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Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d702c8e8738795a989c6b@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <44qNe.3432$Z%6.1708@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
> nospam@hotmail.com says...
>> That's why top posting is better!
>
> LOL, spoken like a true non-conformist.
>
> Since we snipped what you replied to, that means people reading a reply
> to you won't know what you were saying - that's why snipping and bottom
> posting are best/correct.
>
> --

I try to follow the approach of the post, but top posting is actually easier
and clearer. Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and
using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts. It's horrible.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts."

Never thought about that before. Good point.

Ted Zieglar

"Tom Scales" <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote in message news:NRuNe.37512$dJ5.13159@tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d702c8e8738795a989c6b@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
>> In article <44qNe.3432$Z%6.1708@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
>> nospam@hotmail.com says...
>>> That's why top posting is better!
>>
>> LOL, spoken like a true non-conformist.
>>
>> Since we snipped what you replied to, that means people reading a reply
>> to you won't know what you were saying - that's why snipping and bottom
>> posting are best/correct.
>>
>> --
>
> I try to follow the approach of the post, but top posting is actually easier
> and clearer. Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and
> using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts. It's horrible.
>
> Tom
>
>
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <NRuNe.37512$dJ5.13159@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
tomtoo@softhome.net says...
>
> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1d702c8e8738795a989c6b@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> > In article <44qNe.3432$Z%6.1708@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com>,
> > nospam@hotmail.com says...
> >> That's why top posting is better!
> >
> > LOL, spoken like a true non-conformist.
> >
> > Since we snipped what you replied to, that means people reading a reply
> > to you won't know what you were saying - that's why snipping and bottom
> > posting are best/correct.
> >
> I try to follow the approach of the post, but top posting is actually easier
> and clearer. Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and
> using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts. It's horrible.

It's just as bad if you just into a thread without being able to see the
previous posts, read an answer, and then have to search for the question
in 400 other posts.

Proper bottom posting also include aggressivee snipping of the text you
are replying too - but people don't do that properly either.

--

spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <LLqdnbjqzMMgHpveRVn-oQ@comcast.com>, teddyz@notmail.com
says...
> "Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts."
>
> Never thought about that before. Good point.

Wait till you get a reply, have not been able to see the rest of the
thread, and have to read an answer to something that makes no sense
until you finish scroll reading to the bottom of the thread - or when
someone didn't properly snip the post.

As is reading a book, which many blind do, it's top to bottom, with the
new content at the bottom.

--

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remove 999 in order to email me
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d7050bcbd955d58989c71@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
>> >
>> I try to follow the approach of the post, but top posting is actually
>> easier
>> and clearer. Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and
>> using a screen reader and everyone bottom posts. It's horrible.
>
> It's just as bad if you just into a thread without being able to see the
> previous posts, read an answer, and then have to search for the question
> in 400 other posts.
>
> Proper bottom posting also include aggressivee snipping of the text you
> are replying too - but people don't do that properly either.


You've clearly never used a screen reader. My wife is visually impaired and
I help her a lot. Bottom posting, no matter how much you snip, is a
complete disaster. Imagine it. With site, you skim to the bottom and read
the new info. Without site, you have to listen, listen, listen to the
entire post to hear the new information. With top posting, you read the new
information and then listen to enough to get context.

Actually, it works better for sighted people too, since there is no need to
scroll, but stubborn people refuse to learn new things and insist that
bottom posting is 'right' and 'the rules'.

Top posting by any measure is easier.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d705125a03f6470989c72@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <LLqdnbjqzMMgHpveRVn-oQ@comcast.com>, teddyz@notmail.com
> says...
>> "Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind and using a screen
>> reader and everyone bottom posts."
>>
>> Never thought about that before. Good point.
>
> Wait till you get a reply, have not been able to see the rest of the
> thread, and have to read an answer to something that makes no sense
> until you finish scroll reading to the bottom of the thread - or when
> someone didn't properly snip the post.
>
> As is reading a book, which many blind do, it's top to bottom, with the
> new content at the bottom.
>
>

Again, you clearly have no personal experience in working with blind
computer users.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Ted Zieglar wrote:

> "Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind..."

I think this is a good place to end that sentence.

😉
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Sparky Spartacus" <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote in message
news:9fDNe.6094$U63.1340@fe12.lga...
> Ted Zieglar wrote:
>
>> "Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind..."
>
> I think this is a good place to end that sentence.
>
> 😉

Actually, I believe I wrote it and was quite serious. In the past I
supported a large number of blind computer users. Think about all the
answers we have seen here. Now think about if you had to answer the
question -- but none of the reply could involve the mouse.

