System Builder Marathon: Overclocking

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I see this review as valid. Why?

Detailed analysis of the benches might reveal info I did not know.
I read these reviews with the 1 goal in mind: *Darth Vader voice* "determine the upgrade path for the next rig"

I'm not here expecting 2 be spoon fed. Building the new rig is ALMOST as much fun as deciding what I want in anycase.
 
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]I will remember that next time I post a review...[/citation]

Wow, you're a hardware reviewer. Please let us know which site you work for so I can have a look at your perfect work. (and criticize the hell out of everything I disagree with, too). 😀
 
[citation][nom]Noya[/nom]For a site this large, that is just pathetic. So how much does the site get payed to use sub-par components?[/citation]

Are you for real? Seriously.

Let me spell it out for you: 1. We spec it out, 2. we ask the manufacturers for review samples.

Where's the conspiracy there?

 
Too many comments to read, I suspect many people have a similar opinion as me...

I know the marathon was done before the release of some really good parts so I'm not going to account for that (although knowing the good parts are coming you should have postponed the marathon... we enthusiasts do wait to see how new parts perform before ordering... really we only build at two times of the year, July and January... after new parts have been released, reviewed, and prices stabilized)

So anyways... can't argue with the intel cpu's in the builds... except maybe the model used... the mid-range should have had a q9300 or q9450, at the least kept the q6700. There is no excuse for the q6600 especially since it is not even a g0... quit pulling old parts out of your bins.
The low end build should have had an e8xxx model cpu... we know the value of the extra cache and the price difference isn't that great.

SLI on every build was a huge mistake... especially for the low end. On a budget, everyone knows that one good card is almost always better than a pair of worse cards, especially since you don't always get a gain with the 2nd card. Why you didn't use a known-great overclocking P35 board with a GTX or GTS is beyond me...

Furthermore, this is the 2nd or 3rd time that Shelton has done some horrible overclocking. Get a new reviewer to handle it, someone that knows how to do a little research in overclocking and gets positive results. What a noob.

btw, most people know that the better air-cooled fansinks are equal to or better than all but the most expensive water-cooled solutions.
 
Hi Sublifer,

First of all, I think you're misinformed about multiple videocard configurations. They aren't as bad as they were a couple years ago. No single card in the same price bracket as two 8800 GTs (or two 4850's, now that they're available) will push frames per second like these things can do. Multiple card solutions have really come into their own, and are the price/performance leaders in many cases.

Secondly, Shelton has nothing to withe the poor overclock of the Intel CPU - that was due to what looks like a BIOS problem, it's explained in the overclocking article. As far as the sub-$2000 Q6600, that was me not Shelton, and it overclocked well for an older non-G0 stepping CPU.

Thirdly, I challenge your assumption that air is automatically better than a cheap water-cooled solution. The H20-120 is pretty impressive when compared to air, from what I've seen.
 
[citation][nom]Noya[/nom]For a site this large, that is just pathetic.So how much does the site get payed to use sub-par components?[/citation]

The flaw in your argument is that you assume there were any sub-par components. There weren't. Even the MSI motherboard used in the $1000 PC was at the top of its market ($150 SLI motherboards). Unless you'd like to call it a sub-par market.

How much do you think MSI paid to have the overclocking issue on the E7200 revealed? LOL!
 
Wow, so much hate and controversy. I'm disappointed with the results of some aspects of the builds and their overclocking (as were the reviewers), but its articles like this that help us enthusiasts avoid making the same mistakes. That's also why they tried out some new things instead of just running the same components as the last marathon. What value would that give us? I give my thanks to the hard work these reviewers have done, problems like the ones here add a lot of work and frustration to a build and I'm glad that after this I'll be able to avoid these problems.
 
I do admit that multi-card has improved, but not for every game... there are cases where you get no gain and other times where you actually have a loss of performance. Midrange and high-end build I don't fault your choice for multi-card but for the bargain PC where you look for bang for buck, that $150-200 would have been much better spent elsewhere.

I know the q6600 is a good buy, but its better if you get the g0... when you got the cpu (or pulled it from stock) and realized it wasn't the g0, why didn't you get a different one? My biggest cpu disappointment was the e7200 though. As I mentioned above, the money not spent on the 2nd card would have been great to get a better processor.

As for the last thing, I did not say air was automatically better, I said the better ones can be as good if not better than all but the best water-cooled solutions. (and the H20-120 is far from the best)

Here the H20-120 wins (though they only compare it to intel stock heatsink): http://mobmls.net/MobileReports/listings.asp?ID=ISD2706277
It doesn't win by a lot, but it wins.

