System Builder Marathon, March 2010: $750 Gaming PC

[Guest]

Great article. As for your question, most readers here are tinkerers and would love to see what you could do with $500-600. The current $750 system is overkill for most budget-minded gamers running a 22" or even a 24" LCD. It would be fun to see what is possible for even less money. I like how you're now detailing more of the overclocking settings, and this level of detail would serve us well in a cheaper system that mandated overclocking.

 

[Hothr]

It would be nice to make these a wishlist on newegg and link to it (this is sponsored by newegg, right?). That would give us an easy way to have the parts all listed together and click on each to quickly get full specs / reviews, then tweak to our personal tastes.

 

[RazberyBandit]

This is a very nice system for the money. It's unfortunate that the real performance beast within it isn't there without significant overclocking, voltage changes, and memory timing adjustments. Others who build a system using this same configuration may not get identical results, let alone similar ones. And still others would rather not fiddle with such things in fear of breaking something.

That said, I'm inclined to change a couple things...

First, the PSU. I'd prefer an Antec TP-550 or TP-650. Their semi-modular design, 80-Plus "Bronze" rating, and fully sleeved cables offer significant advantages over the EA-650 for only $5-$15 dollars additional cost. (The TP-550 is currently $89.99, but has a $20 rebate @ Newegg, making it cheaper than the EA-650, which is now $74.99.) There are models from other brands to consider which also offer the same benefits and fall within the EA-650's price range.

I also would have likely gone with a single HD5770 or HD5830 instead of two 4850's. I know they're less powerful than the duo-4850 setup, but they have features the 4800-series lacks that some users may want. The single-card setup could potentially be Crossfired later, bringing even more performance down the road, but this already Crossfired configuration has no such option. The ability to upgrade the video processing power later holds value to me, as I'm sure it does for others.

All-in-all, you built a helluva machine, and I certainly wouldn't throw it away.

 

[brisingamen]

why do the people who have never used crossfire bash it,

its flat out awsome technology.

 

[bouncergriim]

I would prefer to see a true budget system in the 500~600 range. I love to see them ekk out the most performance per dollar.

 

[pauldh]

[citation][nom]jtt283[/nom]Hmmm, I don't see temp data anywhere; that's usually presented during the OC, but I don't see it......which would contribute to cooler noise, which I'd also like to see added to these articles.[/citation]
Accuracy of motherboard sensors is always something to keep in mind, but in this case they were useless. (Reported CPU idling was a couple degrees below ambient)

Heat was not a big issue encountered with this system,and there was no problem holding the cooler block,heat-pipes, or chipset sinks after hours of running Prime 95.

The three-core OC ran prime for hours with the case fans all set back to low, and cpu fan on auto. 120mm case fans were bumped to medium and the 140mm to high during testing, but not out of necessity. Fans were kept at medium when the 4-core OC ran prime for hours.

The 4850s ran cool. Auto fan control was used and fine to max the cards BIOS limitations in CCC (700/1200). GPU temps over ambient for the OC system were 11C at idle and 53C during Furmark.

 

[awaken688]

I like the upgrade build idea too. Start with a system that is probably common. Core 2 Duo (maybe an older Pentium Dual Core) with 2GB RAM and a slightly older card like a 8600GT (Or at 4650 or whatever).

As to what assumptions to make, that is up for debate.
I would love to see the CPU cooler in the original system as stock, so when the upgrade decision comes, you have to choose either a $150 CPU plus $50 cooler vs a $200 CPU with the stock cooler and see which provides better value after overclocking.

Maybe the situation where you have to choose to add a videocard (assuming the MOBO supports Xfire/SLI) and upgrade the PSU vs. just getting a whole new video card.

You get the idea. It'd be great to see the best bang for your buck with a $300, $500, or even $750 upgrade. (I'd be okay with other numbers).

 

[cknobman]

To answer the authors question on going for a 500 - 600 build, I say:

Since your giving the rigs away when done NO dont do a cheaper build, stick with the 750 build, its more system for whoever wins it!!

 

[Onus]

Thanks Paul. This machine just keeps looking better.

 

[tfogarty]

For the next SBM I would stick with the $750 price limit. I feel that $500 would be too limiting and include less useful information to readers.

 

[sandmanwn]

Uhm, the power supply is upside down in the photos!!!

It can't breath!!! Hope this was done for photos and not a design flaw.

