System Builder Marathon: Overclocking

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cleeve

Illustrious
The review is good, actually. I'm happy with it, you're the one with the problem.

But if you don't want to go off on a tangent, maybe bringing up salary isn't the best choice, Jeff... :D

 

Hillfire

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@ Crashman: Well put.

On another note...

It's been pretty well established that these systems would be better off with 48xx cards. What I haven't seen is any recommendations on what mobo would be used. If the rest of the components when unchanged, what would you choose now to make the $1k/$2k price points?

This probably isn't the appropriate place for it, but when can we expect the next round of System Builder articles?
 

cleeve

Illustrious
Hard to say for the sub-$2k system - as far as the video cards, it depends what the price of the upcoming 4870 X2 will be, and how the rest of the graphics cards are priced at the time of specing it out.

If Radeons are still the best for the $$ we'll be using an intel board probably, if Geforces drop in price like crazy we'll probably use another SLI mobo. Hard to say without seeing the future prices.
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
[citation][nom]Hillfire[/nom]@ Crashman: Well put.On another note...It's been pretty well established that these systems would be better off with 48xx cards. What I haven't seen is any recommendations on what mobo would be used. If the rest of the components when unchanged, what would you choose now to make the $1k/$2k price points?This probably isn't the appropriate place for it, but when can we expect the next round of System Builder articles?[/citation]

For a non-Crossfire solution I'd pick the P35 Express. I haven't done any price searches on the P35 Express lately, but the motherboard comparison showed that SEVERAL brands were good. As I recall, these included Abit, Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI. As I recall, ECS and Foxconn have overclocking limitations. So, if you picked one of the first four based on price and features, you'd probably be doing yourself a favor. Gigabyte has a couple nice models for around $100.

For a Crossfire configuration, I'd pick the X38. That's going to cost you pleanty. The X48 is the same chipset, re-validated at a higher bus speed: It costs more, but you might have to pick it if you can't get a good price on an X38 motherboard.

Asus, Gigabyte, and DFI had great X38 motherboards. You can look at the round-ups to see the position of each board and compare it to the price. The same goes for the X48 boards, except that Asus changed it's X48 design before going to production so you have to look at the second article to see its true standing.
 

Pei-chen

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The problem with Tom's is that the original overclocker/enthusiasts were replaced by journalists that have little idea what they are doing.
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]The problem with Tom's is that the original overclocker/enthusiasts were replaced by journalists that have little idea what they are doing.[/citation]

Once again I'll point to the complete validity of the systems when they were built in May, and then say that these guys obviously know more about what they're doing than you would.
 

cleeve

Illustrious
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]The problem with Tom's is that the original overclocker/enthusiasts were replaced by journalists that have little idea what they are doing.[/citation]

And the problem with trolls is too much vague inflammatory BS, and not enough willingness to engage in a dialog with actual constructive criticism.
 

jtnstnt

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LAAkuma,
You know what, if you hate it that much... make 3 systems with the same money increments and make it out of parts before the GTX280/260 series and the 48xx series. Then benchmark it. And I'm taking a guess here, but they probably don't have a wide selection if all they have are preview samples. Also, some chips turn out worse than others and Tom's can't control it because they are on the receiving end. In my opinion, I don't think that many of the people that buy sub-$1000 pc's are going to overclock it.
Person1: "Dude I got my 8800gt up to 9001mhz."
Person2: "Oh mine only went up to 651mhz."
How would you feel if you were limited to a certain amount of parts. While some other people have the liberty to search all they want on newegg.com or tigerdirect.com
Can we all calm down and make a new pc for the low range with current parts because it really is the segment that is purchased the most. Over
 

Pei-chen

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[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]Once again I'll point to the complete validity of the systems when they were built in May, and then say that these guys obviously know more about what they're doing than you would.[/citation]
Do notice I didn't criticize the choice of hardware as I'm aware the specs. were decided in May. My criticism was directed at Tom's hardware "pros" that a while ago have a penchant for selecting huge PSU and not can't overclock.

Case in point, my $1,000 PC that I put together in January 2007 will beat Tom's sub-$1k PC in every category if I have two 3870 cards.


[citation][nom]cleeve[/nom]And the problem with trolls is too much vague inflammatory BS, and not enough willingness to engage in a dialog with actual constructive criticism.[/citation]
And the problem with self- righteousness is that you may be blindsided when the whole editorial team got the pink slip because the company folded.