Here it does fine as well (but 5 air cooled solutions match or beat it): http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3097&p=6
And of course, the latest HDT type heatsinks were not included in those tests.

I'm not saying all the choices were horrible, and as other noted, seeing this does point out in some cases what not to get... I just think money could have been put to better use in the mid and low-end builds.
 
another thing. If I or we, have to spell it out to Toms people that they used obsolete and sub par components, then they should not be in this business. That IDIOT who brought up newegg. LOL if you read all the reviews there, the people at Tom's would have known that motherboard sucks. But what did they do? They got a free one, and they did 0 research on it, and they just used it. Which is a clear indication they are just making a paycheck, and don't care at all.

How freaking obvious is it? THey DONT CARE. And they don't have the courage to defend themselves because all the points I make here are right on the money.

LAAkuma
 
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]another thing. If I or we, have to spell it out to Toms people that they used obsolete and sub par components, then they should not be in this business.[/citation]

Components look fine to me... Other than changing out the videocards to 4850's (which werent available when we spec'd), it's pretty solid. We had no way of knowing the E7200 wouldn't play nice with the MSI board, but our tests add to everyone's knowledge. The P7N is a solid board.

[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]That IDIOT who brought up newegg. LOL if you read all the reviews there, the people at Tom's would have known that motherboard sucks. [/citation]

I hope you're kidding about basing a consumer choice on a newegg review.

[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]THey DONT CARE. And they don't have the courage to defend themselves because all the points I make here are right on the money.LAAkuma[/citation]

Um... you do realize it's Crashman and myself that wrote the articles. Don't you?

I think we've been defending ourselves quite diligently, Jeff...
 
[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]I do admit that multi-card has improved...

...but for the bargain PC where you look for bang for buck, that $150-200 would have been much better spent elsewhere..[/citation]

I'm going to call you on this one. Where could we have spent it better for a superior gaming result?

[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]I know the q6600 is a good buy, but its better if you get the g0... when you got the cpu (or pulled it from stock) and realized it wasn't the g0, why didn't you get a different one?[/citation]

Because we're doing real-world testing, not cherry picking every component so we have a result you can only expect to get when everything is perfect. In the real-world, everything is NOT perfect. I think the +1 GHz overclock showed what can be expected from the Q6600 in the worst case scenario, and the results were pretty damn good even though we didn't break any records. I'd rather show people worst case scanario than a best-case scenario they can only reach if they're extremely lucky.

[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]My biggest cpu disappointment was the e7200 though. As I mentioned above, the money not spent on the 2nd card would have been great to get a better processor.[/citation]

I see your point, I just disagree. We had no way of knowing the E7200 wouldn't play nice with the MSI board; if there wasn't an unforeseeable glitch, the E7200s are known to overclock very high, just as high as more expensive processors. So from a overclocking standpoint I think we're better off with a cheaper CPU that overclocks well paired with dual videocards, rather than a stronger CPU that should overclock in the same range with a single videocard.


[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]I'm not saying all the choices were horrible, and as other noted, seeing this does point out in some cases what not to get... I just think money could have been put to better use in the mid and low-end builds.[/citation]

I appreciate that, and I don't think you're opinions are without merit; I just disagree with some of them. But I do appreciate your opinion and especially the honorable way you raise your concerns, rather than trash-talking like some whiney buffoon. This is the kind of exchange of ideas that help everyone. :)
 
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]another thing. If I or we, have to spell it out to Toms people that they used obsolete and sub par components, then they should not be in this business.[/citation]

Like I said, if you'd simply admit that the ONLY MAJOR ISSUE with the components was that the article were published a few weeks late, you'd then have to admit that anything else you said doesn't matter.

[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]That IDIOT who brought up newegg. LOL if you read all the reviews there, the people at Tom's would have known that motherboard sucks.[/citation]

Go read the reviews at Newegg. The only 750i board that competes with it on price is even worse, with poor overclocking for all processors (not just the E7200) and a very high failure rate.

[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]But what did they do? They got a free one, and they did 0 research on it, and they just used it.[/citation]

Actually they got two, and both worked perfectly well with every modern processor they could find in the lab EXCEPT the E7200. I don't see you complaining that they used the same board in the $1500 system.

[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]all the points I make here are right on the money.LAAkuma[/citation]

Like I said, if you'd simply admit that the ONLY MAJOR ISSUE with the components was that the article were published a few weeks late, you'd then have to admit that anything else you said doesn't matter.
 
you wrote it? LOL

The 4850 came out half way through your cycle. You could have used it. Also, the P7N is a solid board? Yea, that's obvious! lol If you don't like what I am saying, do not make the same mistakes again, which I am sure you will not.

