Second Take: Did Piracy Kill Iron Lore?

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Nope. It's kinda obvious, whether a product is pirated or not, the "real" sales should also be higher, if the product is pirated a lot. Because it basically means that the product is popular. Like D2, or Warcraft 3. Even if they are quite pirated, it still made Blizzard millions.

This means Titan Quest didn't sell well, it's a part of the reason they lost some income, but not the ONLY reason. End of story.
 
I think the 80-85% figure is fair. I honestly do not know anyone who buys PC games at the moment and that includes a lot of hardcore PC gamers I know.

Pretty much the only games I buy these days are ones that are played online.

Why do I not buy many games anymore? 95% of PC games give me about 5 hours of entertainment before I get bored of them. It has nothing to do with DRM or anything like that.

Having seen the total sales figures for 2007 I can easily imagine that the PC market may be composed almost exclusively of online games and console ports in the very near future.
 
You know, what MikosNZ said reminded me of something..... That's why MMORPG and/or other MMO's started appearing like crazy in Asia.... It's primarily because these games CANNOT be pirated! Primarily you can recopy the installation again and again but you cannot fool the pay scheme of such games.......

I think the only good idea to stop piracy is for companies to stop treating the people who will buy their game as criminals, it's just to be able to stop hackers who will crack their game.
 
I wonder if Ben or Rob have actually even played Titan Quest or Immortal Throne? If you played it or searched the Titan Quest forums a bit you'd have a better idea of the whole story and not just some bologna that the publisher fed you.

There are probably many reasons why Iron Lore went under but the first and foremost reason that I would give would be their crappy publisher, THQ. The game was horribly underfunded in both support and marketing. Titan Quest seriously has SO MUCH potential. It is better than Diablo 2 in every way possible. Just think of Diablo + Diablo 2 with improved graphics and removing every annoying part of Diablo (like repairing items, buying scrolls of town portal, losing gear when you die until you retrieve corpse) and you get Titan Quest. Another thing worth mentioning is the powerful mod tools and art manager built into the game allowing people to create their own levels and modify skins for characters and npcs.

It doesn't surprise me that THQ would point fingers at piracy to take the focus away from themselves. Maybe if they had done a little more to support their game like actually release a patch for Immortal Throne that would fix the plethora of bugs in it then word of mouth would have influenced more people to buy the game. Maybe if they had spent some more money advertising the game or getting more copies on shelves then it would have sold better. For those who haven't played TQ, go pick up a copy of the gold edition from Wal Mart for like $25 (includes TQ and IT expansion). If you liked Diablo 2 at all then you won't be disappointed. Even with the lag bug in IT among other bugs, it is still a very fun game. I originally downloaded the game because I knew nothing about it other than that it was similar to Diablo. After playing through I decided that it was definitely worth my money, despite knowing that THQ would likely never fund further patches for the game. I've seen posts from Iron Lore developers in Titan Quest forums and I can tell you that it was THQ that stopped Iron Lore from working further on Titan Quest. Instead of continuing their gold mine of a project (Titan Quest) they abandoned it for other projects which will never see the light of day.

It really bugs me to see Rob and Ben jump on this whole bandwagon of piracy being the culprit to everything instead of actually looking into things. Sure, if those that pirated had bought the game then they would have made more money. However, there's no guarantee that people that pirate would buy the game regardless of whether they could pirate it or not. Diablo 2 was pirated more than Titan Quest by far. So why was it so successful? Because Blizzard does a kick-A job of promoting and supporting their games. Not only do they release very polished games but continually strive to make improvements to them. They STILL release patches for Diablo 2 and STILL have their servers up and running for online play.

My point is that game and software piracy is a factor for all publishers and developers. Why do some succeed while others fail? Its certainly not due to increased DRM as we saw with bioshock for PC. Make a good game that scales well on various machines, let people know about it, and continually support it. These are just some of the ingredients to a successful PC game.
 
Well, I have to say that I disagree with Rob (sorry dude). I have pirated games in the past, but I ALWAYS buy the game if I like it, and this incident with Iron Lore really did make me think that, if I want to continue playing games on my PC, I really need to buy as many PC games as I can. I've even been buying up copies of older games that I downloaded. My friends who all play on consoles, however, do pirate games and they sure don't buy them after. I think people really need to face the fact that consumers these days are far more technologically proficient than the industry gives them credit for. My parents couldn't set the clock on their VCR way back when I was a young tyke. Flash forward 30 years and the tyke down the street knows how to download game after game, how to burn the dvd and how to find and install a no-cd crack. It's just easier on the pc is all. Another reason that I downloaded games when I was younger, was the fact that I could use a crack and not have to insert the cd every time. Lazy I know - I just having access to all of my games without ever getting up. So, I love Steam. I can play every game that I've bought from Valve without ever messing around with cd's. If that's the way the industry wants to go, I'm all for it!