I've being coming here daily since 2000 and the urgentness of reviewer has gone down a lot. Tom's used to compete to be the first to publish a review on a piece of hot new hardware but now you guys don't even care if you review are still missing after a week. E.g. the 4800 series and 9950 BE.
 

cleeve

Illustrious
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]
And the problem with self- righteousness is that you may be blindsided when the whole editorial team got the pink slip because the company folded.[/citation]

Wow, that puts it in perspective. It's so clear to me now. Your pink slip comment has made me fear for my employment, and because of that I see your inflammatory remark was only posted to help.

Seriously, now that you have made me afraid for my job I see how your ignorant and non-constructive comment is helpful.

Honestly, it really has!
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]Do notice I didn't criticize the choice of hardware as I'm aware the specs. were decided in May. My criticism was directed at Tom's hardware "pros" that a while ago have a penchant for selecting huge PSU and not can't overclock.[/citation]

This is a chicken or egg scenario. To get a modern SLI motherboard within budget for the $1000 PC the choices were a board with a known high number of defects, or a board that couldn't push the E7200 past FSB-1333. Of course, nobody knew the board couldn't push the E7200 pats FSB-1333 until they tried it, and nobody wanted to use a board with a high number of defects. If the 4850's had been available, the choice would have been an Intel chipset motherboard with better overclocking capabilities. Nobody really wanted to use the 750i SLI, but "some kind of SLI motherboard" was required for the graphics card configuration.

And so the choice was "Pick the best graphics configuration for the budget, and find a motherboard to match" or "Pick the best motherboard for the money, and find a graphics card to match".

Even when you don't expect everything to work out perfectly, sometimes your lowered expectations are still crushed.
 

LAAkuma

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Yeah Pei is right on, some of Tom's employees at the Culver City location freaking suck, and are dragging down the company. This is just 1 example, but as the previous guy said, they are lagging on just about everything. Anandtech has them almost every time in recent time. Its pure lazyness.

Don;t worry crashman, you will probably be fired with that other idiot you work with if you keep it up.

And go ahead and insult us some more, I am sure Tom's likes that too.

Shut your mouth, do your job, and save the trouble. Next time, its going to get even worse for you.
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]Yeah Pei is right on, some of Tom's employees at the Culver City location freaking suck, and are dragging down the company. This is just 1 example, but as the previous guy said, they are lagging on just about everything. Anandtech has them almost every time in recent time. Its pure lazyness.Don;t worry crashman, you will probably be fired with that other idiot you work with if you keep it up.And go ahead and insult us some more, I am sure Tom's likes that too.Shut your mouth, do your job, and save the trouble. Next time, its going to get even worse for you.[/citation]

Grew some big gonads when you got behind the anonimity of the internet eh? What happened to your real ones?
 

cleeve

Illustrious
[citation][nom]laakuma[/nom]Next time, its going to get even worse for you.[/citation]

Worse... what are you going to do, laakuma? Claim you're a corporate big-shot, wet yourself about how great your salary is and how you're such a professional CEO... only to fall on your own sword and accuse us of getting off track when we ask you to pony up and back your BS up with facts?

Oh... wait. You already played that card, didn't you? :D
 

LAAkuma

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lol apparently I can push your buttons pretty easy. It was a joke man, relax.

Have a happy holiday weekend.

LAAkuma
 
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laakuma

"HI crashman.What I meant was, the whole thing was a total waste of time. When a TOTAL and COMPLETE shift in graphics cards comes out about 2 weeks ago, and it was published the last 3 days, there is no excuse, whatsoever for not including it. So delay the thing 2 more days. No big deal.Total waste of time"

what's wrong with this reasoning?
I would have to say why bother buying anything new. why did i buy a p2 then p4 then core 2? I knew that in a years time there would be better everything, relative to the older? the iron axe is better than a rock one? lmao why did they make them? why not wait three days?

this is so funny? why didn't they wait three days to include the newest greatest item? Well, let me tell you why. 1.) there is the deadline, i am not going to go to the boss and say can we postpone this article so i can add new specs? thats for next issue, when they have more than one reader who smuggles the latest from where ever. this article is for those who have such technology. the casual reader, the beginner or someone other than hardcore techs.
and besides anyone who building and overclockin they already have their pride. their not gonna wait for someones published media to me how to build that overclock

these articles are really just to reaffirm their builds, the more articles you have that promotes your builds is gonna boost my ego and brag rights.

