Shut Out of Windows 11: TPM Requirement Excludes Many PCs

[Math Geek]

TPM is not secure, so requiring it is useless

here's one of many articles explaining how vulnerable it is

https://thehackernews.com/2019/11/tpm-encryption-keys-hacking.html

you can watch youtube videos on how to hack tpm,

just useless....

 

[HyperMatrix]

Before people panic....my 6 year old x99 motherboard had support for TPM modules. A lot of Intel and AMD CPUs support PTT or fTPM which means you won’t need the actual TPM module. Although it would be smarter to have the security key in the module that on your motherboard in case hardware failure occurs.

I was able to pass the TPM requirements on a 6th Gen i5 6500 processor and install windows 11. It also installed on a laptop with an 8750H. And my 11900k worked too, but only after enabling PTT in the bios.

Most people will not need to buy a TPM module. So don’t pay the scalper prices I’m seeing charged everywhere including listings going from the previous $25 to $199 on eBay.

 

[Colif]

TPM is not secure, so requiring it is useless

here's one of many articles explaining how vulnerable it is

https://thehackernews.com/2019/11/tpm-encryption-keys-hacking.html

you can watch youtube videos on how to hack tpm,

just useless....

microsoft seem to think otherwise

https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...rusted-platform-module.3710248/#post-22364487

 

[USAFRet]

microsoft seem to think otherwise

https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...rusted-platform-module.3710248/#post-22364487

Of course they'll say that.

SSD manufacturers state that their hardware encryption is secure.

Samsung SSD Self-Encryption Provides Highest Level of Protection against Data Loss | Samsung Semiconductor Global

Samsung has only SSD to feature Government-Grade AES 256-bit Encryption for Heightened Security.

www.samsung.com

Out in the real world, however...
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/crucial-samsung-ssd-encryption-bypassed,38025.html

 

[bobert4249]

Despite my admiration for Spinal Tap - my PC will never go to 11......

 

[USAFRet]

Despite my admiration for Spinal Tap - my PC will never go to 11......

Your next one will...

 

[Loadedaxe]

So tired. so very tired of MS and having to remove all their bloatware that destroys PCs performance with too many processes competing for CPU context, destroying cache performance, and using up wasted SSD or other disk space. PCs run so much better after I eliminated 90% of the junk not needed and turned unnecessary services and batch / scheduled jobs off / deleted. I give up - not supporting friends or family anymore. I'm moving to Linux for good. from 16 GB to 64 gb min hard drive space is scary - sounds like 48 gb of mostly bloatware headed towards the community. And personally - it's just freaking rude to assume my PC wants to be an X-Box POS game system for kids. Simply unmanageable for the masses. Been that way for a while - every PC from others I run into is "infected" with bloat to start with from the manufactures, then the users get tricked into adding countless more. How the F Candyland and a similar game even got onto one friend's computer that I de-installed it from is still a mystery. Uncle. I'm out.

So having to get a 64GB SSD, is hindering you from Windows 11? If you read the article, all of that bloatware is not installed, just an icon so if you want it, you can install it. If you remove the icons, MS gladly puts them back on when you do an update. Oh...and there is one key thing I forgot......its FREE!

But I am sure the Linux community will have open arms for you. They loooooooove your type!

 

[RodroX]

lol it will be really funny if MS is doing all this non-sense system requirements just to make people talk about Windows 11 on forums, reddit, twitter, youtube, etc. If thats the case, then they succeed.

This are probably not the final system requirements. I don't think MS will launch a OS that only a few selected PC will be able to run, come on, they want to conquer the world, requireing TPM for a home PC is just stupid.


I can't stop laughing enough at the 64GB of storage, my Lord, How much more crap are they going to try and install on our drives?, Isn't ridiculous that the requirements, as they are now, narrow the amount of devices that are able to run the OS, but the installation needs a lot more storage space?

 

[USAFRet]

I can't stop laughing enough at the 64GB of storage, my Lord, How much more crap are they going to try and install on our drives?, Isn't ridiculous that the requirements, as they are now, narrow the amount of devices that are able to run the OS, but the installation needs a lot more storage space?

Its not that it will need that much, but it WILL need some free space as time goes by.

Even today, the semi annual Win 10 updates need about an extra 30GB free space, on top of what is already consumed.
A lot of that gets cleaned up after the Update, but it needs that space.

A 64GB drive has not been a good idea for a very long time.

 

[RodroX]

Its not that it will need that much, but it WILL need some free space as time goes by.

Even today, the semi annual Win 10 updates need about an extra 30GB free space, on top of what is already consumed.
A lot of that gets cleaned up after the Update, but it needs that space.

A 64GB drive has not been a good idea for a very long time.

