System Builder Marathon, May '09: $600 Gaming PC

[bounty]

Nice build, thanks for actually using a small case. It might have been interesting to see you try to go wide with a II X3 710 or 7750 unlocked to 4 cores. (Anyone brave enough to OC as high as you guys suggest would be they type to to unlock the other cores.) You might have come up a littler shorter in the Single/Dual core games, but better in 3-4 core optimized games and apps. The lower OC could have been made up for with extra cores. In fact, I'd love to see this same box rebuilt with the same parts except different mobo and those 2 procs unlocked.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/multi-core-cpu,2280-10.html

 

[Onus]

[citation][nom]Mach5Motorsport[/nom]Another Epic Fail System Build. The excuses for omitting an AMD CPU is really inexcusable at this point.[/citation]
I wouldn't be quite so harsh. I want to see some AMD builds as much as anyone, but I think the reason for all-Intel is that they are unfortunately neglecting a potential audience (e.g. non-overclockers) that may be below the radar. I think it is pretty well known that, highly overclocked, Intel beats AMD across the board, by often substantial margins. THG focuses very much on the enthusiast who overclocks, and Intel will be the rational choice there; but I'd like to see THG address a larger audience, who may run at [closer to] stock. For them, AMD could well be a viable choice.

 

[Onus]

Nice alternative, DirtM. That's sort of what I was thinking.

 

[roynaldi]

Since they'll use the same OS for all systems, it makes no difference if the price for it is included or not.

I agree with you that all the SBM builds have the same OS to keep it standard, my point is, that if i wanted to go buy this system exactly, it would cost ~$600 THEN you have add $175 for Vista ultimate, or $XXX.XX for another version. bringing the total to $775ish

If someone comes to me and says, "I have a $600 budget, build me a pc" I would have about $500 for hardware after i bought then Vista home, or $425 left if I installed Ultimate.

 

[sublifer]

Left out again... a quick calculation puts it at about 113% overclocking efficiency.
(% performance of overclocked system vs stock)/(percent max. watts used of overclocked PC over max watts used of stock)

 

[sublifer]

[citation][nom]Proximon[/nom]The only nit I have to pick is that the OCZ 550W is untested and possibly an inferior PSU...[/citation]
I agree though not for the same reasons... of course the needed watts may not have been known up front but the results show you'd have been fine with a 400-500watt psu. Also, I've lost faith in modular PSU's... you take an efficiency hit using modular plus you almost always end up using all but maybe one or two of the cables because they don't design the cables with the commonly needed connections. You _always_ need at least one molex, usually for a case fan, then it depends on the rest of the system... they should include modular cables with a variety of power connections instead of the standard 2x molex or 2x sata... have a cable with 1 of each and cables with 2 of one and 1 of the other. That would be much more useful

 

[Crashman]

[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]I agree though not for the same reasons... of course the needed watts may not have been known up front but the results show you'd have been fine with a 400-500watt psu. Also, I've lost faith in modular PSU's... you take an efficiency hit using modular plus you almost always end up using all but maybe one or two of the cables because they don't design the cables with the commonly needed connections. You _always_ need at least one molex, usually for a case fan, then it depends on the rest of the system... they should include modular cables with a variety of power connections instead of the standard 2x molex or 2x sata... have a cable with 1 of each and cables with 2 of one and 1 of the other. That would be much more useful[/citation]

Actually I don't believe any of the systems "needed" a 4-pin "Molex", and look at the mess non-modular made of the $1300 PC.

 

[sublifer]

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Actually I don't believe any of the systems "needed" a 4-pin "Molex", and look at the mess non-modular made of the $1300 PC.[/citation]
Well, need is a relative term... not everyone will have an identical setup and of course you don't necessarily _have_ to plug in those case fans... I refer to the cheaper cases that have molex plug fans instead of 3pin mb connectors, and of course whether you can use all of those depends on how many fan connects you have on the mb, cheap boards will only have cpu fan plus maybe one other. So yes, its all relative but in general I've not had much success with modular psu's as it only saves me one or two cables and I still have to bundle up all the spare connectors from the cables I did use... yes, cables are messy but until they make modular cables, where you can put plugs of various lengths and types on, then I personally won't have use for a modular psu. and as mentioned, theres the efficiency issue, the cheapest 80plus modular PSU's are closer to $200, last I checked anyway. So, buy a 67% efficient modular 550 watt psu or an 80plus non-modular? I'd go 80plus every time.

