News Report: Intel Pushing ATX12VO Power Connector for 12th Gen Alder Lake CPUs

[ginthegit]

Modern ATX PSUs provide 3.3V and 5V from DC-DC converters powered from the 12V rail and have been doing so for nearly 10 years because group-regulated PSUs couldn't reliably cope with the large load transients of modern CPUs and GPUs. The only difference between a 12VO and regular ATX PSU is that 12VO gets rid of those extra converters and bumps the 5VSB rail to 12VSB which should make them more reliable since there are fewer potential points of failure and more room inside the PSU for spacing out components and improve airflow to keep everything even cooler, more efficient and reliable.

Will you just stop, enthusiast boards are not run and never will be run by DC to DC converters simply on their power envolope and design, they peak at efficiency at half load, that is it. Intel based chips and their 12VO powersupplies are poor choice for Gamers and Office workers alike power wise. They suck power like their is no tomorrow, but because Intel nut cases like yourself worship Intel as the God of Processors, you will never admit that your God can lie.

You keep coming out with unproven heresay comments that, lets face it, are only true because Intel used dodgy business paractice in the past to fix FS, lenovo etc and most OEMs to them. If they didn't they would not be even able to make the business they have today. Simple fact, they made (like Microsoft) tons of money from false advertising, hampering compilers and locking in OEM manufacturers to exclusive contracts. The last point alone is the only reason why there are so many of the ever failing 12VO power supplies out there. Laptops that use them also have to throttle the components so that the bloody things do cause an over heat (not of the components) of the DC to DC converters.

You have read a few Por intel Partisan articles claiming the normal lies they always spew, and when I ask for actual evidence, its the same shill argument, "I dont need to, there is plenty out there!". Shame I can't find much that isnt partisan.. But I can show you plenty of threads talking about how quickly the 12VO supplies fail and how expensive they are to replace (for a lesser tech with throttling applied).

Look up the Patent man, it is clear that it is OEM based, and the reason why it never took off in the past was because of its cost, Motherboard based solutions and complex routing, and because AMD knows that it is a half true Gimmick.

I can also give you several datasheets of Actual DC to DC converter chips from various manufacturers that not only prove my point, but largely (after 26 years) have not improved except for size.

you offer on the other hand , 0 unbiased evidence.

 

[Olle P]

Why 20V? ... with 20V nominal and 18-25V input tolerance, you can power things directly from a laptop's 6S battery pack...

If a completely new standard is to be implemented there's no reason to stick with 6S batteries. One could just as well have the new laptops feature 8S batteries.

For one, power distribution. The more you can spread out how much a current a cable has to carry to other cables, the better. Otherwise you have to make the cables thicker, which not only presents mechanical issues, but also cost concerns.

As for cost it's cheaper to have one length of thick wire than four lengths of same quality 1/4 area wire.
I also fail to see in what way having more cables should otherwise be "better".

Do you charge your Phone at 21v...

Sorry, my mistake. The USB-C standard is "only" 20V.

 

[InvalidError]

If a completely new standard is to be implemented there's no reason to stick with 6S batteries. One could just as well have the new laptops feature 8S batteries.

Higher power distribution voltages make sense for relatively constant heavy loads to reduce I2R losses and wiring heating that exacerbates I2R losses. However, when you increase the switching voltage, you also need higher voltage FETs which typically come with higher gate drive requirements and overall switching losses that reduce efficiency under light loads. With most components in a laptop typically being in lower power states most of the time while on battery, it makes more sense to optimize for light-load efficiency. 20V(-ish) is a happy in-between place: high enough to provide meaningfully better efficiency under heavy load, low enough not to ruin efficiency for light loads.

 

[ginthegit]

If a completely new standard is to be implemented there's no reason to stick with 6S batteries. One could just as well have the new laptops feature 8S batteries.

As for cost it's cheaper to have one length of thick wire than four lengths of same quality 1/4 area wire.
I also fail to see in what way having more cables should otherwise be "better".

Sorry, my mistake. The USB-C standard is "only" 20V.

I think you are getting mixed up here between Wattage and Voltage. A new fast charger is rated at 5v and 4A and Power (watts) = Voltage (V) x Current (amps). So i think you mean that 5V x 4A = 20 Watts. There is a big difference between Wattage and Voltage. So 20W I can understand, not 20V!

