Socket 1366 obsolete, SMT a 'gimmick'

[jimmysmitty]

^When the 6/8 cors come out and LGA 1156 is left behind or the next gen ATI/nV GPUs take full advantage of more than a PCIe x8 dual setup, we will see which platform overall holds out better.

This is the same as those who barely two years ago said a quad was useless yet now a quad os prefered and more common. In fact dual cores are the super low end.

I gurantee that LGA 1156 will become obsolete sooner than LGA 1366 will just like a E6850 became obsolete faster than a Q6600 did.

 

[andy5174]

^When the 6/8 cors come out and LGA 1156 is left behind

Only if you can afford $999USD Gulftown.

next gen ATI/nV GPUs take full advantage of more than a PCIe x8 dual setup

Only if next gen gfx are all better than HD5870 which is impossible. The gen next to next gen might be able to saturate x8, but that's way too long from now and LGA1366 will be replaced by sandy bridge by then.

I gurantee that LGA 1156 will become obsolete sooner than LGA 1366 will just like a E6850 became obsolete faster than a Q6600 did.

E6850 is dual core! In addition, the difference between i5 and i7 is much smaller than the difference between Q6600 and E6850.

Hence, i7 will be obsolete when i5 is obsolete.

I guaranty that "affordable/non-extreme edition" LGA1366 i7 will be outdated when LGA1156(which is less than 10% worse) is outdated!

 

[gamerk316]

Hey, remember just a few years ago where there was no point to spend extra on a Quad? Yeah, same argument. We'll see how long each platform lasts, but I suspect 1366 will see more long-term development.

 

[fazers_on_stun]

^It wasn't to say the N200 was important except the guy you were replying to wanted SLI as an option and only the UD6 has it in the P55. And yes I was comparing the UD3R to the UD6 because in essence, that 3 way GPU setup the P55 has is still lower end than the UD3R has. That will make a difference in later GPUs.

We have no idea what Intel has planned for LGA 1366. They could push their 22nm 8 cores to it. Until then we wont know. Will they have newer mbos such as the X68 that will have newer features? Yes. But that means LGA 1156 will also get a P65 with newer features.

Actually from Anandtech's Gulftown review this morning, it sorta looks like the cheaper i7-970 Gulftown may be LGA-1366:

The next point of interest is the Core i7 970, which is apparently a cheaper Gulftown due out next quarter. It slots in above the Core i7 960 and 870, meaning it may be priced somewhere in the $600 - $900 range. The very first Extreme Edition carried a $740 price tag. I’d guess that we’d see a 3.2GHz default clock speed on that part.

Reason is, the 960 is a 1366 part..

 

[werxen]

In conclusion, LGA1366 is a total waste IMO.

Reasons:
1. 99.99% of the LGA1366 owners can't afford the future proof, the $999USD Gulftown.
2. 99.99% of the LGA1366 owners can't afford 2 high end gfx to take the advantage of two 16x
3. LGA1366 will be extremely outdated and weak by the time 8x is saturated by gfx.

Exactly.

But if you can afford it and actually utilize it - then it will be worth your while!

 

[jimmysmitty]

Actually from Anandtech's Gulftown review this morning, it sorta looks like the cheaper i7-970 Gulftown may be LGA-1366:

The next point of interest is the Core i7 970, which is apparently a cheaper Gulftown due out next quarter. It slots in above the Core i7 960 and 870, meaning it may be priced somewhere in the $600 - $900 range. The very first Extreme Edition carried a $740 price tag. I’d guess that we’d see a 3.2GHz default clock speed on that part.

Reason is, the 960 is a 1366 part..

This is how it always goes with Intel. Highe end then slowly trickle down to lower parts. The Q6600 was the first quad and came out near $1K. Then the QX6700 hit and the Q6600 went to $550 and the QX6700 stayed at $1K. Then the QX6850, then the QX9650 and so on and so forth.

I am pretty sure that by years end we will see a sub $500 6 core Gulftown and possibly with Sandy Bridge, see 6 cores move to the mid end market much like the quads are now with 8 cores being the high end.

 

[cjl]

This is how it always goes with Intel. Highe end then slowly trickle down to lower parts. The Q6600 was the first quad and came out near $1K. Then the QX6700 hit and the Q6600 went to $550 and the QX6700 stayed at $1K. Then the QX6850, then the QX9650 and so on and so forth.

