Report: Sony's PS4 Orbis Dev Kit Runs on Modified AMD A10

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[citation][nom]kriskory[/nom]256gb SSD and they are moving toward a more affordable console at launch? a 500gb regular HD would be more affordable, one would think.Its interesting that it runs on a A10 apu though, would that make it to the final ps4 though? I dont see how the A10 could drive games at 1080p native resolution which is what the ps4 should be doing?[/citation]
Retail a 500GB HDD is ~$80 with razor thin margins, while a slow 256GB SSD is ~$150 with high margins. My bet is that they can talk the SSD price down pretty far, and the HDD price would probably stay about the same after a bulk discount. Plus the SSD will give the 'next gen' user experience that people are expecting, while laptop HDD tech really has not gotten all that much faster over the last few years.

Keep in mind too that HDD means extra metal and space for airflow for cooling, while an SSD means less power usage on the PSU, less metal needed for cooling, less space needed for heat exchange, and no drive noise; all very important things when the demand for small quiet systems is so high as they are now.
 

hapkido

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I'm not ok with 30fps. But I also don't play consoles games anymore.

There used to be a time when consoles were better than similarly priced PCs. Thankfully those days are gone.
 
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WiiU is SSD. 8gb or 32. It may be low but as SSD drops in price over years they can up the memory or just sell more expensive models.
 

DRosencraft

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From the way people are talking here it's as if no one has ever heard of a laptop with an A10 AND a dedicated graphics card. Why are we assuming they're going with the A10 for the integrated GPU and not for the fact that it's a good CPU option with number crunching at a low power cost?
 

Camikazi

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[citation][nom]emike09[/nom]You're kidding right??? We're talking RAM, not storage. The iPhone 5 has 1GB of RAM and 16/32/64GB of Storage. You're confusing Ram (memory) with storage.[/citation]
Yea and flash storage still doesn't cost $100 for 16GB, his point is still valid they hugely upcharge every little thing.
 
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My guess would be that the A10 will have not only a better GPU than the standard processor (400 stream processors or more), but that it will also use XDR2 ram like many other console processors. DDR3 still has lower bandwidth than XDR2, which also has more bandwidth than the faster-than-DDR3 GDDR5 used in high end graphics cards. To re-iterate : XDR2 faster than GDDR5 faster than DDR3. Not only that, but Sony has experience with XDR in other devices *cough* PS3 *cough*. In consoles, code is much more efficient, so the common bottleneck is memory, not the GPU or the CPU.

As for the SSD, this is likely to overcome the common bottleneck experiences with harddrive storage. This is not as big of an issue in PC hardware, but again, consoles are much more specialized and it is important to keep the pipelines fed, otherwise performance suffers.

As for all of this framerate nonsense, it will most likely support 60 FPS for NTSC output with no 3D effects, and at 30 FPS with 3D enabled (provided you have a TV or monitor that supports 3D).

To throw a reasonable guess out for pricing, the base model will set you back 300$, while having the least storage and likely no blu-ray drive, and models with higher storage capacity will range between there and 500$
 

tacobravo

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I wonder if they are gonna use hybrid crossfire? The APU is alone good enough for 1080p but not all games will run at 60 fps like they want.
 

aggroboy

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[citation][nom]hapkido[/nom]I'm not ok with 30fps. But I also don't play consoles games anymore.There used to be a time when consoles were better than similarly priced PCs. Thankfully those days are gone.[/citation]
It's been that way for past console cycles (PS1, PS2 and X360 beat out midrange PCs at time of launch). This time seems to be different.
 

falchard

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I think APUs are genious if you want to get a product out under $500. However, the A10 alone might not have the graphics horsepower to go beyond what PC gaming is capable of. Maybe if they paired the A10 with a matching 6670 it would be a viable setup.