i guess this sort of point of view makes no sense whatsoever. why did i study computers in high school, why did i? because. I want to? because, i could, for that matter why in grade school did i have to sit in front of a machine that i don't even consider to be a computer and stick a "real" floppy and run an educational program.

heres thereal kicker, why put the latest vid card into the build when i know and anyone else knows that the newest motherboard or quint-core gonna come out 6-12 months later. because people don't wait for the next best thing before they decide to buy it, they want the best now.

I was being told in grade 7 that computers are the next great thing. I didn't wait until 2004 because i thought well why study this in 1984 when if i just wait three days or months or years i will learn something better.

I was there when Commodore 64 , and collecovisions "tennis" blew my mind, then atari (first console i actually did not have to go to a friends to play)

if you wait three days for on item then you have to do it for all new components and the ur caught in that cycle, cause these writers and reviewers would be waiting for ever.

I could go on for ever trying to correct that notion that eventually i would have wasted my entire life.

why am i wasting my time even commenting about your comment? why? by now you probably realize the absurdity of this obnoxious statement, and to open your comment with this attack.

why go to work today when you know in six months the union gonna get a new contract with your new hourly wage?



 
G

Guest

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why didn't i wait and read all the comments? I knew someone would have picked at that sooner or later.

just want to verify something. did your child know their effort resulted in the OC or did you have to check to see if they had OC there processor?

One more thing i just had to ask you; do you believe that if you sat around and waited for the next best thing, that you would have the next best thing available?

or rather; if everytown had a friend with comodore 64 and everyone was told the computer next year would be better, would you go out and by one? i know my parents never bought a computer until pentium 1.

you see you would not have such technology if in the beginning no one even bought the first computer? I am pretty sure we would have been 20 years behind if no one bought anything because they were waiting for the next best thing?

y would they even bother making newer better computers if no one bought them cause they knew they were getting better. thank you to the school boards and busineses who bought the junk piles in the first place. if not for that i don't believe your child would be able to do as u claim?

here are some words that if put together pretty much explains the entire process behind the computer and technological advancement: just a bunch of phrases that i no longer even feel like putting sentences or paragraphs; i'll just write down an entire essay in point form, and i am going to assume you are smart enough to make sense of it.

industrial revolution-bigger better faster?
model T then modern car now?
simple economics
simple human behaviour
more money=more research=new and improved = new product= more money

thro in some competitors, and the human need to have the best newest, and the need to outdo ur neighbour


pff
 
G

Guest

Guest
your not pushing anyones buttons, your statement created debate for 1 thing. that is essentially what created everything we have today. someone puts forth a new idea, they are told it will never fly, then it does fly and a whole big smashing bunch of peeps are writing this and that and pushing someone's button and then that 1st someone comments and then next thing u know everyones buttons have been pushed, and then this school of thought begets this school of thought. i am just basically looking for a good way to say that

we would not have anything to show for if we all waited for the new improved? you know what i'm tryin to say?

if the ford model T flopped would we really have modern society? or if the wright brothers plane crashed and killed the pilot would we have what we now have right now? i don't think u could hold down the human nature, but i do know that if such things happened in the past the world we live in would be different. if at the time of the first personal computer happened during another time like 90's 00's when it became politically correct to cut taxes and pinch pennies? would we have computers as we know it today? no. I know for a fact that if school boards were thinking about pinchin pennies there would have been no desire to fill the schools with crap boxes as they were but as this happened during 80s, well the rest is history.

as far as i am concerened , i have never had a great ability to argue any kind of point that i have had. and this is no exception you may see my point but you may have to read it a couple times. and i don't even think the original point i had made could have ever led to such a final point that i have made. in fact i am not even sure why i have kept droning on about this except that.
forget it your point is as valuable as anyone of the responses it has generated simply because you pushed buttons.
 

jakemo136

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Wow... All I have to say is good job Cleeve and Crashman for hangin in there and keepin a grin on your face in light of all the flaming that's going on. I have to admit that I probably would've ended up stooping to their level and resulted to verbal bashing of unrelated things...

