News RTX 4090 Gets Just 16 FPS in Cyberpunk 2077 RT Overdrive Preview

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PlaneInTheSky

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Is that what you said when gaming transitioned from 2D to 3D?

Are we seriously arguing the difference between 2D and 3D is comparable between RTX ON/OFF?

Seriously, I can't even tell the difference between the RTX ON/OFF shots. And this is from official Tomb Raider promotional videos showing off RTX.

I would have to literally pause my game and sit there for 2 minutes trying to find the differences.

gfhfghfhfhfh.jpg


dgfhdhdhdhdh.jpg
 
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InvalidError

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I often think the non-raytraced versions of games actually look better.
Visual details in modern games are getting out of hand. When you have to do side-by-side pixel-peeping to try telling the difference between which image was rendered at what detail level, there is no point in obsessing over running the higher detail level for normal game play.
 
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Visual details in modern games are getting out of hand. When you have to do side-by-side pixel-peeping to try telling the difference between which image was rendered at what detail level, there is no point in obsessing over running the higher detail level for normal game play.

Same can be said for 4K vs 8K UHD IMO. I use OLED panels both for gaming and my home theater and the visual quality is astounding. There's only so much the eye can see and the differences (if they can be seen) between 4K and 8K aren't worth the price.
 

gold333

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I'm surprised people care so much for the tiny difference in visual detail that RTX gives but are oblivious to enabling the built in 3D sound in CP2077 (on any PC with any audio solution).

Most people don't know you can hear people above and below you using normal headphones.

And everyone I know doesn't pay Microsoft 30$ to enable Dolby 3D sound in Windows but uses the open source and free Hesuvi to tab through any 3D output profile they like (Dolby 3D, Atmos, Sonic, Real3D, etc. etc.)

The sound scape difference in CP2077 when using the built in 3D (and using Hesuvi / 30$ Microsoft fee to enable it in the first place in Windows) vs the non 3D sound is like a difference between 720p and 4K. Let alone RTX on and Off.
 
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anti-aliasing took years to develop only to end up offering 16 fps for $2k+ graphics cards?
Metro Exodus runs on my $800 RTX 3080 at 45 FPS in 4k and max settings, so I don't really know what you're talking about, and I suspect neither do you.

Maybe you're too young to remember SSAA. It was one of the first anti-aliasing methods ever released, and it worked by rendering the game at a higher internal resolution. Kind of like rendering a 1080p game at 4k, then downscaling the frame back to 1080p to eliminate jaggies. SSAA came in different flavors, such as 2x, 4x, and 8x. I've seen 16x, but that was extremely rare, considering the improvement over 8x was almost non-existent.

Needless to say, the performance impact was (and still is) massive. Most people stayed with 2x, while 8x was often reserved for older games running on newer hardware that could handle rendering those simpler scenes at 8 time the native resolution. For the record, 4k is 4 times the resolution of 1080p. Over the decades, people have tried getting anti-aliasing without the performance penalty. We finally achieved it in 2009 with FXAA. Nowadays there are many games that simply enable anti-aliasing without giving players the option to turn it off, simply because the performance impact has now become negligible.

and what do you have to say to technologies such as chromatic aberration that majority don't like yet are imposed upon them?
Chromatic aberration has little to no impact on performance and can be turned off in a lot of games, even on consoles. What else is there to say, and how is it relevant to this discussion?

and how are you using the word "RAPID" to describe advancement rate of RT?
I'm not. I used the word "rapid" to describe advancements in computer graphics in general. Ray tracing is just one of many new technologies in use nowadays that have been introduced relatively recently. It was first introduced in 2018 by Nvidia in response to Microsoft introducing the DXR (DirectX Raytracing) feature in DirectX 12.

And ray tracing isn't even that new in and of itself. The idea has been around since before computers even existed in the 16th century, and was first used in computers in 1968. Since then it's been used extensively for movies and even video games. Except ray tracing is very computationally expensive, so until DXR/RTX our only experience with ray tracing in games came from lightmaps made by using ray tracing to precompute lights and shadows in a statically illuminated scene, a process known as "baking".

