System Builder Marathon: Day Two

[cleeve]

@ Cleeve:

So, you will take a minimum system and chuck a GTX at it?

Logic behind this (besides the "cpu-limited" argument)?

Maybe $40 is better spent on the processor and then use a 8800GTS 320MB to make it a mid-range system for $XXX less than your "mid-range" system??

I can't understand how comparing a bottom-rung system with a graphics card of almost equal cost to the entire remainder of the system will help anyone but those silly enough to buy/build such a system.

And then you will hand down your usual "this doesn't work" conclusion, prompting all the Intel Fanboys to continue with renewed zeal in the forums spouting that the AMD budget solutions are indeed worthless.

You assume much, and alot of it is the opposite of my intention.

I think you'll find the 3800+/8800 GTX results QUITE IMPRESSIVE... :twisted:


P.S. "your usual "this doesn't work" conclusion"... WTF? I honestly don't think I do that. Read my articles, mate.

 

[Garmacor]

Hi,

I just run through the post regarding the two articles for pc build up.

I think that for a mid range pc the intel processor E6420 or E6320 would be fully enough, and this are with 4MB cache and not E6600 there is only 2MB

My next one is regarding the vga card, for me a mid range card is SAPPHIRE Radeon X1950 Pro 256MB GDDR3 Ultimate (580/1600 MHz)TV-Out + Dual DVI PCI-Express or SAPPHIRE Radeon X1950 XT 256MB GDDR3 ViVO (TV-In/TV-Out) + Dual DVI PCI-Express! The card what was mentioned by you is a bit expensive for us in east europe it is around 435$!!!!

And at the end please check my configuration, and let me know your opinion:

Abit AB9PRO
Intel Core 2 Duo E6420
Cooler Master Hyper TX
CORSAIR TwinX 2048Mb DDR2 800Mhz CL4 KIT
Hitachi Deskstar T7K250 250GB
SAPPHIRE Radeon X1950 XT
DVD±RW Pioneer DVR-111D
GigaByte Triton - ATX case
FSP Epsilon 600W
FDD NEC 1.44MB

Thanx!

G

 

[zenmaster]

Claiming to 'mislead' buyers is quite a strong statement.

The presented mid-range system is just one of a myriad of ways you could go. I would have gone quite differently myself. First for a lower price point since I think that is still pricey for a mid-range system or if at the same price point I would have cut a few corners to add in a media-reader, dedicated sound, etc....

However, the article should not "mislead" any posters.
If would be foolish for somebody to say I think I want a "mid-range" system and then go buy those components.

What they should do is as many people do and start a thread that says, "I have a budget of XYZ and I tend to use my computer for JKL." What would you recommend. Then partake in an intelligent discussion about crafting a computer to fit their needs.

We also need to look at some of the constraints in part selection that is obvious if analyzed by not clearly stated. The most important is that factory performance for CPUs is what was considered and not OC'd CPUs.

One of the last lines of the Day 3 article talked about wishing they were allowed to OC.

In "my build" I would get an E4300 and OC to 3.0Ghz+ and pocketed the $115.

If I was not allowed to OC, then I would not touch an E4300 with a 10ft pole and my choice likely would have been the same E6600 and gladly have paid the premium for the added power.

 

[sojrner]

Total PSU overkill.

was not aware such a thing existed... 😉

 

[nubie]

Yeh, well this goes back to his day 1 comment, now I can't think of anyone besides you who would put a $100+ power supply in a $500 computer.

Me, a few posts above you. Do some research on PC Power and Cooling, the Silencer 470 is a beast for $100, you have to double check that the fan is on because it is so "silenced". So quiet in fact that the distinct bearing noise on the Zalman 7000B is noticeable with the case on! Not that the last of the good Zalmans is very loud.

@ Cleeve:

So, you will take a minimum system and chuck a GTX at it?

Logic behind this (besides the "cpu-limited" argument)?

Maybe $40 is better spent on the processor and then use a 8800GTS 320MB to make it a mid-range system for $XXX less than your "mid-range" system??

I can't understand how comparing a bottom-rung system with a graphics card of almost equal cost to the entire remainder of the system will help anyone but those silly enough to buy/build such a system.

And then you will hand down your usual "this doesn't work" conclusion, prompting all the Intel Fanboys to continue with renewed zeal in the forums spouting that the AMD budget solutions are indeed worthless.

You assume much, and alot of it is the opposite of my intention.

