System Builder Marathon, Dec. 2009: System Value Compared

[lunyone]

I'm all for the $500, $1000, $1500-2000 builds!! If you stick with a resolution limit than your going to get put into a corner by either side (Intel/AMD), because $ won't be a factor necessarily in the final outcome. I think you need to stick to a budget (like most of us) and go with that in mind, which I think was the original SBM idea.

Examples below:
$500, $1000, & $1500-2000 SBM's:
* If all the SBM's are AMD systems at least show what a comparable Intel system would get you and vice versa.

* If you do both competing systems at all the price points, than you will have covered both types of builds.

* Use the same HD, DVD, RAM, Case, PSU, & OS on all of the builds (we can do that now). So use the same for the $500 builds and if you upgrade any parts from one build to the next, make sure to use the same parts in the competing build. This will help to level the playing field, whether it turns out good or bad for either competitor.

* Personally I'd rather have 2 x $500 & 2 x $1000 SBM's from both Intel and AMD. Most people are going to build a system between $400-$1200 anyways, so this would make more sense and also probably answer a few more questions for the masses. It is nice to see how a more expensive system will perform, but for the most part, it is just something that we might look up to.

* PLEASE use mobo's that have similar options. If one mobo has RAID and eSATA, than please use a similar mobo on the competing build. Try and match up similar types of mobo's when showing competing systems. You know you can run all of these systems on cheap mobo's, but the user might want to have some basic options (4-6 SATA's, 1 IDE, 6 USB's, RAID, etc.)

$500, $1000, $1500 build requirements:
AMD CPU?? and/or Intel CPU??
GPU ?? Depends on rest of budget left.
RAM, HD, DVD, Case, PSU, & OS all the same.
Mobo: Try to use similar equipped mobo's for either competitor

With trying to equalize all aspects of the competing builds (as good as you can get), one will be better educated when making their own purchases. This kind of thinking when making your purchases will allow the reader to make an informed buying decision. With controlled budget limits you will be forced to make better budget decisions. And PLEASE stick to the budget. If the budget is $500, don't go over the budget by more than 1-2%. You have been going over your original budgets for quite some time and this obviously isn't a big deal to you. Look at it this way, if you go over your budget than the difference will be covered by you (the orderer) x10. So if you go over the 1-2% of the budget than you pay the difference x10. I think this kind of thinking will force the reviewer/orderer to think long and hard about what their putting into the system.
I know that I'm ranting here a bit, but this has been bugging me for several years and these kind of things have been going on for too long.
I do appreciate the performance charts. These really show the % difference when you OC (if you decide to do this).
I know there is a lot of work put into these builds, I'm just trying to let you know where you could improve on them. Take whatever parts you like from my suggestions (if any are good) and please use them when you go to do the next set of SBM's.

 

[Onus]

I'd rather see hard budgets too. Although you do not include monitors in your budgets, you might stipulate the maximum resolution appropriate for the build. In the benchmarks, include a common resolution across all of them to show what each step up can get you (I suggest 1680x1050; certainly no higher than 1920x1080), but otherwise use resolutions appropriate for the build.
...OR, require each build to include a monitor, but add $150 to each budget. That buys a 1680x1050 monitor; buying less leaves more for the parts, and buying more will require sacrificing something.
...OR, same as above, but add 25% of each budget for the purpose of getting a monitor.

 

[pauldh]

As discussed within the $700 PC comments section, sub-$1000 is about impossible to cover well with one system. An extra $100-150 buys a ton of performance, especially in graphics and subsequent PSU requirements

Ultimately for the budget rig..... I'd like to do roughly a $750 gaming PC with dual GPU's (Ex: Athlon II X3 435 + aftermarket air cooler+ dual 5750s/5770s), but benched also as an "upgradeable" $600 PC using just one GPU and maybe just stock retail cooling. (upgradeable as in: crossfire ready mobo/ beefy enough PSU for dual or higher end graphics)

Suggestions could also be made for turning the $600 "upgradeable PC" into a $500-550 PC with less $ into the mobo and PSU.

Thoughts?