 

[cadder]

I like those Antec 300 cases. I usually mount the PSU upside down so the big opening for the fan is exposed inside of the case.

I've managed to get that +12V lead to go around the end of the PCI-E socket, underneath the end of the video card, then around the cpu cooler, then reach the motherboard connector.

 

[terr281]

1. I would set the price to US $650. (This would allow users to spend the required additional $100 for the typical Windows OEM license.) Thus, a total of $750 for the end user.

2. I personally like the Antec 300 case that was chosen. (To counter the user that didn't.) They are small cases that allow plenty of airflow, especially if you decide to add additional fans. (Before the release of ATI's DX11 cards, air cooled mainstream systems easily fit in the case.)

4a. For my personal systems, I am not a fan of starting the computer with Crossfire/SLI. (This eliminates the possibility of upgrading your graphics in 6 months to a year.) However, for computers I build for others (IE: Those people that never tinker with their systems), there is nothing wrong with going for the best thing possible. The answer to the Crossfire/SLI or not question is truly the market you are "selling" (building for giving) the PC for, especially since quality Crossfire capable duel PCI-E 2.0 x16 slot MBs do not typically have a much higher price premium.

4b. In this case, the $3k system has upgrade potential, the $1.5k system does not, and this system does not. This gives the $3k a system a free "value add" that the benchmarks will never show.

 

[pauldh]

I still dont understand why they went with 2 gfx cards. Ive seen in a lot of reviews that even the newest games dont always work right off the bat when using Crossfire or SLi, So why not spend the money on a 5770 for this. You get DX 11, Dual to Triple moniters, and passthrough. So say you wanted to build a budget HTPC that could game Id have went with the 5770 or 5830 not only would that be a great cpu to watch on a HDTV but you would only need the HDMI cable to run everything.

Why dual cards... current price vs. performance!

A single 5770 would have saved $40-45, had a feature/upgrade path advantages as you mention, and been nice seeing we later changed our suite to include two DX11 titles. But it would not offer close to this level of performance. Granted it wouldn't be fun if your long-awaited game pre-order arrives without/before driver support. But, really it's the rare game where crossfire scales poorly at GPU-limited settings. Have you gamed on dual cards recently? Lowering the budget enough to eliminate dual 4850s as an option, then I'd shoot for a single 5770.

Look over these charts:
http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/gaming-graphics-cards-charts-2009-high-quality-update-3/benchmarks,70.html

There a pair of 4850s slightly outdoes a single 5850 at 1920x1200 with 4xAA. I'd rather have a single 5850 for sure, but the two solutions trade blows in the benchmarks. Contrast the 5770...it's far behind. 8XXAA in FarCry 2, the 4850's tanked from the 512MB frame buffer, so the overall fps totals for all resolutions was tie with the 5850.

Use caution comparing benchmarks from multiple reviews, but this comparison is fair. Same site, same benchmark sequence, same settings, but driver versions were different.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5970,2474-8.html

Our stock clocked X3 435 + dual 4850's managed 38.7 fps in Crysis very high. Contrast that to a stock HD 5850 paired with a 4.0GHz Core i7 at 35.4 fps. The OC'ed $750 SBM even topped the the 4.0GHz i7 + 5870 in that chart! Obviously not CPU limited settings, but at least we know the CPU wasn't the problem for the 5800's. Now I'm not pushing dual 4580s as better solution than a 5850, not at all. But were also talking $190 vs $320 at current pricing!

 

[Guest]

Yes PLEASE review a budget $500-$600 system with one GPU. As one of the 10 million+ computer users that mainly play World of Warcraft I don't need 2 SLI GPU's but I would like to replace my 3 year old system for soemthing in this price range, that gets me 60fps or better in Dalaran.

 

[pauldh]

Going out of your way to mention that you had to lead the 4/8 pin CPU power cable across the video cards is a little ridiculous, considering that anyone who has put together more than one of these systems knows they can rout it under the video cards instead. And doing so probably would have provided more wriggle room for the cable as well.

And IMO, this case just wasn't a good choice. Coolermaster has comparable cases for as much as $20 less. That 20 bucks would have landed you an x4 630 procc instead, which would be a much better choice for current and future gaming, when unlocking the 4th core in an x3 is always an uncertain affair.

Yes, you'd think so, but this wasn't the case. With dual cards to route under, that option did not provide extra wiggle room and actually wasn't a solution I would be comfortable with in this system. It was still very tight, put tension on some capacitors and even an alarming possibility of fan/ power lead contact. IMO, this was by far the best/safest route for that +12V lead. Mentioning it was somewhat an apology for an otherwise fairly tidy case.