SO, keep it up, Tom's! I'm one of your MANY fans who enjoyed this article for what it was worth, and always look forward to SMB, regardless of if it's super-bleeding-edge or ever so slightly outdated.

Thanks again, keep up the good work!
 

Pei-chen

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[citation][nom]cleeve[/nom]Wow, that puts it in perspective. It's so clear to me now. Your pink slip comment has made me fear for my employment, and because of that I see your inflammatory remark was only posted to help.Seriously, now that you have made me afraid for my job I see how your ignorant and non-constructive comment is helpful. Honestly, it really has! [/citation]
Suit yourself, it's your job not mine.

[citation][nom]Crashman[/nom]This is a chicken or egg scenario. To get a modern SLI motherboard within budget for the $1000 PC the choices were a board with a known high number of defects, or a board that couldn't push the E7200 past FSB-1333. Of course, nobody knew the board couldn't push the E7200 pats FSB-1333 until they tried it, and nobody wanted to use a board with a high number of defects. If the 4850's had been available, the choice would have been an Intel chipset motherboard with better overclocking capabilities. Nobody really wanted to use the 750i SLI, but "some kind of SLI motherboard" was required for the graphics card configuration.And so the choice was "Pick the best graphics configuration for the budget, and find a motherboard to match" or "Pick the best motherboard for the money, and find a graphics card to match".Even when you don't expect everything to work out perfectly, sometimes your lowered expectations are still crushed.[/citation]
Notice again that I didn't criticize Tom's choice of hardware. What I like to know is if they swapped the $2K board with the $1K board and what other steps they've taken to solve this problem. Knowing half the benchmarks involve overclocking and didn't find out your setup can't overclock until half the benchmarking is done is just sloppy work.

[citation][nom]Jakemo136[/nom]Wow... All I have to say is good job Cleeve and Crashman for hangin in there and keepin a grin on your face in light of all the flaming that's going on. I have to admit that I probably would've ended up stooping to their level and resulted to verbal bashing of unrelated things... SO, keep it up, Tom's! I'm one of your MANY fans who enjoyed this article for what it was worth, and always look forward to SMB, regardless of if it's super-bleeding-edge or ever so slightly outdated. Thanks again, keep up the good work![/citation]
I defended Tom’s vigorously years ago on MadOnion’s (new Futuremark) forum because I believed Tom’s was the best reviewer out there. The new Tom’s allowed an unfinished article to publish three weeks late because one of the authors had an accident. While they showed teamwork defending the article one has to question why they didn’t step in earlier to help finish the article.


In any case, this is the last time I will bother with this topic. If cleeve thinks he had done a great job and Dr. Tom is satisfied with the level of team work who am I to say anything.
 

Crashman

Polypheme
Former Staff
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]Suit yourself, it's your job not mine.
Notice again that I didn't criticize Tom's choice of hardware. What I like to know is if they swapped the $2K board with the $1K board and what other steps they've taken to solve this problem. [/citation]

Yes, they had the same problem with two P7N SLI motherboards and two E7200 processors. The boards overclocked other processors just fine, but the E7200 wouldn't budge past FSB-1333. They could set a higher speed, but the FSB would always revert to FSB-1333 when they went higher using the E7200, and only the E7200. Since the only viable replacements weren't really viable, they decided to stick with the configuration and explain the problem.
 

cleeve

Illustrious
[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]Suit yourself, it's your job not mine.[/citation]

Yep. But I do so appreciate your heartfelt concern for my employment.

For the record, we tried a separate E7200 on the second board and, yes, it also capped at 1333 FSB. Which is why we're pretty sure it's a BIOS issue, not a hardware issue. We let MSI know, but they said they couldn't replicate the problem on their end.

Which is really very odd, because we duplicated the problem on two different boards with two different CPUs. We didn't have any trouble getting the old Q6600 to go higher than 1333 FSB, so it's a very puzzling issue.


 

Schip

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Props to Cleeve and Crashman! Nice use of the word "obtuse" early on. I'm sorry you've had to deal with people like LAAkuma and Pei-chen. LAAkuma didn't hesitate to show us that he didn't have the intellect to carry on a truly constructive conversation, or the wisdom to properly establish his own ethos. I think the System Builder Marathons are great because they are always useful. Thanks again to Tom's Hardware and to the enthusiast community in general.

PS: We can always strive for improvement (as I'm sure we all do). :)
 
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