 

[maydaynomore]

I would like to see a build geared towards applications instead of games. I am done with computer gaming. In fact, I sold my gaming rig on Craigslist for $400. That was a sad day. Antec Nine hundred case, Antec 550w trupower powersupply, Gigabyte motherboard, Intel Q6600 with typhoon cooler, ATI 4870, ballistix 4gb memory, 1tb harddrive. Win 7 Pro installed (legal). Tried to sell it for $600 at first (with Samsung 21" monitor). Not a single email. Had to throw in a Microsoft 6000 wireless keyboard and mouse to sell it for $400 (minus monitor). My point is: Nobody cares about computer gaming anymore(This is my opinion and my impression. You do not have to agree with me). People are happy with their crappy consoles (I finally broke down and bought one of my own). Please do a SBM geared towards photo/video editing and everyday computing. Then compare it to these gaming rigs.

 

[Onus]

For those with no interest in games, a Dell with a fast CPU, lots of RAM, and using an Intel Graphics Media Decelerator is often the easy choice.

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]psycho sykes[/nom]This is even better!I vote fro the $500~$650 budget and the above idea..Also making polls for SBM's builds would be so good.BTW when I said on the first comments page wether or not theese sytems come with Win7 I meant in the competition.. So will the winner need to buy a copy? And I got 7 thumps-down[/citation]

A poll wouldn't have helped the $2500 PC fiasco becuase the builder was CONVINCED he would go well over 4.0 GHz on air cooling ONLY by using the newer CPU core. If not for that conviction the builder would have chosen X58, which is what the poll also would have recommended. The added expense of X58 would have been taken out of the drives, but either way there still wasn't enough room for 160GB of high-end SSD's plus mass storage.

 

[billiardicus]

Just imagine what the $1300 system could have down with a $50 aftermarket cpu cooler. Again great articles and great write ups, but not including a cpu cooler on this build is like building a super car and forgetting to add wheels.

 

[bounty]

I almost think the bugdget system should be priced such that it's targeted at 1 video card with possibly another card (SLI/crossfire) later as an upgrade. The CPU should also be upgradeable in say 1 year, so no dead end motherboard sockets. Most people I game with only use 1 video card.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

Less than 2% have dual video card systems, and yet almost every build each SBM seems to have multi-GPU with the budget systems being kinda unbalanced.

In fact, to avoid some of the recent drama, don't focus on budget, but intent. Single GPU budget system, quad/air dual-GPU value mid and 89,747$ extreme water/compressor + Quadfire with Raid 0 SSD's. Then give me the expensive one. :>

 

[grimjester]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]OK, who wants to vote that we pull the price caps off completely, have the low-end build target 1680x1050 games and "best value" application performance, the mainstream build target 1920x1200 gaming and "better" application performance, and the high end build target 2560x1600 gaming and "top" application performance?[/citation]
This. Absolutely this. Target max performance per price with fixed resolutions and without given budgets. Note that this does not mean "just go crazy" on the 2560 gamer, just max performance per price.

After reading the comments on the $700 build, I'd also lean towards limiting the cheapest build to a single GPU and making some effort to avoid end-of-life components without good upgrade paths. You can point out better-performing alternatives in the text if they clearly exist. Heck, you could even build both and compare a min/maxed build to what the average gamer would buy.

 

[bc0203]

The budget system could have used different components and had greatly different performance (application and gaming) for the same money:

1. Substitute Pentium E6500 processor (add $35)
2. Substitute 2x XFX HD-477A-YDFC Radeon HD 4770 cards (Subtract $90)
3. Substitute PC 8500 memory (add $30)
4. Substitute 500GB WD Caviar Black HDD (better performance)

I submit if you ran the above platform through your tests it'd give the $1300 platform a much better "run for it's money"

 

[blevsta]

I like seeing the high end performace machines, so we can see how much faster those pricey components really are. For me the high budget machine sets that bar.

I'd like to see the components that don't contribute to performance pulled. Specifically, blu-ray drives. Until they're $50 for a DVD-R / Bluray combo, they're overpriced. Until games start releasing on both blu-ray and DVD, blu-ray shouldn't be included. I'd rather have a $25 DVD writer than a $190 Blu-ray writer.