 

[ewood]

[citation][nom]tigerwraith[/nom]I still dont understand why they went with 2 gfx cards. Ive seen in a lot of reviews that even the newest games dont always work right off the bat when using Crossfire or SLi, So why not spend the money on a 5770 for this. You get DX 11, Dual to Triple moniters, and passthrough. So say you wanted to build a budget HTPC that could game Id have went with the 5770 or 5830 not only would that be a great cpu to watch on a HDTV but you would only need the HDMI cable to run everything.[/citation]
because two 4850s will kick a 5770s ass in almost every game and only cost about $50 more.

 

[hatemongeratf]

Is anyone else interested in an article on the cheapest PC that can be built but still get 60 fps at 1280x1024 on all the latest games? Now there's a question that's never been answered!

 

[teslaxero]

why do the people who have never used crossfire bash it,

its flat out awsome technology.

I don't think it is that people are bashing crossfire. It is the use of last gen graphics cards to do it. In my opinion some one who is building a budget system for themselves would prefer to use a single 57xx or a 58xx and then crossfire those when their budget allowed for it.

 

[dirtmountain]

An excellent article with a truly impressive write up by Mr. Henningsen. Including the unlocked 4th core benches and still including the 3 core benches was a great idea. Good overclocking information on an unlocked AMD CPU. Very good work.

 

[zelannii]

Not a bad build at all. I like that it's completely capable of sliding down the price scale by removing the second GPU and reducing storage. $750 is also a nice budget build price point ($500 is not a budget gaming PC, but a budget PC in general, a $500 budget gaming system is a PS3...)

Personally, I don't know if the expense on the RAM is worth it, compared to shifting that cash into other baseline components (faster or dual smaller drives, faster CPU). Throw $200 more at this build (and peripherals on top, screen, kbd, mouse, speakers, etc), and it's not far off what I'd build today for the wife.

 

[pauldh]

One question, is it mandatory or does it give more performance to use 2 crossfire bridges?

No it is not mandatory, nor should it provide a performance boost. If for this system we had to order the bridges at additional cost, it would only have one. The extra connector is there for using more than two cards. The 5970 or 4870X2 only have one connector for a second card (QuadFire) , so that should rule out a possible performance boost from using two. Using both has a bit of a coolness factor in photos and keeps the second bridge from getting lost. You'll see two used in ATI's illustrations. Personally I use both when included, and would only switch to one if diagnosing a problem. A few people have complained about flickering texture issues using both, but it's nothing I have seen.

 

[bounty]

I find myself building extremely cheap systems for people who would also like to play some games if they can. You guys don't have to struggle when building 1600$ machines.

I want to see you struggle. I want to see you stuck with 1 GPU. I want to see you dig through the cheap motherboards. I want you to 'discover' the cheap power supplies. muahahahaha A budget so low, you will be blessed to have the power supply last 1 year. I want you to debate whether to get an aftermarket cooler v.s. 3rd core v.s. 30$ better video card. And not just one of you. Maybe 375, 450 and 575. It would be fun to read about smoking power supplies when you try to OC to 4Ghz.

Another way to mix it up would be to set a target, say 30fps in crysis @ 1680x1050 with 4xaa build the cheapest system that can do that. Maybe each builder has same target or different. Maybe take that crysis target and add Handbrake under 8 min. Then finally some benchmark that also stresses storage or something.

(Then for anyone moaning about giving away cheap systems, they can build 3 each and give many systems away... or do the upgrade thing mentioned earlier.)

 

[pauldh]

Are the STALKER numbers a result of it just being a 512mb GPU? I know the powercolor is single slot, but the 1gb is just $115. Worth it in your opinion?

Honestly, haven't spent enough time with this game to give a solid answer on 512MB vs. 1GB. It's possible, and make me curious, although I think STALKER at Ultra settings with AA is just too much for dual 4850's. Reminds me of when we ran Crysis DX10 very high+ AA.

Also the DX10.1 codepath seems to be the slowest with a slight boost at DX10. DX11 runs fast though and provides a nice boost but a big hit if you enable Hardware Tessellation.

 

[indusan]

I vote price drop for the next one. Combat the slowly climbing trend over the last few months. Though August might generate better value if production for newer techs has picked up more by then.