I am pretty sure that by years end we will see a sub $500 6 core Gulftown and possibly with Sandy Bridge, see 6 cores move to the mid end market much like the quads are now with 8 cores being the high end.

Actually, the QX6700 was first, at the beginning of Nov. 2006. The Q6600 came out in Jan. 2007 for $850 (rather than the $1k of the QX6700). It was cut to $530 in April, and $266 near the end of July (when the $530 Q6700 came out, along with the QX6850 for $1k).

 

[armartins]

1) Only if you can afford $999USD Gulftown.


2) Only if next gen gfx are all better than HD5870 which is impossible. The gen next to next gen might be able to saturate x8, but that's way too long from now and LGA1366 will be replaced by sandy bridge by then.

3) E6850 is dual core! In addition, the difference between i5 and i7 is much smaller than the difference between Q6600 and E6850.


4)I guaranty that "affordable/non-extreme edition" LGA1366 i7 will be outdated when LGA1156(which is less than 10% worse) is outdated!

1) 2 Years from now when I'll be switching my I7 920 I'll get a six core for U$300.00 as I did with the 920 and by that time 6 cores will be maxed out, paralel, multithread, that's the way programing is going.

2) Well 2-5% is enought to justify the extra U$70.00 I payed to have a P6TD-Deluxe over a good 1156 non N200 Chipset Mobo (the processor pays hinself his extra price over the I5 750) since I'll buy one 5870 on june and another sometime further (look I have an I7 920 and still have an 8800GT and I'll wait to the best deal in june, as I've waited to the I7 plataform + DDR3 2000mhz until now)

3) Yeah but both fit LGA775 could you put an I5 on an I7 9xx mobo? The tendency is only this diference to grow. With improved use of HT (more physical cores on 1366, more benefit from HT).

4) I don't think so. If the only thing you do is gamming.... well even in this segment will be improvement in use of multi core (phisical or not) since AI techinics based on vectors are becomming very popular (trust me, I research this topic) and they are highly multi core/thread friendly. Like other guy said above try to do some virtualization, some video transcoding... and you'll see the diference. Your opinion is serious biased by what you do (nothing wrong with this) but you can't state that what don't fit to you doesn't fit the others. Make some number crashing and se how much an I5 750 got smashed by an I7 (8xx or 9xx) and sorry the top processors will only be released on 1366 the so caled "obsolete" plataform. And further more try to keep a 4.2ghz+ OC 24/7 on a I5 750 or a I7 8xx and let's how much Voltage you need, how much cooling you'll need. Thats my opinion =)

 

[fazers_on_stun]

This is how it always goes with Intel. Highe end then slowly trickle down to lower parts. The Q6600 was the first quad and came out near $1K. Then the QX6700 hit and the Q6600 went to $550 and the QX6700 stayed at $1K. Then the QX6850, then the QX9650 and so on and so forth.

I am pretty sure that by years end we will see a sub $500 6 core Gulftown and possibly with Sandy Bridge, see 6 cores move to the mid end market much like the quads are now with 8 cores being the high end.

What was interesting to me is that Anand got the i7-980 Gulftown up & running in a very early LGA-1366 board, the one they used to test Bloomfield back in Nov. 08. Of course, it had some oc issues so they replaced it in the update article, and got their 980 up to 4.1GHz on the stock cooler.

I think that if Intel prices the 970 at the low end of the $500 - $900 range, that'll drive a lot of upgrades to LGA-1366. I know that I'm waiting to see what they do price-wise, as I have been sitting on the damn fence for over a year now (re my i7-920 build) and my butt is getting sore 😛... Also my backup P4 Northwood system died recently so all I have for DT is my Q6700 system I built over 3 years ago..

At least, that's how I'm gonna explain spending more $$ on computer stuff to the wife! 😀 Hellboy would be proud of me

 

[andy5174]

1) 2 Years from now when I'll be switching my I7 920 I'll get a six core for U$300.00 as I did with the 920 and by that time 6 cores will be maxed out, paralel, multithread, that's the way programing is going.

2) Well 2-5% is enought to justify the extra U$70.00 I payed to have a P6TD-Deluxe over a good 1156 non N200 Chipset Mobo (the processor pays hinself his extra price over the I5 750) since I'll buy one 5870 on june and another sometime further (look I have an I7 920 and still have an 8800GT and I'll wait to the best deal in june, as I've waited to the I7 plataform + DDR3 2000mhz until now)

3) Yeah but both fit LGA775 could you put an I5 on an I7 9xx mobo? The tendency is only this diference to grow. With improved use of HT (more physical cores on 1366, more benefit from HT).