 

[KT_WASP]

Here is a solid Micro-ATX AMD build for you to consider...


ASRock A790GMH/128M AM3/AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail $89.99

AMD Athlon X2 7850 Black Edition Kuma 2.8GHz Socket AM2+ 95W Dual-Core Processor Model AD785ZWCGHBOX - Retail $69.00

SAPPHIRE 100259-1GL Radeon HD 4870 1GB 256-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail $189.99

G.SKILL 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model F2-8500CL5D-4GBPK - Retail $54.99

Western Digital Caviar SE16 WD5000AAKS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - OEM $59.99

Sony Optiarc 24X DVD/CD Rewritable Drive Black SATA Model AD-7240S-0B - OEM $29.99

COOLER MASTER Elite 341 RC-341C-KKN1-GP Black Steel MicroATX Mid Tower Computer Case - Retail $39.99

Antec earthwatts EA500 500W Continuous Power ATX12V v2.0 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power ... - Retail $69.99

Total = $599.93

Within the price range and I think a good set-up... I would love to see this one put agianst Toms $600 build

 

[Onus]

Aside from the higher efficiency, one very good thing about 80+ certified PSUs is, they have presumably been tested at up to 100% load to get that certification, and they didn't flame out like Chokemax. So, even though it hasn't been properly reviewed yet, I'm willing to give the OCZ a provisional "pass," at least for now. To say I am not thrilled is not at all the same thing as saying I'm horrified.

 

[Cpt Deadboots]

I don't see why the comment "Crysis is far from playable" is made in regards to the Very High test - Crysis is playable and still pleasant at ~25 FPS, as long as you don't drop below that. An average of 35 is excellent, and would provide nothing short of buttery smooth gameplay.

Nice build. I like your choice to go with m-ATX on these ones - I've always thought that mid/full-ATX were just a bit too large... this way you're not hauling around cubic yards of hardware when moving is required.

Wish I could have worked a GTX 260 into my budget gamer... darned PSU only has one PCI-E power cable (and I'd rather not use an adapter).

 

[cadder]

I hope this gets the small case thing out of your system.

You repeatedly state how the benchmarks are limited by cpu power. It should be obvious that cpu power is important, and cooling these powerful components is important. If that takes a bigger case then it takes a bigger case, just do it. And provide a sufficient cpu cooler as well. If you wanted to use a case that precluded a proper cpu cooler, then the selection of that case was not valid to start with.

For people that want portable computers, they can buy laptops.

 

[cadder]

Now tell me that this system wouldn't outperform the E5200 SBM build.

OK, this system won't outperform the E5200 SBM build. For some reason it seems that AMD cpu's don't work well with modern versions of Windows. AMD used to have the performance edge over Intel, but doesn't anymore. When our company bought AMD systems with Win98 they were fast. When we replaced those systems with AMD systems with WinXP, they were slow.

I agree with you that all the SBM builds have the same OS to keep it standard, my point is, that if i wanted to go buy this system exactly, it would cost ~$600 THEN you have add $175 for Vista ultimate, or $XXX.XX for another version. bringing the total to $775ish

A home builder might already have an OS to use. I recently replaced my old home computer with a new one. I had an old computer that was going to be junked so I took its XP license and reused it on the new computer.

 

[Onus]

http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=90&p2=66
At stock, they trade a lot, but particularly in games, the 7850 is a little ahead of the e5200.
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=83&p2=66
Again at stock, the 720BE blows the e5200 out of the water.