Oh I see, so they listed the "max" storage space need it at some point, like during instalaltion or update, but not the actual used space. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[USAFRet]

Oh I see, so they listed the "max" storage space need it at some point, like during instalaltion or update, but not the actual used space. Thank you for the clarification.

Thats what it seems to me.

Today, with Win 10....the requirement states "20GB space"
I've seen people look at that and partition off a 25GB space for Windows, thinking that is all that is needed.

Then tears when the semi annual update fails.

 

[grogi]

With new system requirements, including strict support for TPM, Windows 11 just won’t run on some computers that comfortably run Windows 10.

Shut Out of Windows 11: TPM Requirement Excludes Many PCs : Read more

I will be interested in seeing Tom's Hardware do an article exploring the circulated on Internet workarounds to TPM 2 . Most seems to replace a few installation files from Win 11 ISO with their equivalent from Win 10 ISO and rebuilding the image. Many people claim that it works but I hope to hear your professional opinion before mugging my system. Thanks much in advance.

 

[USAFRet]

I will be interested in seeing Tom's Hardware do an article exploring the circulated on Internet workarounds to TPM 2 . Most seems to replace a few installation files from Win 11 ISO with their equivalent from Win 10 ISO and rebuilding the image. Many people claim that it works but I hope to hear your professional opinion before mugging my system. Thanks much in advance.

We've not even seen a official Preview release, nor a fully functioning compatibility tool.

Patience.

 

[Joseph_138]

I'm guessing the TPM requirement may have something to do with MS wanting us to use their cloud service. If each machine connected to the cloud is secure, the cloud will also be more secure by extension. If an unsecure machine is allowed to connect, it compromises everyone.

 

[Joseph_138]

I dont think they are as concerned with people upgrading to windows 11 as they were with windows 10. They just want a more cohesive OS going forwards for OEMs with security, the app store, and XBOX gamepass being the main focus. They can afford to be patient and wait for those windows 10 users to upgrade their hardware.

But then they have to make the free upgrade free forever, or for a really long time, because there are going to be people who may not be able to afford to upgrade their hardware before the free upgrade period expires, especially in less well off countries where wages are lower.

 

[Joseph_138]

Before people panic....my 6 year old x99 motherboard had support for TPM modules. A lot of Intel and AMD CPUs support PTT or fTPM which means you won’t need the actual TPM module. Although it would be smarter to have the security key in the module that on your motherboard in case hardware failure occurs.

I was able to pass the TPM requirements on a 6th Gen i5 6500 processor and install windows 11. It also installed on a laptop with an 8750H. And my 11900k worked too, but only after enabling PTT in the bios.

Most people will not need to buy a TPM module. So don’t pay the scalper prices I’m seeing charged everywhere including listings going from the previous $25 to $199 on eBay.

Just because bypassing it works on a pre-release build, doesn't mean it will continue to work as the builds continue to evolve as we march closer to the official release date. I'm sure MS has people scanning all the tech forums, looking for workarounds being posted so they can fix the latest build so that it doesn't work anymore. Your workaround may have already been fixed.

 

[Redisaim]

"Microsoft’s list of compatible CPUs leaves out any Intel processor that is older than 8th Gen Core and any AMD CPU older than Ryzen 2000 series (first gen Ryzen is not on the list). However, a Microsoft spokesperson said that these CPUs were listed because they have TPM"

not only the Ryzen 1800x/1600x/...but also the Ryzen 2400G/2200G aren't on the list. Why? and more important most x370 motherboards have the fTPM option to enable TPM, so I think even the first gen Ryzen have fTPM integrated. So why they are excluded from the list?

Microsoft seems to have excluded all chips / chipsets that are vulnerable to spectre based exploits of the microcode. All of the processors Microsoft is allowing in the new version of windows are post meltdown/spectre chips that have been re-engineered to mitigate the exploits to some degree.

 

[dorsai]

I'd suspect the lack of TPM 2.0 modules on the aftermarket market is mainly due to consumers generally having no need for it until now. The chips themselves (ex.:
ATTPM20P) cost $3, all you need is someone who will put them on a PCB with the proper connector if you don't want to do that yourself.

Once demand for TPM 2.0 goes mainstream for people with older PCs that have the necessary header, you'll probably see modules going for $10-15.

More like 60+...it's already happening.

 

[Colif]

Microsoft have removed the testing tool from the Win 11 site so the demand for TPM might not rise as fast as the scalpers were hoping as only those who tested their system in the last 4 days will know of the need. And by time it returns the requirements may have changed, the number of CPU/MB that work should have grown.

So don't rush out and pay 60 for a chip yet. Let them sit on them and enjoy their wasted money.

 

[RodroX]

I find funny how MS said new Windows will need TPM 2.0, and a lot of people rush to get the modules, Whats the rush to have Windows 11?