4) I don't think so. If the only thing you do is gamming.... well even in this segment will be improvement in use of multi core (phisical or not) since AI techinics based on vectors are becomming very popular (trust me, I research this topic) and they are highly multi core/thread friendly. Like other guy said above try to do some virtualization, some video transcoding... and you'll see the diference. Your opinion is serious biased by what you do (nothing wrong with this) but you can't state that what don't fit to you doesn't fit the others. Make some number crashing and se how much an I5 750 got smashed by an I7 (8xx or 9xx) and sorry the top processors will only be released on 1366 the so caled "obsolete" plataform. And further more try to keep a 4.2ghz+ OC 24/7 on a I5 750 or a I7 8xx and let's how much Voltage you need, how much cooling you'll need. Thats my opinion =)

1) You must be Intel's CEO that you know their pricing 2 years later!

2) 2-5% with 2x HD5870 means 3-4fps. Is it worth the extra $70?!!! I could get a better gfx with extra $70 to beat you by 10fps+.

3) Can you put the $999 Gulftown in your LGA1366 if you can't afford it?

2 Years from now when I'll be switching my I7 920 I'll get a six core for U$300.00 as I did with the 920

Even Intel's CEO doesn't know their pricing 2 years later!
Do you know how expensive C2Q extreme is now? Extreme will never become that cheap.
In addition, people will be using the cheaper and faster sandy bridge two years later.

4) 99% games/apps can't even take the advantage of 4-core CPUs, let alone 6-core.

Later games can take the advantage of 6-core soon

It is impossible considering it took 3 years for most games to take the advantage of merely 2/3-core.

And further more try to keep a 4.2ghz+ OC 24/7 on a I5 750 or a I7 8xx and let's how much Voltage you need

The voltage required on LGA1366 is lower, because P=VI and LGA1366 has worse transistors that generate a lot of useless/harmful leakage current which is the reason why LGA1366 CPU run so darn hot.

Isn't keeping CPU cool the reason why you want lower voltage? LGA1156 give you lower temps even with higher voltage and this also means that it is much more efficient than LGA1366.

In addition, the CPU voltage on LGA1156 not only supply core voltage but on-die PCIE controller voltage as well.

 

[cjl]

And further more try to keep a 4.2ghz+ OC 24/7 on a I5 750 or a I7 8xx and let's how much Voltage you need

The voltage required on LGA1366 is lower, because P=VI and LGA1366 has worse transistors that generate a lot of useless/harmful leakage current which is the reason why LGA1366 CPU run so darn hot.

Isn't keeping CPU cool the reason why you want lower voltage? LGA1156 give you lower temps even with higher voltage and this also means that it is much more efficient than LGA1366.

In addition, the CPU voltage on LGA1156 not only supply core voltage but on-die PCIE controller voltage as well.

I am 100% sure that you don't have a clue what you're talking about here. LGA1366 and LGA1156 CPUs use exactly the same kinds of transistors, with exactly the same leakage properties.

 

[andy5174]

I am 100% sure that you don't have a clue what you're talking about here.

I am 100% sure that you don't have a clue what I am talking about here.

LGA1366 and LGA1156 CPUs use exactly the same kinds of transistors, with exactly the same leakage properties.

Why does LGA1156 run much cooler even with more transistors due to on-die PCI-E controller? Because LGA1156 is more efficient thanks to its better "PCU(power control unit)" and new "power gate transistor" that acts as a "true switch" which means that there is almost no leakage current on LGA1156 CPU.

LGA1366 and LGA1156 CPUs use exactly the same kinds of transistors, with exactly the same leakage properties.

The current & voltage characteristic are NOT the same for LGA1156 and LGA1366 according to the Intel's data sheet. This is no surprise to me as their architectures are not the same.

 

[jimmysmitty]

^Um Clarkdale is a variant of Nehalem which is what the LGA 1366 chips are. The reason why the Nehalem based chips need more connections is the triple channel DDR3.

Clarkdale does have better power switching but the ovwerall process is the exact same. But that means that the i7 6 core series will have the same thing meaning they will be just as efficient as a Clarkdale CPU.

