So, can horses initiate Grapples?

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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> Opinions?

IMHO,

I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
from combat, especially if it was directed at them.

Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...

1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
pincer...)
2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).
 
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Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> >
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
> deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
> an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
> were human size.

That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
all. From your posts, I assume you do?

Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
horses. Hmm. We'll see.

Laszlo
 
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Werebat wrote:
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> >
> > Kevin Lowe wrote:
> >
> >>In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> >> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> >>>
> >>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> >>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> >>>
> >>>Opinions?
> >>
> >>If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
> >>deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
> >>an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
> >>were human size.
> >
> >
> > That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
> > all. From your posts, I assume you do?
> >
> > Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
> > either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
> > horses. Hmm. We'll see.
>
> Stallions "grapple" mares...

Only 'cause the mare lets them, though.

Laszlo
 
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Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
> "decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> > >
> > > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> > >
> > > Opinions?
> >
> > IMHO,
> >
> > I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
> > been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
> > horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
> > the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
> > a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
> > from combat, especially if it was directed at them.
>
> Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
> have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
> many horses will... (see below).

I've ridden horses a couple of times, but they were very
domesticated. My brother knows first hand about the
stomping bit (one got is foot).

> > Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
> >
> > 1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
> > pincer...)
>
> One of those four things is something horses do.

Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
and he was kind of a bad ass...

> > 2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
> > killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
> > to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).
>
> In context, it looks like it's a paladin's steed. I imagine it's smart
> enough.

Agreed, but that is a special horse, not just your regular
horse. There is no reason a very well trained war horse
couldn't be taught to bite and hold on to an opponent.
I think I would allow a unicorn or pegasus to grapple
(either with teeth or trying to pin their opponent to
the ground).
 
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Kevin Lowe wrote:
> In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> >
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
> deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
> an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
> were human size.

This could make for a very entertaining scene.
1. Rogue tries to steal a horse.
2. Horse turns out to be a paladin's mount.
3. Rogue is knocked down and pinned while horse whinnies,
calling for it's master to come and collect the idiot
that tried to steal him!
 
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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
>>In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>
>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>>
>>>Opinions?
>>
>>If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
>>deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
>>an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
>>were human size.
>
>
> That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
> all. From your posts, I assume you do?
>
> Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
> either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
> horses. Hmm. We'll see.

Stallions "grapple" mares...

- Ron ^*^
 
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Werebat wrote:
> decalod85 wrote:
> > Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
> > my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
> > and he was kind of a bad ass...
>
> But I thought you were talking about HORSES...

Ooooops! Not very clear there, was I. My cousin got
bit by the same horse that stomped on my brothers foot.
The horse was named Moosa...
 
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Michael Scott Brown wrote:
> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.
>
> Does a horse?
>
> Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
> guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
> treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
> hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.

An additional note to this. Light and Heavy warhorses have
a bite attack, as does a pegasus. Unicorns and regular
horses do not have bites listed as natural weapons (seems
like an oversite on the unicorn).
 
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Alien mind control rays made laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu write:
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.

i don't see why not. "the horse stands on you."

--
\^\ // drow@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
\ // - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
// \ X-Windows: Form follows malfunction.
// \_\ -- Dude from DPAK
 
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laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kevin Lowe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>>>
>>>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>>>>
>>>>>Opinions?
>>>>
>>>>If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
>>>>deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
>>>>an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
>>>>were human size.
>>>
>>>
>>>That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
>>>all. From your posts, I assume you do?
>>>
>>>Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
>>>either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
>>>horses. Hmm. We'll see.
>>
>>Stallions "grapple" mares...
>
>
> Only 'cause the mare lets them, though.

Not always...

- Ron ^*^
 
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decalod85 wrote:
>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>
>>In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
>> "decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>>
>>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>>
>>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>>>
>>>>Opinions?
>>>
>>>IMHO,
>>>
>>>I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
>>>been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
>>>horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
>>>the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
>>>a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
>>>from combat, especially if it was directed at them.
>>
>>Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
>>have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
>>many horses will... (see below).
>
>
> I've ridden horses a couple of times, but they were very
> domesticated. My brother knows first hand about the
> stomping bit (one got is foot).
>
>
>>>Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
>>>
>>>1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
>>>pincer...)
>>
>>One of those four things is something horses do.
>
>
> Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
> my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
> and he was kind of a bad ass...

But I thought you were talking about HORSES...

- Ron ^*^
 
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In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> Opinions?

If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
were human size.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
 
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In article <1120918093.462701.86580@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
"decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> wrote:

> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> >
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
> >
> > Opinions?
>
> IMHO,
>
> I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
> been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
> horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
> the front hooves, a kick with the rear hooves, and maybe
> a bull (horse) rush. Most horses would just run away
> from combat, especially if it was directed at them.

Call it a hunch, but would you by any chance be a person who doesn't
have much to do with horses? Some horses *like* stomping things, and
many horses will... (see below).

> Two grapple, I would think you would need two things...
>
> 1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
> pincer...)

One of those four things is something horses do.

> 2. The intelligence or instinct to do the grapple. A
> killer croc is not intelligent, but it has the instincts
> to perform a grapple (as it is a good way to get food).

In context, it looks like it's a paladin's steed. I imagine it's smart
enough.

In reality, well, it's hard to say. Certainly most domesticated horses,
most of the time, wouldn't so anything like that. They are prey animals
and as you said they will generally run away from trouble. On the other
hand there are plenty of documented instances of horses and related
animals getting plenty nasty, especially stallions.