So when people say "RTX ON doesn't look any better than RTX OFF", what they're really saying is: "dynamic ray tracing doesn't look better than static ray tracing", which is kind of dumb. That's like saying a frame rendered at 60 FPS doesn't look any better than a frame that was rendered over the weekend. Of course it doesn't. But who would play a game where each frame takes several days to render?

RT should've stayed in the labs until common sense decided it was ready. Yet it exists NOW in the industry, offering very little, asking for a lot (money and power), benefiting basically no one but virtual needs of rich, moron and corporate slaves.
And what makes you think ray tracing isn't ready? Because one game decided to crank all parameters to beyond the current limits?

The neat thing about ray tracing is that you can scale its settings to infinity if you want. 5 bounces and 3 rays per pixels isn't pretty enough? How about 1024 rays per pixel and 65 000 bounces per ray? I guarantee you won't find a GPU that can run those settings at over 1 FPS for many many years.

You sound like some kid complaining that games should never have transitioned to 3D because someone decided to render a game at 16k and needed a $2000 GPU to do so and still only achieved 13 FPS.
 
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gold333

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Remember more Nvidia "technologies" that were the latest and greatest thing before being abandoned in a year or two:

"Nvidia Fur"
"Nvidia God Rays"
"Dynamic Tesselation"
"DSR"
"MFAA"
"PCSS"
"TXAA"
"HBAO+"
"RTX ?"

etc

They were all fads to sell graphics cards and the tech is all abandoned now, no new games use it because the ecosystems (hardware and developer partnership buy offs) have died out for those old technologies.
 
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Are we seriously arguing the difference between 2D and 3D is comparable between RTX ON/OFF?
No, we are not. We are arguing that every technology was expensive to render and underutilized when it was new. That includes RTX.

Seriously, I can't even tell the difference between the RTX ON/OFF shots. And this is from official Tomb Raider promotional videos showing off RTX.

I would have to literally pause my game and sit there for 2 minutes trying to find the differences.
So you're another one of those who can't tell the difference between one ray traced image and another. Well done.

The difference is that one screenshot took several minutes to hours to render (RTX OFF), while the other rendered within 16 milliseconds (RTX ON). It's the same kind of technique that allowed the PS1 to render this beauty in 1997 (This is RTX ON, by the way):
maxresdefault.jpg



And now that you know the difference lies in "pre-rendered" vs "rendered in-engine", you can easily notice the difference if you look at the people's shadows. For example, those kids in the first screenshots don't have a shadow. Meanwhile, the people in the second screenshot have consistently sharp shadows, while their shadows in RTX ON gets blurrier the farther they are from their source.

Which one looks better? That depends on your tastes, but RTX ON is obviously more realistic.

But at the end of the day, whether you can see the difference or not is irrelevant. Ray tracing is here to stay, whether you like it or not. Why? Because it greatly simplifies and accelerates game development. The improved visuals is just a nice-to-have side effect. Literally the only reason why games don't require RTX yet, is because the industry still wants to earn money from those who can't afford a shiny new GPU (yet).
 
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InvalidError

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No, we are not. We are arguing that every technology was expensive to render and underutilized when it was new. That includes RTX.
Back then, you could get chips twice as powerful for half the price every other year, so a massive increase in graphics quality was only three or four years away from trickling all the way down to the low-end. Today, the low-end has barely moved from where it was 5-6 years ago and performance per dollar across the rest of the product stacks has gone nearly stagnant too.

Buying into the new gaming graphics feature hype is a hard thing to do when affordability looks like it is going to be 10+ years away.
 
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mo_osk

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Back then we still had to wait 2 generation of card to fully exploit the QIII engine and yet we are still taking about its "secret" algorithm and how fast it was. We also had to suffer almost half a decade of <Mod Edit> or half baked 3D games. I just feel like people have no idea about what innovation is and how gradually it becomes part of mainstream technology. Because we can't immediately enjoy it a full performance or see an obvious advantage ray tracing is a useless gimmick? That's just BS...
 
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InvalidError

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Then you need to get your eyes checked...
If you go watch LTT's RTX on vs off blind-test, many people cannot tell which is which and on many occasions, many preferred the non-RT output. "Getting your eyes checked" won't necessarily result in successfully picking RT on vs off in a blind test on titles and scenes you aren't extremely familiar with, nor preferring RT on over off.