But does that mean that there will be no affordable 6 core CPu? No it doesn't. In fact it means there will be and it does not mean LGA 1366 will become obsolete by then. In fact it will be just as viable.

BTW, Sandy Bridge is set for LGA 1366 and we have ahd no word on any LGA 1156 variant. So if LGA 1156 gets no Sandy Bridge, how will you be able to use it without LGA 1366?

 

[armartins]

Just answering you andy. the "thermal eficiency" is due to the fact that 1156 has a single die, that's better for sure, but the voltage is damm high to keep one 1156 chip running 24/7 at high overclocks, and no temperatures aren't the only isue, looks like you have good knowledge so you know higher voltages mean shorter life, higher risk of making the processor fail, (otherwise a processor would never fail under Nitrogen OC...

The dificult is to make it run on more than one core, after this and with use of algorithms that allow paralelisation bang you can use as many cores you have (can even use your GPGPU to run then. And if you go to ANY symphosium about game developing around the world you'll se MUCH research in topics related to this. Or do you think it's good for intel and AMD that games DOESN'T use the full potential of their processors, so why change? Keep your 6850. I'm not talking about only threading blocks of the main game look but rather to use multithreaded operations within all blocks. And my friend we're already going tward that direction.

 

[andy5174]

^Um Clarkdale is a variant of Nehalem which is what the LGA 1366 chips are. The reason why the Nehalem based chips need more connections is the triple channel DDR3.

Clarkdale does have better power switching but the ovwerall process is the exact same. But that means that the i7 6 core series will have the same thing meaning they will be just as efficient as a Clarkdale CPU.

But does that mean that there will be no affordable 6 core CPu? No it doesn't. In fact it means there will be and it does not mean LGA 1366 will become obsolete by then. In fact it will be just as viable.

BTW, Sandy Bridge is set for LGA 1366 and we have ahd no word on any LGA 1156 variant. So if LGA 1156 gets no Sandy Bridge, how will you be able to use it without LGA 1366?

There won't be affordable Gulftown and Gulftown will remains the top!

Sandy bridge will be the replacement of LGA1156/LGA1366, but it will be available only in 4-core.

 

[andy5174]

@armartins:

the "thermal eficiency" is due to the fact that 1156 has a single die

LGA1366 is with single die too! Only the old C2D/C2Q are made of two cpus glued together. And thermal efficiency = power efficiency!

The more power efficient an electronic device is, the cooler it runs.

but the voltage is damm high to keep one 1156 chip running 24/7 at high overclocks, and no temperatures aren't the only isue,

It is NOT damn high and well within the spec. Furthermore, the CPU voltage for LGA1156 not only support core voltage but integrated NB and on-die PCI-E controller as well.

You get lower voltage on LGA1366 due to its PCI-E controller voltage and NB voltage are supplied by MB instead of CPU.

looks like you have good knowledge so you know higher voltages mean shorter life, higher risk of making the processor fail

You won't have problem as long as your voltages are within spec.

In addition, the MAIN reason you want lower voltage is to make CPU cooler! LGA1156 runs much cooler even with more voltage.

 

[jimmysmitty]

There won't be affordable Gulftown and Gulftown will remains the top!

Sandy bridge will be the replacement of LGA1156/LGA1366, but it will be available only in 4-core.

http://images.anandtech.com/reviews/cpu/intel/gulftown/roadmap.jpg

The i7970 is a Gulftown part that is set for Performance.

I am sure Sandy Birdge will also have 6 core maybe even 8 core parts. We don't even have a full idea of what Intel plans and things to change.

its just like Larrabee. Gen 1 is not for consumers but that doesn't mean it was canned all together.

 

[andy5174]

i7-870/960 are set for performance as well; and they are not even close to affordable although they are 200~300 cheaper than $999.

BTW, even $289 i7-920 is not considered as an affordable price to most of us and you would see much less 920 if Microcenter didn't sell them for $200.

LGA1366 has no affordable upgrade path to 99.99% of us.

 

[noob2222]

talk about someone close minded, and completely blind to even his own posts... WOW.

 

[cjl]

I am 100% sure that you don't have a clue what you're talking about here.

I am 100% sure that you don't have a clue what I am talking about here.

Oh, I'm pretty sure I do.

LGA1366 and LGA1156 CPUs use exactly the same kinds of transistors, with exactly the same leakage properties.