 

[Kreelor]

At 64 years old, I probably don't have time to read the thousands of highly technical assesments and arguments over "which one is better."

It's overwhelming and inconclusive on Tom's Hardware Guide, to say the least.

I found Tom's Hardware Guide a thousand years ago, and have always tried to keep up with current technologies. But, things have changed, including THG, itself.

Let me cut this shorter.

I'm trying my best to live on SS. It's not easy to save money. My food allotment is $2 to $3 DAILY. That'll give you an idea as to why I cannot consider purchasing/building a $3,000.00 gaming computer.

I live alone, and therefore I enjoy playing games like World of Warcraft. I'm homebound, due to medical issues, so having a "community of players" as friendly company, is a blessing for me.

That game (and others) is/are always being stretched to the limit with hardware requirements... more RAM, better video card, better cooling, and extremely fast CPU, etc.

My current (home-built) system is an antique. I put it together myself many years ago.

It functions, but I'm receiving "ERROR #132" error messages on the average of 1 per every 15 minutes. It's a "FATAL ERROR" (during World of Warcraft and nowhere else!) and it crashes my system. I've done all they suggested and nothing has solved the problem. I'm totally frustrated and confused.

Now, I want/need to buy/build a NEW computer, and I NEED EXPERT HELP in deciding what to buy.

THAT'S THE REASON I'M WRITING THIS ON TOM'S HARDWARE GUIDE!

I know very little about "best" motherboards and "best" CPU's, and "best" system RAM, etc.

Personally, I've always liked ASUS motherboards, since they have overclocking capability built-in. But, I'm not stuck on using one, if another brand is more stable.

I'm totally ignorant about CPU's!! It's confusing trying to figure out why a "dual core?" SP?? (duo-core?) rated at 2.6 is better than a "non duo-core" processor rated at 3.2MHz. Nobody explains that in plain American english on ANY web site that I've visited!

It sounds illogical to me, and nobody that I've found can tell me why 2.6 'duo-core' is better than 3.2 'non-duo-core'!

I don't know what to buy to get the BEST performance I can for the least amount of dollars spent.

I need the best (AFFORDABLE) graphics card that will work seamlessly with Windows XP Home Edition, and OS's upward from that one. It should also work seamlessly with whatever MB and CPU is decided upon.

LOTS OF CONFUSION on my part. Can you tell?

Cutting this novel down to more simple terms...

My budget cannot exceed $700.00 (maximum, with California taxes included)!

I'll need (at least) the following for a complete system:

* New hard drive 120GB minimum (fast seek rate, etc.). Note: Western Digital preferred.

* 2 to 4 GB's FAST (quality) RAM. Ideally, the RAM would be from a company that offered support for things like "timing," "voltages," etc. In other words... good online technical support!

* (AFFORDABLE) superior graphics card with 1GB RAM or else a minimum of 512MB's RAM on it. It must have ports and support for my Acer (H233H) HDMI monitor.

* Motherboard. This is the tricky part. I'm totally lost with all the back-and-forth comments I've read over the last 10 years. Nobody seems to agree on anything.

* Power supply, preferably a minimum of 600W. Debatable.

I thought Tom's Hardware Guide would always be my DEFINITIVE SOURCE of HONEST evaluation. However, it seems that so many other people have joined THG (expert or not) and have begun to expound their interpretations of "the best" hardware, that it's now impossible for users like me to find SIMPLE, TRUTHFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE FACTS!

THG has become almost like a debate forum for only experts!

What about us (common users) who truly need advice from real experts?

Here I am, just one of thousands of people, who is hoping to be guided by definitive answers toward spending my few dollars wisely. I must spend wisely now, because I won't be able to do this again.

The GD'md lawyer/politicians have drained me and America of spending power for our dollars!. They've made certain they are well-profited, while we struggle. It's not the same America I grew up in as a boy back in Indiana 60 years ago!

Now, I'm relying on someone at THG to help me buy or build an affordable computer so that I can use it to play World of Warcraft AND TO USE IT TO DO WHAT I DO BEST... computer illustration. I'm a (former) Senior Technical Illustrator by profession (retired). AutoCad 3D, Isometrics, User Manuals, Technical Writing, etc. Therefore, speed and video capabilities are important to me.