I think you'll find the 3800+/8800 GTX results QUITE IMPRESSIVE... :twisted:


P.S. "your usual "this doesn't work" conclusion"... WTF? I honestly don't think I do that. Read my articles, mate.I will check, I was hoping that you would disprove the theory. Is it because of updated drivers? See 8800GTX article with the FX-60, conclusion = need more CPU, how does a 3800+ do it? (Your cunning plan worked, I am curious and will be reading your next article for sure ).

My point was just that you seemed to be doing this for fun, my approach would have involved $20-50 toward the CPU, and then a GTS 640MB, even a GTX is OK, but at least jump the processor up.

Perhaps I need to separate your personal projects from the general Toms Hardware articles. (I definitely need to separate my personal projects from the Toms Hardware articles 😀)

For sure I am smarting at all the Fanboyish Intel flack I get, especially from people who can't overclock and/or buy a suitable video card for mean price instead of $50-100 too much.

Thank you for trying, I look forward to the GTX/3800+ results.

Total PSU overkill.

was not aware such a thing existed... 😉
It doesn't, and my $100 PC Power Silencer 470 is good for all this, even according to Nvidia's stringent PSU requirements (likely worst-case scenario taking into account all the inflated PSU wattage claims):

Dual GeForce 8600 GTS, 7900 GT, 6800 GT, or 6800
Intel Core 2 Duo or AMD Athlon 64
NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI or NVIDIA nForce 570 SLI motherboard with 1GB system memory
Single HDD
Two optical drives
PCI sound card
LCD at 1600x1200 resolution [Edit: please Nvidia, tell me what this has to do with my PSU?]

For $20 more than a pretty-boy PSU you get a real man's PSU, and a real warranty. For those that think an 80mm fan can't be "silent", just try the 470, plus since it is rated for that power at 50°C it is good to go, and the single 26A rail will support any configuration it can power without "dual rail" gimmicks (does anyone else laugh at the Cooler Master 6-rail "future proof" PSU? 850watt "real power", I notice their website has no mention if it is tested for that at 50° C, I am pretty sure the PC Power 750 has it beat for $50 less, and it is Quad SLI cert too with 60A on the +12v for $200. Plus, 3-year warranty, WITH tech support.)

Last, but by no means least, AMD has 45-nm Next-Gen Quad-Core benchmarks?? This is news, and good news too! To anyone who doesn't know, Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 is free: http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/virtualpc/default.mspx

The core virtualization optimizations in the quad alone mean that you can run virtual machines at nearly the full speed of your system! (unbelievably helpful when phone troubleshooting different OSes, as you can reboot in a window and walk them through anything).

If only AM2+ is compatible with the current crop of AM2 motherboards (who am I kidding, I only care about my DFI 😛), then a real upgrade should be soon. For those that don't need, can't use or couldn't afford 4-core, I hope that the next-gen dual-core is going to drop soon. Even if Intel comes out with a competing product, at least the market is moving forward.

EDIT: for those having trouble finding a news item on Agena: http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/31977/135/

8 core "Wahoo" system? Wahoo indeed!!

 

[goldragon_70]

How's this sound: looking for a balance, pushing toward gaming
e6600 225
DS-3 130
quad 750W 200
8800gts 320 300
cooler 60
320b 80
2gb 130
dvd 30
case 45
total $ 1200

Total PSU overkill. Get the FSP 450watt from yesterday's budget build.

Now there is too little room for upgrade ability.

 

[cleeve]

See 8800GTX article with the FX-60, conclusion = need more CPU, how does a 3800+ do it? (Your cunning plan worked, I am curious and will be reading your next article for sure

I disagree with their conclusion.

Even in that article, at resolutions above 1600x1200 with 4xAA (which is why the 8800 GTX exists in the first place, hell if you're max res is 1600x1200 then why are you bothering with more than an 8800 GTS?), the CPU's influence is GREATLY minimized.

Now, that review was comparing different CPUs on the 8800 GTX.

What we've done in this article is put an 8800 GTX paired with a weak system vs. an 8800 GTS paired with a strong system.

The idea is to show that, yes, even on the slowest AM2 CPU you can find, the GTX can still be a worthwhile upgrade if you game at high res. If you game at lower res the CPU will bottleneck, but who cares if it's bottlenecked at 1280x1024 if you have an 8800 GTX?

At the resolutions that a person would buy a GTX for, the 3800+ is juuust fine. I'm not saying the GTX would be as fast as if it were paired with an e6600, but my argument is that at high resolutions it's not meaningfully bottlenecked to the point where people can automatically say "Bad buy with a low-end CPU!"

 

[sojrner]

word.