From what I have seen of RT on vs off, I generally prefer more uniform, non-realistic lighting in non-RT mode.

BTW, in the case of Plane's posted images, I cannot tell the difference either besides the scenes not being setup quite exactly the same. The red and green spotlight in the Mexicana scene look different only because they are aimed differently between images, not because of RT on/off quality differences.
 
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deNameMo

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If you go watch LTT's RTX on vs off blind-test, many people cannot tell which is which and on many occasions, many preferred the non-RT output. "Getting your eyes checked" won't necessarily result in successfully picking RT on vs off in a blind test on titles and scenes you aren't extremely familiar with, nor preferring RT on over off.

From what I have seen of RT on vs off, I generally prefer more uniform, non-realistic lighting in non-RT mode.
In the beginning yes, but nowadays, it's very much noticeable. There are lots of games where I would rather turn rt medium on with DLSS at 3440x1440 on my 2060 than play normally. Control is an example where contact rt (glas etc.) can definitely be noticeable. More recent games are really better suited.
 
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in_the_loop

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So, 4090 is getting maybe 16~24 fps at 4K native. Dropping to 1080p native would probably get 3-4 times that performance, and then Frame Generation give you another ~50% is what I'd guess (it could be more). If a 4090 can get 60~70 fps at 1080p native without FG, that would probably put a 3080 12GB at roughly half that level of performance. Turn on DLSS upscaling and I'd guess 1080p will be very playable, and 1440p should still break 30 fps.

But there are 40-series exclusive functions that the 3080 can't use like Shader Execution Reordering and other stuff.
I mean, it simply won't be possible to translate how much slower it would run on the 3080 without the hardware support for these functions.

On the other hand I saw that DLSS3 accelerated it like madly up to something like 120 fps with performance settings for DLSS.
Taking that and halving it you probably get into 4070-ti territory. If the 3080 would have had all the functions and DLSS2 that would have put it at maybe 35 fps at 4k and probably up above 50 fps at 1440p,
But that is if it would have had things like SRE and other of the new RT-stuff that the 40-series have.
On the other hand it is said that there will be lots of different peformance settings with different levels for RT and maybe there will be settings that makes it clearly playable on the 3080, well beyond the meager 30 fps...
 
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in_the_loop

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LTT did a test, and most of his staff could not tell raytraced vs non-raytraced settings apart in games.

I often think the non-raytraced versions of games actually look better. The raytraced shadows often look softer than the rasterized ones and they lose character.

You might think raytracing amazing, and more power to you if you enjoy it, but not everyone likes it.

To me raytracing offers small and meaningless differences, it doesn't improve the enjoyment of my game, and the hit on performance is not justifiable for me at all.


Done in May 2021, almost 2 years old video.
Totally irrelevant today when RT is much, much more noticeable. I mean one of the games used in that old video is "Shadow of the tombraider" where raytracing makes no difference at all. ANd minecraft etc...
Worst kind of example of bad RT....
 
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in_the_loop

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Are we seriously arguing the difference between 2D and 3D is comparable between RTX ON/OFF?

Seriously, I can't even tell the difference between the RTX ON/OFF shots. And this is from official Tomb Raider promotional videos showing off RTX.

I would have to literally pause my game and sit there for 2 minutes trying to find the differences.

gfhfghfhfhfh.jpg


dgfhdhdhdhdh.jpg

The old Tomb Raider is the absolutely worst kind of example of Raytracing that you can find.
You very well know that there isn't any kind of difference in RT On/Off in that game so that is what you show if you hate raytracing.
Lot's of trashing against RT going on from people who either can't afford a better Nvidia Card or people who are using Radeon cards.
 
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elforeign

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LTT did a test, and most of his staff could not tell raytraced vs non-raytraced settings apart in games.

I often think the non-raytraced versions of games actually look better. The raytraced shadows often look softer than the rasterized ones and they lose character.

You might think raytracing amazing, and more power to you if you enjoy it, but not everyone likes it.

To me raytracing offers small and meaningless differences, it doesn't improve the enjoyment of my game, and the hit on performance is not justifiable for me at all.


I hardly see where your argument furthers the discussion. The option for you to enable it is there, no one is forcing you to use it.
 