I think The Witcher is one of the great examples of how to do a PC-only game right. They put a lot of work into making a quality product to begin with, and have been consistent in their efforts to improve the quality of the game through patches. Now they are going to add to the game through downloadable content that will still yet improve the performance of the game. That's service. Just like Valve who are constantly trying to improve their games. Honestly, if every company had the work ethic that Valve and CD Projekt have, I would never download anything. When it comes to anything from Valve, Infinity Ward, Ubisoft Montreal, and Epic, I don't think twice about buying their products because I know it'll be good.

The sad fact is that gaming is going the way of Hollywood. When I was really young I bought every game in the Sierra and Lucasarts catalogue because they were awesome and I knew that people had put their blood, sweat and tears into their production. Since going mainstream, gaming has devolved into easily accessible tripe with brainless gameplay and instant gratification. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of modern games (I've played Bioshock from start to finish at least 10 times already), but I'm starting to feel like the industry has become so focused on money that it's time to give up gaming. Sorry - this is a bit of a rant - I just don't want to see PC gaming disappear. Still the appearance of Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed for the PC make me think that there's still life in the old girl yet!
 
Totally agree with winkgood. Often I see publishers of games I never heard of blaming pirates for poor sales figures. Yet no one has been able to show proper figures as too how many copies have been installed compared to the amount sold. Also taking into consideration that games may be sold on, i.e. second hand.
Second guessing estimated sale figures based on wishful thinking would never work in any other industry.
 
I have never heard of Titan's Quest or Iron Lore????

Nobody is going to pirate what is not even on the radar. You can't blame piracy on the failure of this business. The graphics don't look that good either.
 
BS, I think its extream that they blame the bad knockoff copys, they crashed every 4 min ... or 10 :S still crashed... awfull to play. Besides no MP in pirated v.

Edit*
Those who "stole" it was not going to buy the game anyway :S ? so... make better games numnutts
 

Yeah gr8 games to


what ? :S who is waiting for those games :S no serius gamer anyway haha
 
i think of myself as a gamer.. i play halflife2/counterstrike source etc.
i've never heard of iron lore😛

is it really a top tier game?
 
This is a bunch of crap, they had so much copy protection on there that when I went to pirate it I couldn't even play it. Arrrrrrrr the loot was cursed there matey!

Seriously, when theres enough copy protection on there to stop the pirates, everybody loses. There has to be a better way. And before anyone says anything, I pirate to try no-name games. Yes, I own CoD 4.
 
While one downloaded copy does not mean one lost sale, it could mean that since there is a pirated copy available there are significantly fewer people buying the game. I really don't like hearing people justify stealing games and supporting communities who think it's okay to steal games and make them available for others.

The fact remains: If we assume that 50% of the copies of Titan's Quest are pirated versions, that means that Iron Lore's profits are potentially cut in half. If even half of those people had decided to purchase the game instead, it would increase Iron Lore's profit by 50%. There is no retail business in the world that can operate in an environment where they plan to lose half their sales to theft.

On the other hand, music companies are now coping with the fact that a growing number of people don't like downloading music that contains DRM. Game companies are also getting wise, and if you can't create a business plan that deals with and manages piracy in a way that doesn't alienate potential buyers then you are going to sink.

A final thought: there are enough demo's of games out that you shouldn't be justifying the piracy of a game just so you can 'try it out'. Piracy is theft always.
 
Titan Quest is an extremely repetitive game that makes it quite boring to play. I think they could have spent a little more time in development to bring a title to market that was unique...but it wasn't.

Shifting the blame on pirates...sorry, the game sucked. I am sure that contributed to losses but I played (and purchased) the first one and didn't want to play the second. Online play was horrible. The game was a good idea but it just never got off the ground.
 
I agree with much of what KekaiGenkai stated.

I would like to get off my great horse and add... we as a PC Gaming community need to slap every friend of ours who pirates games, period. If they don't listen we need to wind up and slap them harder! You have to fix this issue at the source, IT IS NOT YOUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO PLAY GAMES!! get that through your brain.

I don't care if you want to test the game, it is illegal to download and use copywrited material, period. You have no "right" to try before you buy. It is wrong and unlawful. If you can't try it before you buy it, well then move on!

You can justify breaking the law, but in the end, your breaking the law. Sadly many people today believe they have entirely to many rights and among them the right to download and "test" any game they so desire for "free".

My prayer is that ever person who pirates software finds their PC overrun by viruses.... infact ever time I see a virus I thank pirates and porn goers... my you enjoy the wage you've worked so hard to earn.
 
I don't think your video or title fit with the spirit of the post you are working from. I believe this is a link to the full post: http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663 While the section on piracy was a significant part of his post, I don't think it was an overly significant part of the spirit of his post.

I feel like after watching that video that you simply saw a large 70-85% figure on piracy and ran with it. He did say all of the things you said, but when taken in context of his whole article I don't feel like revenue "lost" through piracy was his big concern or the company's/game's big stumbling block.