 

[alcattle]

How's this sound: looking for a balance, pushing toward gaming
e6600 225
DS-3 130
quad 750W 200
8800gts 320 300
cooler 60
320b 80
2gb 130
dvd 30
case 45
total $ 1200

Total PSU overkill. Get the FSP 450watt from yesterday's budget build.
Thanks for the input, where would you use the money you save on the PSU, not trying to go cheaper, looking for where the dollars go on a rig for balance.

 

[Shadow703793]

Question: Why are you using a MSI P965 Platinum instead of the DS3? The DS3 is cheaper and have better OC'ing.

You could have also used a better CPU cooler. Also the WD RE2 500GB is quite over priced for a midrange build with out a RAID set up. A better choice would have been WD Caviar SE16 500GB ($120) this is $30 cheaper than the WD RE2($154) and read/ write times are not much important unless doing high end video editing/gaming (games load faster, etc.). This money can be spent on the PSU.

Also note that the total price is much less due to the recent Intel price cuts.

 

[alcattle]

The y chose that board because it was best in their MB review. We know the DS3 is a great overclocker, but they did not o/c. All-Around is not something spoke around here, we tend to specialize. Not that I love their picks, but the rig is solid and does the task they were looking for.

 

[darklife41]

I criticize cheap motherboards for one reason. We're system builders.

Unlike an enthusiast who builds 1 computer for themselves once or twice a year, we build 100s of systems every year and give 2 or 3 year warranties on them. From our experience, certain manufacturers' boards are more likely to fail than others or the price spent on the boards.

We've never had an MSI board last a year, no matter how expensive the board. (Granted, we haven't built more than 30 systems with MSI boards as we learned quickly, but 100% failure rate is ridiculous.)

MSI support has been great, but we lose a lot of time/money everytime we have to replace a motherboard for a customer under warranty. Maybe some people have been lucky, or maybe they don't hold on to their systems long enough for it to matter.

But if you think saving a nickel now is worth spending a dime later on, or aren't likely to need your system for 3-5 years, by all means go for it.

 

[torque79]

fair enough. I've never owned an MSI mobo, but there are other brands who also have low-budget mobo options without choosing the CHEAPEST one on the market. thanks for sharing your experiences with MSI boards, I will avoid them in future purchases.

Knock on wood, but I've been building computers for my house since my AMD K62 300mhz processor (I was building them at work before that but could not afford them). I've never spent even $100 canadian on a motherboard, and have always purchased Asus. Not one has ever died, and my motherboards stay in use 3-5 years every time (hand me down pc to wife). I have no issue buying from other manufacturers I know to have a good reputation like Abit and others, but so far whenever I have been shopping Asus have always had affordable options for me with the right combination of features I need.

I guess my motherboards have never been OC capable, but spending an extra $200+ (canadian) on a better motherboard and better RAM to make overclocking possible would have to provide pretty convincing results for me. that extra $200 goes a long way towards a better video card, processor, or other options where I could spend it instead.

To this day, even after all the articles I have read, I am still skeptical that overclocking a processor significantly is worth it in very many situations. If I must spend an extra $200 to buy a better motherboard and RAM to support the overclock, and even an aftermarket cpu cooler as well, could'nt I just spend that difference investing in a faster stock speed processor and get the same result? You could argue the better motherboard and RAM could still net better performance in the end, but personally I think the difference would be very marginal if any at all.

Of course, if you need the features of a more expensive motherboard like ESATA or something like that, then the extra mobo cost is not a consideration then you're only looking at more expensive RAM and overclocking could be a more viable option. I DO think more people dabble into it than they need to though.

 

[zenmaster]

E6700 @ 2.66 Ghz - $320
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115002
Free Motherboard that can't OC
------------------------------------
Total Price - $320


E4300 @ 3.0 Ghz OC - $114
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115013
GigaByte-DS3 - $100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128042
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Price - $214


The E4300 will destroy the E6700 at a fraction of the price.
This is even assuming that the non-overclockable motherboard is free.


Nobody spends hundreds more on a Mobo for it's overclockability.
Maybe $20-$40.

The extra cost in the high-end boards are for additional features.
Firewire, SLI, Solid State Capacitors, Advanced Raid, etc.. etc.. etc..

If you don't want the advanced features, you can get a solid Mobo for not alot of xtra money that will OC.

 

[torque79]

good to know an OC mobo is not necessarily a lot more expensive, thanks for the correction, I was making a false assumption based on how many people I see buying $200+ motherboards, so I can just laugh at them.

Still, you have not yet accounted for more expensive RAM. I'm assuming to get that high an OC you'd have to use more expensive RAM right? There always seems to be a HUGE price gap between cheaper RAM (Kingston $80canadian/1gb DDR2 800mhz for example) and the stuff I always read about in "enthusiast" computers.

