you feel you're qualified to give them? You talk about debunking but you haven't proved a single thing.

If you want to treat this forum as your own personal crusade battleground against Razer or any other company/manufacturer, I suggest you take it elsewhere.

 

[ziggyx]

You're here because you opened an account one minute and launched into this thread the next. Seems to me that first post of yours was prepared before your account was opened - it cuoldn't have been put together and posted a minute after you arrived here. Quite coincidental is it not? Do you have a particular interest in any company or more than one?

It's coincidental that I wrote a response into the comment box and then created an account when prompted? Isn't that how most people become members here or are commenting privileges reserved only for people who register 36.5 days before they post their first comment?

There is no censorship policy here but all we ask is for civil discussions with verifiable facts. If you read some threads, you'll find uninformed comment backed up by fanboyism based voting and comments and the Moderation Team has to decide which remains on the Forum and what is taken down. Occasionally we get it wrong but as far as the Editorial staff are concerned, they're as independent as any in the industry

I can back up everything I've said, just ask, but make sure you've read MY comments and are addressing them directly instead of blaming me for the chosen words of others who may share similar skepticism, but who are not as considerate of boundaries as I am.

 

[ziggyx]

Alleging bias and alleging acceptance of payment for pronouncing bias are two very different allegations.

Doesn't make an iota of difference in the context here. If you want to question the credibility of an article or a writer, then provide facts, proof, and evidence of it. Point out what is wrong and most importantly why. Throwing around insults like calling someone a hack or a shill is not tolerated. Getting snarky with the mods and staff is also frowned upon. I have no use for crybullies who want to taunt and aggravate others but then act the victim when the hammer comes down on them. There's no room for that behavior here.

The difference is skepticism versus libel.

Also, I did point out what is wrong and did provide facts. Did you not read my initial comment? It's rather obvious you are confusing me for another commenter at this point, as I have not made any insults or acted disrespectful to a mod. I did poke fun at your very strange comment about my right to "internal misgivings", that was hilarious. Laugh at yourself already, you're turning to stone. How's that for levity?

And I'm not here to "get my tech news." I'm here to provide levity to a high search ranking discussion/article so that the companies who are honest with their customers, and are deserving of support and promotion, continue to see new customers and produce high quality products -- instead of the companies who have a track record of misleading and deceiving people intentionally with their super-speed gold-plated connectors.

Levity would imply humor or light-heartedness and you've provided neither. All you've brought is bile, pot stirring, and a complete lack of any support for your many allegations and suggestions. And now you're even claiming that you're only here to run interference for and against the companies you deem (un)worthy. So why shouldn't someone else apply your own questioning back at you? What here suggests you're not completely prejudiced for or against some companies? Who or what appointed you king, judge, or jury to decide which company is or is not deserving? You toss around "tips" for how journalists should act, but why do you feel you're qualified to give them? You talk about debunking but you haven't proved a single thing.

If you want to treat this forum as your own personal crusade battleground against Razer or any other company/manufacturer, I suggest you take it elsewhere.[/quotemsg]

Once again, you seem to be confusing me with more disrespectful and uncouth commenters. I generally don't have the patience for most forums because of broad-handed moderation that commonly discourages controversy and accountability. I'm more than happy to account for everything I've posted here if not already done so, so just ask...specifically about my comments. Don't make me into your punching bag because you don't like the trend in the response among commenters.

Btw, I stand by my criticism of Kyle's writing style. If he wants to challenge my assessment of it, then I'd be happy to discuss it with him. My feeling at this point is that Kyle isn't a dummy, and realizes what I'm saying has validity and from my previous comments probably knows engaging me will be very challenging and might not paint him in the best light, otherwise he would have responded to me already.

 

[Saga Lout]

OK I'm asking. Put up or shut up and remember, attack only the post and not the poster

 

[ccampy]

I'd argree on the quality if Razer product's be less then perfect know 3 people who hve had Razer mice fail one of whom is on his 4th mouse in 2 years the other 2 have had 2 each

 

[ziggyx]

OK I'm asking. Put up or shut up and remember, attack only the post and not the poster

Asking what specifically about which of my comments?

 

[Saga Lout]

OK if you want hardball and keep asking the same question, try giving substantive proof of every statement you've made in this thread. Alternatively, don't bother to post at all.

 

[ziggyx]

OK if you want hardball and keep asking the same question, try giving substantive proof of every statement you've made in this thread. Alternatively, don't bother to post at all.

Please be decently respectable and quote what is unclear or unsubstantiated. I'm not going to be bullied into repeating myself.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

OK if you want hardball and keep asking the same question, try giving substantive proof of every statement you've made in this thread. Alternatively, don't bother to post at all.

Please be decently respectable and quote what is unclear or unsubstantiated. I'm not going to be bullied into repeating myself.

What you're doing is something I've seen before, you're being passively rude. It's a way of trying to keep a mellow tone while still wooing to cause anger or frustration in another. If I may quote you, first you say, "I have not made any insults or acted disrespectful to a mod." Then, two sentences later, you say, "That was hilarious. Laugh at yourself already, you're turning to stone. How's that for levity?" Which is actually quite rude.

I study philosophy and partake in philosophical debates weekly. Your behavior is indicative of one I have studied, one in which you pretend to be laughing only to merit anger in the mod. I've seen it many times before, people say things are really funny or pretend to chuckle even when they're upset to provide a false impression that they're are not upset, in order to turn the tides against their antagonist. They try to give this impression of, "You cannot faze me".

 

[jimmysmitty]

OK if you want hardball and keep asking the same question, try giving substantive proof of every statement you've made in this thread. Alternatively, don't bother to post at all.

Please be decently respectable and quote what is unclear or unsubstantiated. I'm not going to be bullied into repeating myself.

Well one thing for sure is that you like breaking rules. Upvoting your own post is against the rules, hence why you can't do it unless you bypass the post in a certain way.

You also like to call the author a "Razormouthpiece" since he doesn't agree with your point of view, especially since you have some sort of inside information. I assume you have physically been in the assembly plants or happen to know of more that is going on internally at Razer than anyone else? Please do tell your secrets.

And no, I am not paid by Razer (I moderate for free) and I do not own anything from Razer (K95 RGB and G502) as I do not like their cloud based driver solution.

That said the article is literally just about the switches, not the actual products. That is because Cherrys patent ran out and now everyone is making their own and the people need to be informed. What better way that to test them out against the tried and true Cherry MX?

You know, I have an idea. Since you know more than any of us, tell us everything. Go buy the products, do all the testing and compare it to the others out there. I shall wait.

 

[turkey3_scratch]

OK if you want hardball and keep asking the same question, try giving substantive proof of every statement you've made in this thread. Alternatively, don't bother to post at all.

Please be decently respectable and quote what is unclear or unsubstantiated. I'm not going to be bullied into repeating myself.

-Snip-

Should not Toms have server-side verification of upvoting one's own post? It seems it must only be client-side.