Why does LGA1156 run much cooler even with more transistors due to on-die PCI-E controller? Because LGA1156 is more efficient thanks to its better "PCU(power control unit)" and new "power gate transistor" that acts as a "true switch" which means that there is almost no leakage current on LGA1156 CPU.

Just so you know, Bloomfield (the original LGA1366 CPUs) also has power gate transistors and a PCU.

LGA1366 and LGA1156 CPUs use exactly the same kinds of transistors, with exactly the same leakage properties.

The current & voltage characteristic are NOT the same for LGA1156 and LGA1366 according to the Intel's data sheet. This is no surprise to me as their architectures are not the same.

[/quotemsg]
The same? No, but they are extremely similar. When running at the same voltage and clockspeed, Bloomfield and Lynnfield will use similar amounts of power. There are slight differences, in large part due to the additional memory channel and more power hungry northbridge, but the architectural differences are quite small between Bloomfield and Lynnfield chips.

 

[yannifb]

If that roadmap andy put up is accurate, then it looks like Sandy Bridge won't have a six core part. The reason i say this is because the 980x is still the performance and enthusiast part (even in q1 2011). Unless a single Sandy Bridge core is weaker than a Nehalem core (which i seriously doubt) it looks like there won't be a 6 core part.

Of course this is only true if that roadmap is accurate.

 

[andy5174]

Just so you know, Bloomfield (the original LGA1366 CPUs) also has power gate transistors and a PCU.

I never said they don't. All I said is that LGA1156 comes with improved PCU and power gate transistor.

The same? No, but they are extremely similar. When running at the same voltage and clockspeed, Bloomfield and Lynnfield will use similar amounts of power. There are slight differences, in large part due to the additional memory channel and more power hungry northbridge, but the architectural differences are quite small between Bloomfield and Lynnfield chips.

It was you said they are EXACTLY the same, not me. Besides, LGA1366's off-die NB and PCI-E controller has nothing to do with the LGA1366 CPU temps, OF COURSE.

Furthermore, LGA1156 run much cooler even there are much more transistors on them due to integrated NB and PCI-E controller. Can you imagine how cool and low voltage LGA1156 would run if PCI-E controller and NB were not integrated. There must be some magic in LGA1156 if they had extremely similar PCU and PGT as LGA1366, considering the LGA1156 running much cooler even with much more transistors.

 

[yannifb]

I never said they don't. All I said is that LGA1156 comes with improved PCU and power gate transistor.


It was you said they are EXACTLY the same, not me. Besides, LGA1366's off-die NB and PCI-E controller has nothing to do with the LGA1366 CPU temps, OF COURSE.

Furthermore, LGA1156 run much cooler even there are much more transistors on them due to integrated NB and PCI-E controller. Can you imagine how cool and low voltage LGA1156 would run if PCI-E controller and NB were not integrated. There must be some magic in LGA1156 if they had extremely similar PCU and PGT as LGA1366, considering the LGA1156 running much cooler even with much more transistors.

Can you show proof the 1156 cpus have more transistors than the 1366 ones?

 

[andy5174]

Intel's datasheet and Anandtech.

http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=3634

It shows that LGA1156 has 43million more transistors than LGA1366 in a comparison table.

 

[cjl]

I never said they don't. All I said is that LGA1156 comes with improved PCU and power gate transistor.


It was you said they are EXACTLY the same, not me. Besides, LGA1366's off-die NB and PCI-E controller has nothing to do with the LGA1366 CPU temps, OF COURSE.

Furthermore, LGA1156 run much cooler even there are much more transistors on them due to integrated NB and PCI-E controller. Can you imagine how cool and low voltage LGA1156 would run if PCI-E controller and NB were not integrated. There must be some magic in LGA1156 if they had extremely similar PCU and PGT as LGA1366, considering the LGA1156 running much cooler even with much more transistors.

They have almost exactly the same PCU and gate transistors as LGA1366 - the reasons they run cooler are:

1) The highest binned chips run 2.9GHz. This allows them to run at a lower voltage
2) No third memory channel
3) No ultra-high speed external connection (QPI)

Also, the most popular LGA1156 chip (the i5-750) has no SMT, which significantly cools it down. I would be willing to bet that if you ran all i7-975s at 2.9GHz, all i7-960s at 2.8GHz, and all i7-930s at 2.6GHz with no SMT, you'd find them running quite a bit cooler too.