My valueram and x1950pro AGP sure do run games quite nicely for the moment. 😉

 

[darklife41]

Um.. yea.. what he said.

 

[darklife41]

Overclocking is a little more complicated than that, and less complicated at the same time. You can overclock an 805D (2.66GHz stock) to 3.4GHz or 4.0GHz and run your 533/667/800 RAM at 1/1 or stock speeds.

It all depends on the memory dividers and CPU frequency. Expensive RAM is not necessary for most overclocks on an Intel system. In fact, I've proven that expensive RAM shows little or no improvement for some overclocking applications

http://oc.ultramaxcc.com.au/

 

[zenmaster]

No, Expensive RAM is still not needed if you select the correct CPU.

Example - The E4300 and E6300 have the same base speed, but the
E4300 can overclock with much cheaper RAM due to it's higher multiplier.

The E4300 runs @ 1.8Ghz and a default bus speed of 200Mhz requiring DDR2-400
If you bump the bus to 266 you get a speed of 2.4Ghz and only need DDR2-533 RAM.
If you bump the bus to 333 and get 3.0Ghz and only require DDR2-667.

The E6300 runs @ 1.86Ghz and has a default bus speed of 266Mhz.
If you increase the bus to 400 Mhz and use DDR2-800 RAM you get a speed of 2.8Ghz which is less than the E4300 despite using far faster memory.

CPU Cooling? No need to go crazy here. Many $30 After market CPU coolers will handle the C2Duo at 3.0Ghz and be silent.


I'm a fan of "Moderate" overclocking which can now easily reach over 50% boosts for some PCs.

Its when you get into crazy OC's that things get expensive and Dicey.

A cheap CPU, Mobo, and RAM are giving me great performance at a cool and quite 3.0Ghz. I reached higher stable speeds, but I cut back to keep the system whisper quiet.

I "OC" because I'm cheap and need performance.
I have no interest in benchmarks.

At a 66% boost, my system does many things much faster and can easily time the difference just counting in my head :>>

Some folks get excited if they get 106.4 FPS instead of 105.2 and will pay handsomely to get it. Not me :>

 

[darklife41]

No, Expensive RAM is still not needed if you select the correct CPU.

Example - The E4300 and E6300 have the same base speed, but the
E4300 can overclock with much cheaper RAM due to it's higher multiplier.

The E4300 runs @ 1.8Ghz and a default bus speed of 200Mhz requiring DDR2-400
If you bump the bus to 266 you get a speed of 2.4Ghz and only need DDR2-533 RAM.
If you bump the bus to 333 and get 3.0Ghz and only require DDR2-667.

The E6300 runs @ 1.86Ghz and has a default bus speed of 266Mhz.
If you increase the bus to 400 Mhz and use DDR2-800 RAM you get a speed of 2.8Ghz which is less than the E4300 despite using far faster memory.

CPU Cooling? No need to go crazy here. Many $30 After market CPU coolers will handle the C2Duo at 3.0Ghz and be silent.


I'm a fan of "Moderate" overclocking which can now easily reach over 50% boosts for some PCs.

Its when you get into crazy OC's that things get expensive and Dicey.

A cheap CPU, Mobo, and RAM are giving me great performance at a cool and quite 3.0Ghz. I reached higher stable speeds, but I cut back to keep the system whisper quiet.

I "OC" because I'm cheap and need performance.
I have no interest in benchmarks.

At a 66% boost, my system does many things much faster and can easily time the difference just counting in my head :>>

Some folks get excited if they get 106.4 FPS instead of 105.2 and will pay handsomely to get it. Not me :>

Now I have to disagree.

Expensive RAM isn't needed either way.

When I hear the term "expensive RAM", I tend to think of name brand RAM. We get 2x1g of generic DDR2-800 today for the same price that we got 2x1g of DDR2-533 a couple months ago ($101AUD). Generic RAM with a lifetime warranty is inexpensive, easy to find now, and will overclock on a C2D just as well as name brand RAM as long as you remain at 1:1 (FSB😀RAM ratio). The price difference between DDR2-667 and DDR2-800 is about $10AUD for 2x1g. Hardly what I'd call expensive.

It looks to me like 3.4GHz is about the max for both the E6300 and E4300 on air with DDR2-800, and both require something other than the stock Intel fan. So either is a decent choice. But again I'd go with the 6320 instead of either if it were me.