Please, next time, do a little research before you build the systems. The 2k system I could also pick apart and destroy as it was not even close to what you could have done for 2k. It was a half baked attempt. And so is the 4k system. Every system is not even close to what you could have done for the money performance wise. You guys are supposed to be leaders in this industry, and everything you used was just vanilla standard.

And the article was called "Sub $2000 system" Not Sub $1400 average joe system. Q6600? For real? That thing sucks! I can assure you, people paying that kind of money for a system are almost entirely gamers. Why choose a piece of crap CPU that can't overclock well for gaming, and then leave $650 left over? At LEAST pick a Wolfdale CPU such as the 3.0 GHZ one, which is actually faster than any Q6600 in any game, and CHEAPER!

Your motherboard pick was abysmal, once again, the water cooled solution was good, and the HDD was good, but the ram was garbage, you should have at least used Crucial 1066 Balistix for a 2k budget system.

And your video card choice for an under 2k system was 2 GTS? LOL Thats funny.

Without a shadow of a doubt, for under 2k you could have either 3 9800 GTX's in a system and still have money left over. Let me clue you in, even 2 9800 GTX's would obliterate your 2 GTS video cards. Shoot, 1 9800 GX2 is a worthy competitor and its 1 card.

2k system was total fail. 1k system was ridiculous fail.

4k system. Main rule in spending top dollars. Its got to beat the last build marathon build, and beat it handily. It totally failed on that front. And why use the quad processors when your catering to gamers? Wolfdale dual core 9.5x multiplier and it would have done past 4.5 GHZ and be faster than that for games by a hair, for 1/4 the money.

Then there is the whole water system. 3/8 inch fittings? Thats low end. Try 1/2 inch at LEAST for $3900 bucks, at least. And there are better water systems out there than that, that system is a mid range water setup. This is $4000 people want the best. And thats not it.

So the deal is, you ask manufacturers for items, and they give it to you free to do these builds. I think I get that. So why not ask for some high end stuff? The HDD? Samsung? For real? How about some high end raptors at least for a 4k system.

The goal of the 4k system is not "how can I just waste money for no performance gain, for the sake of just getting a 4k system"

The goal, and I am shocked I have to tell you, is what is the most performance I can get out of a 4k system, without compromise.

For gaming you could have done better. For applications, what you did, besides the HDD's is pretty high end.

Crashman is an idiot. That is apparent from his comments. The dude can't take any criticism and won;t admit he is wrong anywhere. He thinks he is above everyone.

Let me tell you one thing. The customer is always right, and you got a lot of customers on your site who are just laughing at you for such a failed attempt.

I bought a sub 1k build from Mwave last week. It was like $996 dollars. I put it together. I linked my 6 year old son to overclockers club. Told him to read this, print it out and "attempt" to overclock his system all on his own, to start training him about computers.

After 4 hours, he got it to 3.6 GHZ using the most basic of methods. And crashman, in all his godlyness can;t get that crap past 3.1?

And he is depending it as a quality component?

Crashman, if your boss had any real skills, you would be freaking FIRED.

So be happy you still have a job, you are worthless. There is no excuse.

You failed. Get another motherboard you clown. How hard is it.

Want my 6 year old boy to come over and show you how to make it faster? Its a joke.

LAAkuma
 
I guess all I can say is that we've done what we think is reasonable and we've explained it about as simply as we could.

While we appreciate constructive feedback from our readers, we don't really care about your personal opinion, Jeff. You seem to be nonconstructive and, frankly, more than a bit of a jerk.

I guess when it comes right down to it, you're just some guy who doesn't like what we wrote, having a snit and getting upset.

And I'm OK with that. 😀
 
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]Crashman, if your boss had any real skills, you would be freaking FIRED.So be happy you still have a job, you are worthless. There is no excuse.You failed. Get another motherboard[/citation]

And that's why you're not my boss, you don't have a clue. Heck, I didn't even build that system. In fact, I didn't build either one of the P7N SLI Platinum systems. But, I did pick the best $150 750i motherboard. Unfortunately, you're not smart enough to figure that out. But being stupid certainly hasn't made you meak, you think the more obnoxiously you repeat yourself, the more "right" you are.

The only problem I have with you is that you're standing in the way of a productive discussion. In other words, you're not just wasting my time, you're also hurting the other readers. Readers that would ask important questions like how they could improve these systems, now that newer parts are available. Readers who need further clarification about the superior reasons why the former parts were chosen.

But I have a solution for you: Go watch some television. If you get premium cable, you can watch a movie called "Idiocracy". Spoiler warning: For that movie scenario, you represent the majority.
 
And this is why I own my own corporation, and you work for probably $16 a hour. Because you know business, and I have no clue right?