It's very hard.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <IzwNe.21249$Oy2.5862@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
tomtoo@softhome.net says...
[snip]
> Actually, it works better for sighted people too, since there is no need to
> scroll, but stubborn people refuse to learn new things and insist that
> bottom posting is 'right' and 'the rules'.
>
> Top posting by any measure is easier.

Tom, I appreciate your situation, but, as I read braille too, had a
teacher that was a good family friend that was blind, and work with the
elderly that have many different levels of sight, I stand by the bottom
posting.

Reading Usenet is no different than the News, than a Book, etc...

--

spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Leythos wrote:
>
> In article <IzwNe.21249$Oy2.5862@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
> tomtoo@softhome.net says...
> [snip]
> > Actually, it works better for sighted people too, since there is no need to
> > scroll, but stubborn people refuse to learn new things and insist that
> > bottom posting is 'right' and 'the rules'.
> >
> > Top posting by any measure is easier.
>
> Tom, I appreciate your situation, but, as I read braille too, had a
> teacher that was a good family friend that was blind, and work with the
> elderly that have many different levels of sight, I stand by the bottom
> posting.
>
> Reading Usenet is no different than the News, than a Book, etc...

Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
just opinion...

It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
would first need to read the question before reading the response.
Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
a non impaired reader?

Who reads from top to bottom?

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Notan wrote:
>
> Leythos wrote:
> >
> > In article <IzwNe.21249$Oy2.5862@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
> > tomtoo@softhome.net says...
> > [snip]
> > > Actually, it works better for sighted people too, since there is no need to
> > > scroll, but stubborn people refuse to learn new things and insist that
> > > bottom posting is 'right' and 'the rules'.
> > >
> > > Top posting by any measure is easier.
> >
> > Tom, I appreciate your situation, but, as I read braille too, had a
> > teacher that was a good family friend that was blind, and work with the
> > elderly that have many different levels of sight, I stand by the bottom
> > posting.
> >
> > Reading Usenet is no different than the News, than a Book, etc...
>
> Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
> just opinion...
>
> It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
> would first need to read the question before reading the response.
> Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
> a non impaired reader?
>
> Who reads from top to bottom?

That last question should have read, "Who reads from bottom to top?"

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d70f4e3b765721d989c73@news-server.columbus.rr.com...
> In article <IzwNe.21249$Oy2.5862@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
> tomtoo@softhome.net says...
> [snip]
>> Actually, it works better for sighted people too, since there is no need
>> to
>> scroll, but stubborn people refuse to learn new things and insist that
>> bottom posting is 'right' and 'the rules'.
>>
>> Top posting by any measure is easier.
>
> Tom, I appreciate your situation, but, as I read braille too, had a
> teacher that was a good family friend that was blind, and work with the
> elderly that have many different levels of sight, I stand by the bottom
> posting.
>
> Reading Usenet is no different than the News, than a Book, etc...
>
>

Which screen readers do you have experience with? I'm shocked that you
believe your statements, as they clearly do not reflect the opinions of the
blind community.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

> Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
> just opinion...
>
> It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
> would first need to read the question before reading the response.
> Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
> a non impaired reader?
>
> Who reads from top to bottom?
>
> Notan



Do you know how slow screen readers are? Reading (listening) to an average
post would take FOREVER if you had to listen to the whole thing. Top
posting let's you listen to the post, then the most recent context.

Just like it is with reading. No scrolling -- just reading.

Tom
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:
>
> > Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
> > just opinion...
> >
> > It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
> > would first need to read the question before reading the response.
> > Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
> > a non impaired reader?
> >
> > Who reads from top to bottom?
> >
> > Notan
>
> Do you know how slow screen readers are? Reading (listening) to an average
> post would take FOREVER if you had to listen to the whole thing. Top
> posting let's you listen to the post, then the most recent context.
>
> Just like it is with reading. No scrolling -- just reading.

If I'm listing to a question and answer session, and the first thing
said (the answer) is "red," with the second thing (the question) being,
"What color is blood?", isn't this confusing?

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <jtHNe.32754$Yx1.3649@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
tomtoo@softhome.net says...
>
> "Leythos" <void@nowhere.lan> wrote in message
[snip]
> > Reading Usenet is no different than the News, than a Book, etc...
>
> Which screen readers do you have experience with? I'm shocked that you
> believe your statements, as they clearly do not reflect the opinions of the
> blind community.

I don't have to reflect the "Opinions" of any community. What I say is
based on my experience with Usenet, with people of all different types,
and my understanding that not all threads are entered by all users at
the start. Many threads are entered in many places, top posting, without
all the prior following of a thread, means that the user reads an answer
BEFORE the question or relative material. In addition, many servers
expire articles at different rates, which means that at any point the
prior articles MAY not be there.