If any one of you has a heart, please consider those of us who match my life's circumstances by compelling the Web Master to ADD A NEW SECTION LINK ON THG for "BEST BANG FOR LOW-BUDGET BUCKS" ($400.00 to $900.00)! -- NOT SYSTEMS IN THE $3,000.00 TO $18,000.00 PRICE RANGE.

Thanks,
Larry

 

[lunyone]

Larry,
Here is what I'd consider for your needs under your budget.

CPU/Motherboard combo - $210 - $10 Mail in Rebate Card = $200!!!
AMD Athlon II x4 620 (2.6 gHz)

 

[lunyone]

Case/PSU combo - $90
Antec 300 case w/400w PSU
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.304791

 

[lunyone]

GPU - $155 shipped!!
SAPPHIRE 100283-2L Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102864

RAM - $93 shipped!!
G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Desktop Memory Model F3-10666CL9D-4GBRL - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231274

HD - $55 shipped!!
SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD502HJ 500GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152181

DVD burner - $30 shipped!!
LG Black 24X DVD+R 8X DVD+RW 16X DVD+R DL 24X DVD-R 6X DVD-RW 12X DVD-RAM 16X DVD-ROM 48X CD-R 32X CD-RW 48X CD-ROM SATA DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827136177

Total - $616 + S/H $16 + $60 taxes = $692!!!

 

[lunyone]

Larry,
I'm sorry but my posts didn't work out right and so the CPU/Mobo combo link didn't show up. Here it is:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboDealDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.303845
It has the AMD Athlon II x4 CPU and an Asus Mobo too

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]Kreelor[/nom]I thought Tom's Hardware Guide would always be my DEFINITIVE SOURCE of HONEST evaluation. However, it seems that so many other people have joined THG (expert or not) and have begun to expound their interpretations of "the best" hardware, that it's now impossible for users like me to find SIMPLE, TRUTHFUL, UNDERSTANDABLE FACTS!THG has become almost like a debate forum for only experts!What about us (common users) who truly need advice from real experts?[/citation]

Obviously you're not going to get an unbiased answer from MOST of the readers because they all have had their objectivity skewed by personal experience. Tom's has unbiased motherboard comparisons, unbiased CPU articles etc, but that's not going to help much in building a complete system unless you can read EVERYTHING and make some kind of map from the results.

Case in point: lunyone told you to get G.Skill Ripjaws in spite of the fact that the "Cheap" Crucial memory used in this series' EXPENSIVE system works better and cost something like $1 less. If you read the build article, you'd find a link to the REVIEW of that memory.

An easy build would be to copy the $700 machine with the exeception of graphics, since those cards are no longer available, and substitute in an HD 5770 like lunyone recommended. Or, you could go AMD. If you look back at September's System Builder Marathon you'll find a motherboard, processor, and DDR2 memory that worked very well together.

 

[lunyone]

I was just showing Larry that you can build a decent setup w/DDR3 (will be around longer and runs on stock voltage). I think Larry needs to post his requirements in the Forum where it belongs, but I posted an example here anyway. Either way, I think Larry hasn't done alot of research on systems. If he wants a simple and easy system than he could just go and buy a Dell/Hp/Gateway system and add a AMD 4670 to the build and call it a day. No worries on what to buy/build and you still have a warranty to fall back on.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]sighQ2[/nom]Shameless pro-spintel spinside lies, supported by lying "benchmarketing" tests, backed by spintel "sabotage compilers". [/citation]

Lol. Every forum needs a good joke, and you're the best one ever dude!

God bless you man.

 

[bc0203]

I was just showing Larry that you can build a decent setup w/DDR3 (will be around longer and runs on stock voltage). I think Larry needs to post his requirements in the Forum where it belongs, but I posted an example here anyway. Either way, I think Larry hasn't done alot of research on systems. If he wants a simple and easy system than he could just go and buy a Dell/Hp/Gateway system and add a AMD 4670 to the build and call it a day. No worries on what to buy/build and you still have a warranty to fall back on.