Unlike in PCs, if you design a platform around the hardware you can do some pretty incredible stuff with AMD opposed to Intel or ARM.
 

alextheblue

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[citation][nom]DRosencraft[/nom]From the way people are talking here it's as if no one has ever heard of a laptop with an A10 AND a dedicated graphics card. Why are we assuming they're going with the A10 for the integrated GPU and not for the fact that it's a good CPU option with number crunching at a low power cost?[/citation]If they're using low-power variants, such as those found in Sleekbooks, they could even use two A10-4655M chips. They could also be throwing in one or more low power discrete GPUs. Or both. Anyway, I doubt they'll be using traditional crossfire. It's a console so they don't need to be concerned about sticking only to existing rendering methods. The GPUs could be working on things independently, as needed by the devs.[citation][nom]kog91[/nom]My guess would be that the A10 will have not only a better GPU than the standard processor (400 stream processors or more), but that it will also use XDR2 ram like many other console processors. DDR3 still has lower bandwidth than XDR2, which also has more bandwidth than the faster-than-DDR3 GDDR5 used in high end graphics cards. To re-iterate : XDR2 faster than GDDR5 faster than DDR3. Not only that, but Sony has experience with XDR in other devices *cough* PS3 *cough*. In consoles, code is much more efficient, so the common bottleneck is memory, not the GPU or the CPU.[/citation]XDR2 will cost significantly more. Traditional x86 CPUs aren't bottlenecked by memory. Even dual channel DDR3-1600 is PLENTY fast for the Piledriver CPU cores. On the other hand, the GPUs need tons of bandwidth. So the best thing to do would be to use DDR3 for the CPU side, and give the VLIW4 GPU cores their own fast GDDR5. This would give an aggregate bandwidth better than a shared XDR2 option without bottlenecking, and it would be fairly cheap.

I don't think they're using enough GPU cores to be bottlenecked by GDDR5, given a reasonably wide bus. If they were using really highend GPUs, maybe. Like a 79xx or 680. But they're not. If they achieve anywhere NEAR that level of performance, it would be using multiple GPUs with their own memory buses, so once again GDDR5 would be sufficient.
 

kog91

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[citation][nom]alextheblue[/nom]If they're using low-power variants, such as those found in Sleekbooks, they could even use two A10-4655M chips. They could also be throwing in one or more low power discrete GPUs. Or both. Anyway, I doubt they'll be using traditional crossfire. It's a console so they don't need to be concerned about sticking only to existing rendering methods. The GPUs could be working on things independently, as needed by the devs.XDR2 will cost significantly more. Traditional x86 CPUs aren't bottlenecked by memory. Even dual channel DDR3-1600 is PLENTY fast for the Piledriver CPU cores. On the other hand, the GPUs need tons of bandwidth. So the best thing to do would be to use DDR3 for the CPU side, and give the VLIW4 GPU cores their own fast GDDR5. This would give an aggregate bandwidth better than a shared XDR2 option without bottlenecking, and it would be fairly cheap.I don't think they're using enough GPU cores to be bottlenecked by GDDR5, given a reasonably wide bus. If they were using really highend GPUs, maybe. Like a 79xx or 680. But they're not. If they achieve anywhere NEAR that level of performance, it would be using multiple GPUs with their own memory buses, so once again GDDR5 would be sufficient.[/citation]

Okay, there are a few things wrong with this.

First, the A10 has a shared memory bus between the GPU and CPU. Because of this, it is physically impossible for a system to use two different kinds of memory, with one for the GPU and one for the CPU.

Second, believe it or not, all processors are in one way or another bottlenecked by RAM. In a perfect world, RAM would be as fast as the cache memory that is on the processor die. Unfortunately, SRAM uses significantly more die area for the same capacity as DRAM, and at the same clockspeeds uses more power and generates more heat. SRAM is also more expensive to manufacturer than DRAM otherwise we would have got rid of DRAM long ago.

Third, regardless of whether the CPU cores are being bottlenecked by the RAM on their own, once they share the bus with the GPU, all bottlenecks are far more present. In fact, the bandwidth supplied by the RAM yields significant effects on graphics performance. This can be seen when you go from running a Trinity chip with DDR3-1333 to DDR3-1866. Because XDR has a very different bus structure than SDRAM (Yes DDR is still SDRAM) it is able to achieve much greater bandwidth and performance, at lower power than DDR3. It is also a technology that both AMD and Sony own licenses to.

There is also a possibility that AMD will use on-chip eDRAM like it chose for the Wii U.

You should also know that as a Computer Engineer, I don't take kindly to being told I'm wrong about hardware ;)
 

kinggraves

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Yet again no one here seems to understand that PC parts are not the same parts used in a console so comparing them is absurd. The CPU/GPU used are custom made to fit in a low power/low heat scenario.