Why do we have to change usenet Norms, and reading norms, to accommodate
a very small number of users? Sure, it's harder for them, sure it
requires a lot more effort, but, Usenet was here way before screen
readers and even before Microsoft found the net.

I'm not unsympathetic, as we have "visually" impaired users, but, I'm
not about to change the world either.

How does a blind person find their way to a specific location in any
thread - or any medial where there could be any number of un-bookmarked
entry points - they read from top down.


--

spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

In article <LzHNe.32757$Yx1.9156@tornado.tampabay.rr.com>,
tomtoo@softhome.net says...
> Do you know how slow screen readers are? Reading (listening) to an average
> post would take FOREVER if you had to listen to the whole thing. Top
> posting let's you listen to the post, then the most recent context.

So, as you and I both know, you've found a weakness in screen readers.
they were not designed with Usenet in mind - just look at how the read a
web page with 12 areas of content - not designed for that either.

If a voice Usenet client were developed, because there was a real need,
it would automatically allow the user to read unquoted text first (or to
read top down if they wanted). As it is, you're asking us to change the
way that Usenet has been for more than 2 decades to accommodate
something that isn't designed to work with Usenet.

Thats like asking me to make aisles in my office 36" wide when there is
no elevator and no wheel-chair access to the second floor where we have
space.

It's not fair, but there are many things that many people can't do or
use as efficiently as perfectly-healthy people, and it's not going to
change, but it's not fair to try and change an entire structure when a
technological solution could be made to resolve their issues.


--

spam999free@rrohio.com
remove 999 in order to email me
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

"Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
news:430746CD.BAFEA3FE@ddress.com...
> Tom Scales wrote:
>>
>> > Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
>> > just opinion...
>> >
>> > It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
>> > would first need to read the question before reading the response.
>> > Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
>> > a non impaired reader?
>> >
>> > Who reads from top to bottom?
>> >
>> > Notan
>>
>> Do you know how slow screen readers are? Reading (listening) to an
>> average
>> post would take FOREVER if you had to listen to the whole thing. Top
>> posting let's you listen to the post, then the most recent context.
>>
>> Just like it is with reading. No scrolling -- just reading.
>
> If I'm listing to a question and answer session, and the first thing
> said (the answer) is "red," with the second thing (the question) being,
> "What color is blood?", isn't this confusing?
>
> Notan

You're talking in theory. Go to www.hj.com. Download the trial to JAWS and
install it.

Spend the next week with a blindfold on trying to use your computer (and
newgroups).

Then come back with your theory.
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:
>
> "Notan" <notan@ddress.com> wrote in message
> news:430746CD.BAFEA3FE@ddress.com...
> > Tom Scales wrote:
> >>
> >> > Not being blind, myself, I can't give any factual information,
> >> > just opinion...
> >> >
> >> > It would seem that someone, with any type of visual impairment,
> >> > would first need to read the question before reading the response.
> >> > Doesn't this lend itself to bottom posting, just as it would with
> >> > a non impaired reader?
> >> >
> >> > Who reads from top to bottom?
> >> >
> >> > Notan
> >>
> >> Do you know how slow screen readers are? Reading (listening) to an
> >> average
> >> post would take FOREVER if you had to listen to the whole thing. Top
> >> posting let's you listen to the post, then the most recent context.
> >>
> >> Just like it is with reading. No scrolling -- just reading.
> >
> > If I'm listing to a question and answer session, and the first thing
> > said (the answer) is "red," with the second thing (the question) being,
> > "What color is blood?", isn't this confusing?
> >
> > Notan
>
> You're talking in theory. Go to www.hj.com. Download the trial to JAWS and
> install it.
>
> Spend the next week with a blindfold on trying to use your computer (and
> newgroups).
>
> Then come back with your theory.

What's good for a physically challenged person isn't necessarily good
for a non physically callenged person, and vice versa.

Notan
 
Archived from groups: alt.sys.pc-clone.dell (More info?)

Tom Scales wrote:

> "Sparky Spartacus" <Sparky@universalexports.org> wrote in message
> news:9fDNe.6094$U63.1340@fe12.lga...
>
>>Ted Zieglar wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Try following a thread in a newsgroup if you're blind..."
>>
>>I think this is a good place to end that sentence.
>>
>>😉
>
> Actually, I believe I wrote it and was quite serious. In the past I
> supported a large number of blind computer users. Think about all the
> answers we have seen here. Now think about if you had to answer the
> question -- but none of the reply could involve the mouse.
>
> It's very hard.

I understand from your posts that you support blind users, Tom, and
didn't mean to make light of that. Sorry.
 
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