Right on point with your responses, Lunyone. I was trying to improve the "benchmark" system with my earlier post, but, as you pointed out with your post, once you know a person's needs, it's pretty easy to sculpt a system to their specific needs and budget.

One thing we all forgot to ask Larry was, did he need an OS upgrade - he might be on Windows XP, and support for that is going away over the next couple of years.

 

[Kreelor]

You people apparently have money to burn... which I don't. I'm an old fart on SS only.

I'm not interested in diatribe about $3,000.00 systems!

I merely want to know WHAT TOM'S HARDWARE GUIDE conclusively recommends as the BEST, MOST AFFORDABLE, HARDWARE items that will comprise a system for me to build a system that will play World of Warcraft (Wrath of the Lich King) without the constant FATAL ERROR #132!

Most of you people are FAR ADVANCED in engineering and hardware design. But, most of you have no ability to speak in plain english!

That's a fault that all engineers/programmers have. That's why professional Technical Writers should be employed to write manuals. Engineers/Programmers DO NOT HAVE THE MINDSET TO DO IT PROPERLY! -- It's not their field of expertise!

I want to hear from someone who speaks fluent American english who can tell me:

-- What to buy: (Brand Name/Model Number/Part Number)

-- Motherboard
-- CPU
-- Video Card
-- System RAM

The entire system cost shoud be no more than $700.00.

-- Windows XP Home Editon (OS)

 

[Crashman]

You people apparently have money to burn... which I don't. I'm an old fart on SS only.

I'm not interested in diatribe about $3,000.00 systems!

I merely want to know WHAT TOM'S HARDWARE GUIDE conclusively recommends as the BEST, MOST AFFORDABLE, HARDWARE items that will comprise a system for me to build a system that will play World of Warcraft (Wrath of the Lich King) without the constant FATAL ERROR #132!

Most of you people are FAR ADVANCED in engineering and hardware design. But, most of you have no ability to speak in plain english!

That's a fault that all engineers/programmers have. That's why professional Technical Writers should be employed to write manuals. Engineers/Programmers DO NOT HAVE THE MINDSET TO DO IT PROPERLY! -- It's not their field of expertise!

I want to hear from someone who speaks fluent American english who can tell me:

-- What to buy: (Brand Name/Model Number/Part Number)

-- Motherboard
-- CPU
-- Video Card
-- System RAM

The entire system cost shoud be no more than $700.00.

-- Windows XP Home Editon (OS)

I already told you, The easiest thing you could do is build either the $700 PC from this System Builder Marathon or the $700 PC from the September System Builder Marathon and substitute a single Radeon HD 5770 graphics card for whatever was used. Easy answer, you have two different choices of system with similar performance and one substitute video card recommendation. If you can't make up your mind from two choices, please stay out of line at fast food restaurants.

 

[Kreelor]

Obviously you're not going to get an unbiased answer from MOST of the readers because they all have had their objectivity skewed by personal experience. Tom's has unbiased motherboard comparisons, unbiased CPU articles etc, but that's not going to help much in building a complete system unless you can read EVERYTHING and make some kind of map from the results.

Case in point: lunyone told you to get G.Skill Ripjaws in spite of the fact that the "Cheap" Crucial memory used in this series' EXPENSIVE system works better and cost something like $1 less. If you read the build article, you'd find a link to the REVIEW of that memory.

An easy build would be to copy the $700 machine with the exeception of graphics, since those cards are no longer available, and substitute in an HD 5770 like lunyone recommended. Or, you could go AMD. If you look back at September's System Builder Marathon you'll find a motherboard, processor, and DDR2 memory that worked very well together.

 

[Kreelor]

This forum is not allowing me to post replies properly to those of you who have posted to me!

I can't even find my own replies to you, let alone determine if my posts go to specific individual posts! Something's wrong with the forum software!!

 

[Crashman]

This forum is not allowing me to post replies properly to those of you who have posted to me!

I can't even find my own replies to you, let alone determine if my posts go to specific individual posts! Something's wrong with the forum software!!

I'm sorry to hear that. If you tell us what browser and version you're using, I'll report the error to the proper people.