As for the Wire issue. 4 Smaller wires is better than one larger one. This is to do with losses as well as Surface area. Common belief is that drift velocity of electrons in wires is proportional to the cross sectional area of the wire, which is not true. Electrons and its reactionary Magnetic force only flow through and around the surface of the metals. You can prove this by having solid wires of the same radius vs tubing of the same radius, have the same current, but there are two problems using hollow wire. 1 it does not bend without deformation and 2 it is crap with thermals. One big wire does have better thermal properties, but it is also subject to more external electroagntic noise. Single core wire is useful for protoyping and hardwaring installations, but the Multicore equivalent is preferable because of the surface area.

New standards do not always = better technology. The whole argument here is about whether 12VO is even a good standard for general PC's. The trade off for 12VO means a few fewer wires, but more complex Motherboard PCB's who have to design into the motherboard, not only a Frequency based clocking solution with capacitive banks, but depending on the power required needs to dissipate more heat. We have also argued over efficiency, where in theory (under certain loads and demands) DC to DC concerters can wield 93%, but as with all tech, Intel likes to toute the best case stats rather than be honest and say that this efficiency varies with load. From what I have read and seen by datasheets, the DC to DC converters are at best efficiency when they are run at 50% of their designed load, and how often is this happening in the case of Computers running. Office computers are 25-40% depending on types of menial tasks, and enthusiasts are a 70 to 90%.
Cosidering that a good PSU now on the best standard using induction can get to 95%, I am not sure I see much advatage in any of the adoptions of a technology that was patented in 1995, and futhermore only set to run OEM machines that would run low power (which Intels new chips simply are not on the most part) Thermal Dissipation design does not equal power usage, it is a limit based on design.

 

[InvalidError]

I think you are getting mixed up here between Wattage and Voltage. A new fast charger is rated at 5v and 4A and Power (watts) = Voltage (V) x Current (amps). So i think you mean that 5V x 4A = 20 Watts. There is a big difference between Wattage and Voltage. So 20W I can understand, not 20V!

USB-PD and Qualcomm's QuickCharge 4.0 go up to 20V 5A which is 100W while QuickCharge 2.0 & 3.0 go up to 12V 3A.

 

[ginthegit]

USB-PD and Qualcomm's QuickCharge 4.0 go up to 20V 5A which is 100W while QuickCharge 2.0 & 3.0 go up to 12V 3A.

Its a good thing that i don't go for qualcom then. Considering that my 4000mAh phone on 5v and 4A charges in just over an hour at 20W, again this is overkill technology, and completely pointless. The Batteries will wear out very quickly, but I guess they dont really care when people change their phones ever year or so. But again Pointless Tech that is not needed. When the old phones used to take 3 hours to charge, I could see the point, but this is both battery damaging and pointless to the sake of fast charge for no reason.
But yes, you are correct, it is indeed as you say, and I am shaking my head at the disbelief of this technology being driven in a "Green new Deal world." But I guess that mental cases are calling the shots for gimmicks and shortcut tech. Can't say I am not surprised. At least the military dont have this mentality. People will pay for anything these days.

More pointless tech in the name of progress.

 

[Olle P]

As for the Wire issue. 4 Smaller wires is better than one larger one. ... Electrons and its reactionary Magnetic force only flow through and around the surface of the metals. ...

For improved conductivity and mechanical flexibility one should of course use wires with many strands rather than a single or a few. Having multiple separated cables, each with their own insulation, won't improve conductivity further but will increase the cost.

 

[InvalidError]

Its a good thing that i don't go for qualcom then. Considering that my 4000mAh phone on 5v and 4A charges in just over an hour at 20W, again this is overkill technology, and completely pointless.

The 240W spec isn't about charging phones though, it is about being able to use a single power brick to power a laptop (100+W these days for gaming models) + external monitor(s) (20-50W a pop depending on size and brightness), peripherals and, seemingly most important to many modern PC builders, RGB.

For improved conductivity and mechanical flexibility one should of course use wires with many strands rather than a single or a few. Having multiple separated cables, each with their own insulation, won't improve conductivity further but will increase the cost.

And more individual insulation also means a bigger and stiffer cable overall. Welder cables can be surprisingly flexible despite how thick they need to be to handle 150-200A thanks to being made from fine wire strands.