There are some neat photos and some sensible discussion here:

http://msgboard.snopes.com/message/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/60/t/0
00787/p/1.html

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
 
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In article <1120920696.499921.129890@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:

> Kevin Lowe wrote:

> > If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
> > deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
> > an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
> > were human size.
>
> That seems convincing... I don't have much experience with horses at
> all. From your posts, I assume you do?

I've lived with a couple of the beasties for years now, and I ride a
little. My significant other is their owner and the resident horse
expert, but I pick things up here and there.

> Unfortunately, my RL play group has no real experience with horses
> either, and they'll scream bloody murder if I introduce grappling
> horses. Hmm. We'll see.

I posted a snopes link to some piccies that allegedly show a mule owning
a mountain lion. If you don't tell your players that the piccies' story
is not confirmed to be true, I'm sure they'll buy attack horses.

:)

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
 
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In article <1120912367.099951.111180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu says...

> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>
> Also... a Paladin/Monk? Damn, with Int her only non-primary stat, no
> wonder she thought the Order was evil. I'm surprised she can speak
> Common.

Eh. It's not that big of a deal to take a wacky class combo when you're
the DM's plot device NPC. You get as many levels as you need, after all.


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
 
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decalod85 wrote:
>
> Werebat wrote:
>
>>decalod85 wrote:
>>
>>>Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
>>>my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
>>>and he was kind of a bad ass...
>>
>>But I thought you were talking about HORSES...
>
>
> Ooooops! Not very clear there, was I. My cousin got
> bit by the same horse that stomped on my brothers foot.
> The horse was named Moosa...

So who was the donkey?

- Ron ^*^
 
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decalod85 wrote:

>
> Michael Scott Brown wrote:
>
>><laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
>>news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>>So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>>>the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>
>> You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.
>>
>> Does a horse?
>>
>> Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
>>guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
>>treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
>>hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.
>
>
> An additional note to this. Light and Heavy warhorses have
> a bite attack, as does a pegasus. Unicorns and regular
> horses do not have bites listed as natural weapons (seems
> like an oversite on the unicorn).

Actually, while not the same animal...

I believe ZEBRAS have a nasty bite attack, and there are documented
cases of them killing people they have "grappled" by biting and not
letting go.

- Ron ^*^
 
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<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.

You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.

Does a horse?

Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.


-Michael
 
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On 9 Jul 2005 07:08:13 -0700, "decalod85" <decalod85@comcast.net> scribed
into the ether:

>
>
>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>>
>> So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>> the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>>
>> Opinions?
>
>IMHO,
>
>I would say no, unless the horse was high int or had
>been specifically trained to fight this way. A normal
>horse really wouldn't fight, aside from strikes with
>the front hooves,

Not a normal horse though, Paladin Mount. Not even really a horse at all.
 
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On Sat, 09 Jul 2005 09:44:53 -0700, decalod85 wrote:

>
>
> Kevin Lowe wrote:
>> In article <1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
>> laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>>
>> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>> >
>> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
>> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>> >
>> > Opinions?
>>
>> If one of those things stands on your foot, you're grappled until it
>> deigns to put its damn foot someplace else. I've got no question that
>> an intelligent one could knock you down and stand on you even if you
>> were human size.
>
> This could make for a very entertaining scene.
> 1. Rogue tries to steal a horse.
> 2. Horse turns out to be a paladin's mount.
> 3. Rogue is knocked down and pinned while horse whinnies,
> calling for it's master to come and collect the idiot
> that tried to steal him!

Why a rogue? Why not a hungry commoner/1 who's actually a child.

And what's the common penalty for a horse thief? Yepp, gotta need
some hemp rope.
 
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In article <1120927269.131210.62410@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
decalod85@comcast.net says...

> > > 1. Some way to grab your opponent (bite, claw, hand,
> > > pincer...)
> >
> > One of those four things is something horses do.
>
> Yup. My cousin got one of those. Same horse that got
> my brother. His name was Moosa (pronounced Moose-ahh)
> and he was kind of a bad ass...

A Moosa once bit your brother?


--
Jasin Zujovic
jzujovic@inet.hr
 
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In article <1120912367.099951.111180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>,
<laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote:
>laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu wrote:
>> http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
>
>Also... a Paladin/Monk? Damn, with Int her only non-primary stat, no
>wonder she thought the Order was evil. I'm surprised she can speak
>Common.

I posted an Ascetic Paladin a few months ago; some people made comments about
interpreting some of their favourite characters from movies as Paladin/monks.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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In article <vhUze.2879$BK1.199@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Michael Scott Brown" <mistermichael@earthlink.net> wrote:

> <laszlo_spamhole@freemail.hu> wrote in message
> news:1120907004.936645.7340@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200
> > So here's a question: can horses initiate grapples? There's nothing in
> > the rules forbidding them from doing so, but, well, geez.
>
> You can only initiate a grapple if you have a way to grab.
>
> Does a horse?
>
> Only with its bite. If this isn't statted as a natural weapon, then the
> guidance on the WOTC website would lead one to conclude that it should be
> treated as an unarmed strike. While grappling or grappled, the horses
> hooves are only good for attacking since they cannot grab, wrap, or hold.

One horse of my acquiantance, a racing colt, had a plastic "witches hat"
(the bright orange things they use to mark out road works and so forth)
as a toy. He'd grab it by the top with his teeth and shake it quite
savagely, and then hurl it several meters through the air. Because we
were softies we were always throwing it back over the fence to him. He
ended up tearing the top off it.

If horses don't have a bite attack, albeit one that's not really in the
same league as that of a wolf or war dog, it's an oversight on the part
of the designers.

This horse also liked biting people, and was quite cunning about finding
opportunities to do so. He also figured out how to lie on his side and
commando-crawl under an electric fence. Smart, nasty horse.

--
Kevin Lowe,
Tasmania.
 
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