 

[dirtmountain]

Thanks for the benchmarks jtt283, i should have said "Now tell me that this system wouldn't outperform the E5200 SBM build AND provide benchmarks to back it up"

 

[xthekidx]

[citation][nom]jtt283[/nom]http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=90&p2=66At stock, they trade a lot, but particularly in games, the 7850 is a little ahead of the e5200.http://www.anandtech.com/bench/default.aspx?p=83&p2=66Again at stock, the 720BE blows the e5200 out of the water.[/citation]
But stock isn't what we are looking at here, THG never had the intentions of running the CPU's at stock. They are always overclocked, and the Kuma chips aren't the greatest for overclocking, the E5200 is clearly the better choice of the two. Clock for clock, the Wolfdale core is just a faster chip, and the E5200 can reach higher speeds than the Kuma chips to begin with. The PII 720 would have been a great option, if it had fit the budget. But unless you get the SB750 on a motherboard, overclocking isn't that great for PII, and try fitting a PII 720+790GX MB in the $600 budget...I think that the E5200 was the right choice here.

 

[roorunner]

these are nice, but why isn't the cost of the OS included in all of this? Do you guys have access to free OS'es? Also, gaming mice and keyboards - where is their cost in this limit? If one is truly going to build under a set cost, then please included everything.

 

[xthekidx]

The Phenom II 720 and this MB would have been a nice option, but again the 720 raises the price of the build by $70, which is a lot when you are considering a $600-650 budget. SB710 isn't a bad oc'ing option on a budget.

 

[xthekidx]

[citation][nom]roorunner[/nom]these are nice, but why isn't the cost of the OS included in all of this? Do you guys have access to free OS'es? Also, gaming mice and keyboards - where is their cost in this limit? If one is truly going to build under a set cost, then please included everything.[/citation]
You can DL Win 7 RC for free, and most people already have mice/keyboards/monitors when they are building that they are using from a previous system. The point of the SBM articles is to look at the kind of hardware you can get for a set budget, not hardware + accessories. An OS costs roughly $100, so if you want you can factor that into the budget on your own.

 

[Onus]

Yes, these articles focus heavily on overclocking, but I think at the low end, more consideration should be given to stock performance. Overclock the pooh out of the enthusiast system at the midrange, it shouldn't matter at the high end, but at the low end let's see how they do at stock, and just think of any OC as a potential bonus to some people.

 

[dman157]

Anand has a very good comparison of a sub 600 dollar PC. Better than this in my opinion, because you see both sides of competition.

http://www.anandtech.com/guides/showdoc.aspx?i=3563&p=1

 

[dman157]

[citation][nom]dman157[/nom]Anand has a very good comparison of a sub 600 dollar PC. Better than this in my opinion, because you see both sides of competition.http://www.anandtech.com/guides/sh [...] i=3563&p=1[/citation]
Never mind that, should have read all the pages of the article before posting. I'd like to say FAIL on my part!

 

[Guest]

So how much did Silverstone pay you guys to use their cases in these reviews? There are MUCH better MATX cases out there for less and you guys blatantly ignore the best hardware for the dollar.... again.

 

[Mach5Motorsport]

[citation][nom]jtt283[/nom]I wouldn't be quite so harsh. I want to see some AMD builds as much as anyone, but I think the reason for all-Intel is that they are unfortunately neglecting a potential audience (e.g. non-overclockers) that may be below the radar. I think it is pretty well known that, highly overclocked, Intel beats AMD across the board, by often substantial margins. THG focuses very much on the enthusiast who overclocks, and Intel will be the rational choice there; but I'd like to see THG address a larger audience, who may run at [closer to] stock. For them, AMD could well be a viable choice.[/citation]
[citation][nom]jtt283[/nom]Nice alternative, DirtM. That's sort of what I was thinking.[/citation]

After how many system build projects and still no AMD CPU system?! At some point you have to call a spade a spade. NINE systems builds all Intel? It really is a joke at this point.

Others have also mentioned that THG didn't even factor in the OS price, so you really can't claim that somehow an AMD chip was exceeding the budget.

 

[Guest]

A home builder might already have an OS to use. I recently replaced my old home computer with a new one. I had an old computer that was going to be junked so I took its XP license and reused it on the new computer.

OEM licensing does not allow this to happen.