An APU is a better choice for a console than for a PC. There is not as much demand for CPU processing on a console since they aren't running the background procs that Windows runs. Unused CPU can be reassigned for more GPU power on graphics heavy games while still offering the CPU power on less graphics heavy highly computational games. A custom OS can be built that can take more advantage of Trinity's unique processing than Windows can.

The only problem I see is that game devs might find it difficult to dev games for an APU console, costing Sony 3rd party titles they need to stay relevant. I also still doubt Sony will go the cheap route this time since I'd expect them to want to claim their new console can do 4k res to help move the new 4k Sony TVs. I also expected a BDXL drive for similar reasons. That's how they justify taking heavy losses on consoles, they help market the other Sony products and formats.
 

dimar

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I really hope this APU setup could get the system cool enough for the fan to spin extremely quietly. My PS3 slim noise is noticeable when watching movies during quiet moments. PS3 online bought titles compatibility with PS4 would be the other thing to consider.
 
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I am tired of people saying that "lolol __gb of ram is only 40 bucks on newegg". Its not like you can smack a DIMM into anything.
 

Mathos

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As far as the RAM goes, it depends on what sony can get the actual memory chips for. You have to remember the console won't have memory slots like a PC does, they'll be attached directly to the memory bus on the mainboard. It also depends on how custom the a10 is. If it's custom enough it could get support for different memory types. On the other hand if it's a stock low power a10 it could be a good thing for us PC gamers.

It would mean that console games would already be mostly coded for common PC hardware, and it wouldn't take much to translate them to windows/mac titles, with improved graphics and more bells and whistles. Now as far as the GPU goes my guess would be the IGP takes over during low demand graphics and movies. When low power draw is needed. We've heard rumors that the thing has two GPUs set up that way. And that a discrete GPU made for the console would take over during games.
 

kog91

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[citation][nom]teodoreh[/nom]Maybe the tweak has to do with the memory controller. How about GDDR5 and not DDR3?[/citation]

Not likely. GDDR5 and DDR3 may come from common routes and standards, but the architectures are very different. Also, GDDR5 has a much higher bus clock than DDR3. Combine those two things, and AMD would have to completely rework their memory controller to work with GDDR5.

The other issue with GDDR5 is cost. While DDR3 has reached all-time lows, GDDR5 is still much more expensive as it is less widely used (pretty much discrete graphics cards only). If Sony's true goal is reducing manufacturing cost, they would be better off sticking with DDR3, while also asking AMD to add eDRAM as a sort of L3 cache/scratchpad memory for the A10. This would not require a memory controller redesign and would instead require the addition of eDRAM and power routing to the APU die.
 

Scar89

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More ram, well its about time. The amount in the current consoles is tiny. Maybe now we will see some AA titles with higher res textures and better draw distance.
Has anyone noticed how recent games seem to have sucky looking water eg, no realtime reflections/refractions(BF3, Skyrim, Borderlands 2). Crysis from 5 years ago still beats most games in that department.
 

falchard

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Cost becomes an issue. Neither Kepler or Ivy Bridge have a competitive low wattage part similiar to the A10 in Graphics rendering. In games the CPU is not as important as the GPU. Also such a system would increase costs several hundred dollars with an overrall performance hit.
 

alidan

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[citation][nom]hapkido[/nom]I'm not ok with 30fps. But I also don't play consoles games anymore.There used to be a time when consoles were better than similarly priced PCs. Thankfully those days are gone.[/citation]

driving games, they must be at 60fps
fast paced shooters (as in non military, think unreal) must be 60fps
games like devil may cry i believe should be 60fps (fast paced action games) though they locked it to 30 for the up coming game, and it has issues because of it.

when a game isnt an extreamly fast game, 30fps or 60 fps barely matters in a playability sense. but at the same time that 30 frame difference may be the difference between a game looking good and a game standing out.

keep in mind, i barely play console games anymore. i try to get my games over 30fps but i wont sacrifice some graphical elements to do so.
 

anthemambient

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RAM is considerably cheap--8 GB for $40 and 16 GB for $70. Would be a nice feature if the PS4's RAM could be upgraded like the HDD in PS3. Not opening the shell but having a removable cover-side to install more RAM. I'm just concerned that SSD is still expensive with not much space available like its predecessor.

How is Sony going to balance this out?
 
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