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elforeign

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Who is the target audience of this? Moron who buy 4090 only to satisfy his pathetic sense of "superiority" to "lowly" console gamer? Is this the target audience of tech industry these days?

OK? Sounds like a personal problem. No one forces you to use raytracing, the games all function normally without it.
 
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Mascot_

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I can hardly tell.
What games have you been playing? If you can't tell the difference in e.g. Minecraft, then I have a hard time believing you have actually played the path traced version.

Granted, that is an extreme example in that it's fully path traced, but my experience is that even games like Control benefit hugely from raytracing in a way screenshots fail to convey. I played it on a 2080ti back in the day, being not terribly impressed. Then I watched someone stream it and wondered why the game looked so... wrong, for lack of a better term. After a while I realized they were playing without raytracing and thus many "this is how brains expect light to work" cues were missing as a result of it. I didn't realize how much of a difference it made until it was taken away.

I would be astonished if path tracing isn't the default within my lifetime. I'm fairly old.
 

neojack

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I'm surprised people care so much for the tiny difference in visual detail that RTX gives but are oblivious to enabling the built in 3D sound in CP2077 (on any PC with any audio solution).

Most people don't know you can hear people above and below you using normal headphones.

And everyone I know doesn't pay Microsoft 30$ to enable Dolby 3D sound in Windows but uses the open source and free Hesuvi to tab through any 3D output profile they like (Dolby 3D, Atmos, Sonic, Real3D, etc. etc.)

The sound scape difference in CP2077 when using the built in 3D (and using Hesuvi / 30$ Microsoft fee to enable it in the first place in Windows) vs the non 3D sound is like a difference between 720p and 4K. Let alone RTX on and Off.


I dont think anyone here reacted to your post, but i didn't know about this software. I just installed and configured Equalizer APO + hesuvi, and downloaded to demo video to check the difference. Man you are right what a difference ! I have good gear (Philips Fidelio X2 headphones + Soundblaster Z audio card) and i believed i got the best sound reasonably possible on PC. I was wrong ! Sofware optimization is important too ! it's incredible thanks !
 

KyaraM

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What games have you been playing? If you can't tell the difference in e.g. Minecraft, then I have a hard time believing you have actually played the path traced version.

Granted, that is an extreme example in that it's fully path traced, but my experience is that even games like Control benefit hugely from raytracing in a way screenshots fail to convey. I played it on a 2080ti back in the day, being not terribly impressed. Then I watched someone stream it and wondered why the game looked so... wrong, for lack of a better term. After a while I realized they were playing without raytracing and thus many "this is how brains expect light to work" cues were missing as a result of it. I didn't realize how much of a difference it made until it was taken away.

I would be astonished if path tracing isn't the default within my lifetime. I'm fairly old.
If it's only about RT visibility, there are huge differences in Hogwarts Legacy between RT on and off, too. Now, I'm not saying it's a fantastic example of a raytraced game; it's simply too overdone in certain areas (for example, I'm pretty sure a wooden table in real life does not light up like a lightbulb when sunlight hits it, unless it has a serious level of finish applied to it, which I doubt would be the case in a bar... of the castle interior outright glittering in some areas). But in other areas, you will see a believable effect where it makes sense, like water or reflectins in general. The point is, though. You can most definitely see RT in the game.
 
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Deleted member 2928070

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If this was the mentality when Quake 3 came out and ran at like 20-30fps @ 800x600 where would we be today? The companies weren't any "poorer" back then, they were still multi-billion dollar companies.
Software and hardware companies show demos. They make us aspire to own these capabilities in future generations, and hope developers see where they should be pushing their products to get to in 2, 3, 5 years!

Just because a a RTX4090 running on a $4000, $5000 or more PC looks VERY cool doesn't mean you are not allowed to enjoy your budget gaming rig you threw together for $700\800 to play CyberPunk. Dude, just enjoy what you have and know that your budget build in 3\4 years will likely be doing what this demo shows today...

Yeah, because since 2018 ray tracing definitely totally became accessible to everyone, for sure.
 
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Deleted member 2928070

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Stop complaining about the "rich gamers" instead of thanking them for funding your future of better affordable realism in games.

I wonder, in 2021, were you praising miners for "funding our future"? Very cheap indeed graphic cards these days.
 
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