It seemed like his biggest concern was people's perception of the game. The copy-protection's reaction to pre-release pirated copies left the impression of a buggy game. Reviewers giving the bug reports credence and gamers slamming them on the support forums made the impression even more negative. Obscure hardware problems and people's general lack of technical abilities added their share of negativity to the general perception.

Their copy protection issues are a by-product of piracy and do cause problems, but it seems to me that some better error messages might have helped relieve this. The real damage here came from the perception that the game wasn't ready for release.

The media making mention of the copy protection related bugs gives them credence. You are supposed to be the experts and your word goes a lot farther than the average forum poster. Much like the real culprit that killed IL will be construed as piracy based on your article, despite what the original post might have said.

To preface this next part, I'm unsure as to how THQ's financial picture on this game impacts Iron Lore's financial situation. I would assume that they are however similar.

Titan Quest did okay. We didn't lose money on it.
Click to expand...
The above quote leads me to believe that the reason they shut down was more a sign of the economy or other bad choices in their organization than piracy. If they simply broke even on the game, then they managed to recoup invested money as well as pay their staff.

A young company who manages to get their name out there on a reasonably good game and not lose money doesn't close their doors because of that. They've now got experience and a large title with fair market penetration under their belt. They would now be more likely to get investors as well as more likely to not make rookie mistakes. Perhaps it wasn't a huge success, but I don't think the game drove them to financial ruin.
 
What killed this company IMO was that it had only one successful game, and even that one had some serious problems.

1. I played Titan Quest 2 years after it was released, using patch 1.20, and still it crashed to desktop often.
2. The time delay after using a spell was way too long, making it much less pleasant to play.
3. Major balance issue. I had no trouble at all getting all the way to Typhon in the easy difficulty, but when I got there I had no chance at all to win it. I died there hundreds of times without hurting Typhon at all. I even studied FAQs and strategies for dealing with Typhon, no luck at all.

Conclusion: on my Q6600/8800GTX setup the game looked fantastic. I totally loved the graphics, and how the game worked. I had come to Titan Quest after 5 years of playing mostly Diablo 2 and I actually thought I had found the perfect replacement. Then I met Typhon and the love affair ended. I didn't buy Immortal Throne, and I didn't recommend the game to my friends. Too bad. It would have been so easy to fix it...
 
titan quest just wasnt a good game, it was slow and boring compared to the diablo series and until someone can make a game better they are always going to be compared to diablo. I dont want to get too deep into it but i know that i played titan quest and i was bored, thats it, 100% bored.
 
and btw i cant stand these video reviews, they are just about as boring as titan quest.
 



I totally agree. In fact, it's even worse than that. Cutting the sales in half, in a business where profit margins are very small as it is, does much more harm that cutting the profits in half. It turns the profits into big losses. Here's an example: if it costs me 1000 bucks to make a game, and I sell 2 copies for $510 each, I make $20 profit on my $1000, i.e. +2%. If one of the copies is pirated instead, I make $510 revenue, and my profit is in fact a loss of $490.
 



Yeah I agree with you on that. The game wasn't made for longevity and it lacked word of mouth promotion. I hated the AI most of all, they were horrible. No matter what they were, they just gather around you in a circle and kick the crap out of you. It reminds me of watching 8yr olds play soccer. The levels of difficulty didn't make the AI any different, they just jacked up their offense and defense settings. I felt like they cut a lot of corners when the developed the first one. The pirates just watched that one sink, I don’t think they had a hand in it.
 
Im just going to use this as an example:

I downloaded both crysis and COD4.
Which game did I go out and buy? COD4.
Played through both games once, and crysis just didnt seem worth buying.
COD4 SP was marvelous, and the multiplayer is awesome.

Im very glad I didnt shell out the money for crysis...
 
Piracy did not kill Titan Quest Iron-Lore, nor, is it killing the PC Game industry. Poor marketing, buggy game-play and poor aftermarket support killed it.

PC game piracy has existed as long as PC games have existed, it's not new, it's not good but it's certainly not a new phenomenom. It may have accelerated recently with the advent of BitTorrent, but then again it may not be any worse than 10 years ago when zero-day warez sites were all the rage. We don't actually know.

At the moment we have people coming along saying my game sold poorly on PC but great on the consoles (COD4 comes to mind), therefor piracy caused it. BUT we, the consumer, don't actually know how many units were sold for PC because units sold and distributed using online distribution methods, Steam, Direct2Drive etc. aren't being included in the gross tally's. Only units sold at Wall-Mart or EB Games etc. are being included.

Until we actually get correct data, it's impossible to make any sort of judgement.

Also, if Titan Quest was released a couple of days early and was full of bugs, why didn't they just release a better copy and say that the previous one was crap d/load this one? By this point the cat was well out of the bag and sales were going to suffer regardless.
 
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