When you get to executive level, you will understand my side of it. At your current level, you have no idea.

You get the point, so did all the people reading what I wrote. And believe it or accept it or not. Because I have railed you so harshly, you will NOT make the same mistake again.

So you can thank me for affecting your future actions, so you don't get fired.

Maybe you will get a raise for not messing up next time, $18 an hour would be nice for you I am sure.

I will leave it at that, do better next time. This time was a joke. At your level, I am not surprised its such a failure, you need college educated people with sophisticated degrees to figure out marketing and market research. You have no idea what your "market" wants to see, which is obvious.

Go read up on anandtech, learn a few things, then come back and do better.

And yes, I live in the LA area local to you. Too bad I can't be your boss, my harsh words have disqualified me from that. But if I ran the Culver City operation, you can be assured, every single thing my employees do at Tom's would be WORLD CLASS, and people all over the world would use my builds as the benchmark for their purchases.

Yours in the benchmark for what NOT to buy. LOL you still don't get that. your a moron.

I would again, suggest to your boss, whoever the hell that is, that they fire you right away. I would fire you for coming on here and insulting your customers. No matter how bad I insult you, you should not say anything negative back, you should just learn from it and move on. I would fire you for that too. You make Tom look like an idiot who hires babies.

LAAkuma
 
[citation][nom]cleeve[/nom]I'm going to call you on this one. Where could we have spent it better for a superior gaming result? [/citation]

Seeing as how hind-sight is 20/20 I'm going to say getting an E8200 and an Abit IP35 pro for better overclocks but I'm not sure it would beat SLI'd cards unless you got a 9800GTX with a non-stock cooler and put a serious overclock on it. [course I'd pick an HD4870 now though :)]

Been fun battin this around with you cleeve. [some people get a little too stirred up it seems... grin and bear it, right?]
 
Lol. Are you talking about importbuilders.com? Wow, very impressive, high roller! You make it sound like you own the next Dell, not some mail order business out of your garage.

You must be a very important man, especially since you obviously commissioned the design of your website to a toddler... 😀
 
[citation][nom]sublifer[/nom]Seeing as how hind-sight is 20/20 I'm going to say getting an E8200 and an Abit IP35 pro for better overclocks but I'm not sure it would beat SLI'd cards unless you got a 9800GTX with a non-stock cooler and put a serious overclock on it. [course I'd pick an HD4870 now though ]Been fun battin this around with you cleeve. [some people get a little too stirred up it seems... grin and bear it, right?][/citation]

Heheh, you know it dude.

I tell you what - the next SBM we're probably going to try an E8500 for the midrange build, I might test the E7200 on the same platform to see how high they both overclock.
 
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]Because I have railed you so harshly, you will NOT make the same mistake again.[/citation]

The mistake of missing a production deadline? Or the mistake of winding up in the hospital, which lead to the missed production deadline? Believe me, I'm not getting any help here. You really need to define your understanding of the mistake.

Or, are you refering to the mistake of not stabing the parts suppliers in the back by tossing out the systems once it became clear that the deadline wasn't possible to reach?

You see, we know these were good systems when they were picked out in May. We know for example that we couldn't get a better SLI motherboard for $150, unless we wanted to pick out older parts that would require a BIOS update simply to "see" a 45nm based processor. And what kind of recommendation would that be "You should buy this older motherboard and an old processor, so you can update BIOS, as well as the new one".

So far you haven't made a suggestion for a better $150 SLI motherboard, which isn't surprising since you can't. Of course, that would also require you to use prices that were current at the end of May.

You keep pretending there was some way to fix things, which there wasn't. Comitments were made, so there was no good solution. The only choice left was to publish late, which we knew would draw out winey losers like yourself.
 
Crashman: Laakuma - our forum resident business/PC expert corporate president - is some schmuck who peddles auto parts in his garage.

I think by engaging him you might be assigning him more credit than he deserves. 😀
 
Wow, not much of a response for our high-rolling know-it-all who seems to have so much to say!

If you're not Jeff Schaefer, why haven't you corrected me about calling you Jeff the last 10 posts...?

Set me straight Mr. Big shot corporate guy! Where's your multi-million dollar website? 😀
 
oh I see what you did, there are a lot of people called that on the internet. No big deal, turning it around to say I am Scott Jenkins doesn't change what happened here. And quite frankly, I didn't know who you were calling Jeff, I didn't even pay attention to that. Seemed strange to me.
 
I can't help but notice you still haven't said what company you own...

Are you going to flaunt your fantastic monetary success and then keep your fabulously successful company to yourself?

Or maybe you're just some Troll caught in a lie. 😉
 
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