Win10 will get updates at least till october 2025 (more than four years from now), Do people getting this module now, know with 100% certainty they will be using the same PC in over 4 years from now?, Do they know how industry (named mobo buillders) will react in the next 4 years from now?, If this TPM requirement becomes a necessity (seems to be for now) to install Win11 then they may include the module and be done with it.

I think everyone worrying about this today should probably lower one or two gears, take the foot away from the gass pedal, and try to enjoy the ride.

 

[InvalidError]

Do people getting this module now, know with 100% certainty they will be using the same PC in over 4 years from now?

Plenty of people on these forums are either still running 7+ years old PCs or were until recently. People sticking to their 2-3 years old PCs for another 4+ years isn't particularly far-fetched. I upgraded my 9 years old PC only last month and mainly did so as preventive maintenance (not being stuck without a viable backup PC while there is no end in sight to inflated pricing) rather than any immediate need to do so.

People with 2-3 years old PCs won't need to rush for TPM2 modules since most recent platforms have firmware-based TPM built-in, only need to turn on Secure Boot and other pre-requisites in BIOS.

For people on older platforms, a TPM2 module is useless if the BIOS only supports TPM1.2.

 

[Colif]

There are people out there who think they can use same PC for 30 years and expect MS to support every OS for that long. Hardware makers would be up in arms if they had to keep supplying drivers for hardware they sold 30 years before. And Microsoft would be less likely to release a new Operating system ever again

Expectations of life span are different depending where you stand.

So yes, some people do use their PC for a long time, I generally try to get at least 5 years out of them (or have with the last few PC anyway)

 

[RodroX]

Plenty of people on these forums are either still running 7+ years old PCs or were until recently. People sticking to their 2-3 years old PCs for another 4+ years isn't particularly far-fetched. I upgraded my 9 years old PC only last month and mainly did so as preventive maintenance (not being stuck without a viable backup PC while there is no end in sight to inflated pricing) rather than any immediate need to do so.

People with 2-3 years old PCs won't need to rush for TPM2 modules since most recent platforms have firmware-based TPM built-in, only need to turn on Secure Boot and other pre-requisites in BIOS.

For people on older platforms, a TPM2 module is useless if the BIOS only supports TPM1.2.

There are people out there who think they can use same PC for 30 years and expect MS to support every OS for that long. Hardware makers would be up in arms if they had to keep supplying drivers for hardware they sold 30 years before. And Microsoft would be less likely to release a new Operating system ever again

Expectations of life span are different depending where you stand.

So yes, some people do use their PC for a long time, I generally try to get at least 5 years out of them (or have with the last few PC anyway)

Exactly what I tried to write, don't rush buying TPM now, wait for a bit and see how the movie goes.

 

[HyperMatrix]

Just because bypassing it works on a pre-release build, doesn't mean it will continue to work as the builds continue to evolve as we march closer to the official release date. I'm sure MS has people scanning all the tech forums, looking for workarounds being posted so they can fix the latest build so that it doesn't work anymore. Your workaround may have already been fixed.

I didn't post a workaround. fTPM and PTT are integrated TPM without a separate TPM module to store the key. That's specifically what they're designed to do.

 

[t.kolson]

Microsoft seems to have excluded all chips / chipsets that are vulnerable to spectre based exploits of the microcode. All of the processors Microsoft is allowing in the new version of windows are post meltdown/spectre chips that have been re-engineered to mitigate the exploits to some degree.

No. Intel for example have added hardware and firmware mitigations regarding Spectre and Meltdown vulnerabilities only to its Coffee Lake-R processors and onwards (announced on Oct 2018). So Intel 8th Gen KabyLake-R processors that are on the win11 compatibility list must be excluded as well (ex. i5-8350U)

If then we were to reason in this way:

from wikipedia:

In November 2018, five new variants of the attacks were revealed. Researchers attempted to compromise CPU protection mechanisms using code to exploit the CPU pattern history table, branch target buffer, return stack buffer, and branch history table.[50]
In August 2019, a related transient execution CPU vulnerability, Spectre SWAPGS (CVE-2019-1125), was reported.[51][52][53]
In late April 2021, a related vulnerability was discovered that breaks through the security systems designed to mitigate Spectre through use of the micro-op cache. The vulnerability is known to affect Skylake and later processors from Intel and Zen-based processors from AMD.[54]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_(security_vulnerability)

so what we do? They are crazy, it's absurd, we start to exclude every CPUs or device (maybe could be a chipset on a motherboard or something on USB,etc) that "could be" compromised as new vulnerabilities are discovered. Let's hope that within some months, before RTM of windows 11, a new vulnerability is not discovered in the new 11th 11900k or...

Or rather, from now we start to use vulnerabilities as a means to push the "mandatory" replacement of PCs? also PaaS (PCs as a service) from now?

In any case as I wrote above they have included CPUs as compatible that doesn't have hardware mitigations even from the "early" variants of Spectre.