Also, I'm a big believer in bench marks, as long as you're comparing apples to apples (same components other than the one being tested). The problem is that people constantly put an AMD CPU into a Nvidia chipset board and then try to compare the CPU with an Intel in a Intel chipset board. That's apples and oranges, and tends to mislead people.

 

[ivan824]

The MSI is listed as supporting 1.8V memory, whereas the RAM is listed as 2.2V. I've heard a report of this causing a problem, despite manual voltage adjustment.

I'm curious, did THG see any problems or adjust the voltage? Thanks.

 

[alcattle]

A lot of MBs have that warning. It is a Standard and is guaranteed to run at that speed. You can change the voltage and almost all RAM will run fine. Worst case is you need a stick of RAM to boot into BIOS to change the setting.

 

[zenmaster]

Reaching any speed over 2.8Ghz on a E6300 or E6320 on DDR2-800 will require Overclocking the RAM. Careful selection of the RAM should be made to ensure your RAM is overclockable. There is also no guarentee the RAM supplier will not swap the chips and your other RAM will not be as OCable as otherwise reported.

Now must RAM can be OC'd, but this is one more area of concern.
Especially for somebody who already does not like OC'ing alot.

3.4 Ghz on the E6300 will also require a much higher resulting FSB which is more likely to present issues.

Finally, 3.4 is far from something ver easily achievable on any of the mentioned chips w/o frequently needing to greatly increase the voltage, leading to more heat, leading to more expensive cooling, etc.. ec...

A few get a a lucky chip that can do this, but most reports indicate that voltages usually need to go way up when going past 3.0-3.2 Ghz.

 

[magreen]

How's this sound: looking for a balance, pushing toward gaming
e6600 225
DS-3 130
quad 750W 200
8800gts 320 300
cooler 60
320b 80
2gb 130
dvd 30
case 45
total $ 1200

Total PSU overkill. Get the FSP 450watt from yesterday's budget build.
Thanks for the input, where would you use the money you save on the PSU, not trying to go cheaper, looking for where the dollars go on a rig for balance.My 450W FSP recommendation was assuming you want to save money and didn't want a whole lot of room to upgrade graphics while overclocking.

If you want to invest that money elsewhere in your system then scale that 750W $200 PSU back to an $85 Corsair HX520 which has plenty of 12V amps for anything you want to throw at it including an 8800GTX (it could probably handle 8800GTX SLI, but anyway, you're not doing SLI with that mobo).

Are you overclocking? I assume you are with the DS3 and the cooler. So I won't recommend upgrading the CPU since the e6600 will most likely OC to whatever you'd get out of an OC'ed e6700. (btw, the Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme is the best air cooler on the market right now. Its performance puts the rest to shame, and its $60 price tag is right in your sights.)

So you can use the $115 you saved on the PSU to:
a) upgrade to an 8800GTS 640mbb) get another hard drive -- some people report dual HDDs helps with performance, even when not raided... big data/multimedia files go on a separate disk from the apps and OSc) Get some northbridge cooling! The northbridge on the DS3 runs hot when you OC that thing.d) Get a fancy case if you like aesthetically pleasing computer cases e) upgrade monitor / sell existing monitor and buy a better one f) there are better motherboards than the DS3. It's probably the best overclocking-on-a-budget board, but there's more expensive OC boards with better features such as Intel ICH8R RAID instead of the 3rd party RAID controller chip the DS3 has, or a board with SLI (a waste right now, actually, unless you have a 30" LCD), or Firewire, eSATA, etc. Some complain about stability on the DS3 and opt for a more expensive OC board from the likes of Asus... but most DS3 owners seem happy.g) Get a UPS! (if you don't already have one) Tons of people complain about lost data because of a momentary glitch in the electricity and their computer shut off while repartitioning the drive or some other nightmare. h) get another HDD to image your drive to for backup purposes! i) you didn't mention what kind of memory you're buying, but make sure it's rated for CL4 at the speed you're going to run it at
Hope that helps.

 

[alcattle]

Thank you for complete answer. I was not looking for parts so much as a ratio on where to put money on a build. Comparing all 3 builds, the ratio is almost the same with few points like the case on the low budget costing 10% of build. I am adjusting the chart as I get input so if someone want a Build and has a budget, it will be easy to say put 25% on GPU and so on.

 

[RigorVK]

I'm interested in building this or a similar system and this topic has been really helpful, but I'm wondering about sound. I scanned the whole thread but wasn't able to find anything of substance on the topic. I know next to nothing about on board versus dedicated sound cards, so can anyone enlighten me? For gaming purposes, will on board sound with this motherboard be terrible/sufferable/satisfactory/excellent? What about for watching DVD's or other high end video? Any help would be appreciated.