System Builder Marathon, Q2 2013: $650 Gaming PC

[ojas]

Interesting. Shall I pick this apart?

It's actually $760 as built, we shop one site and do not count mail-in rebates like you did. (So that's an $85 CPU + $75 cooler) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=35-103-179&Tpk=N82E16835103179

It utilized a processor that was yet to hit North America. Would need to have been A8 or A10 instead. Those were considered, briefly.

Where are you going to mount that 120mm radiator in the Elite 120? Cut out the HDD cage? Where's the HDD going then?

Next, do you really think the 750K plus a radiator is a better use of gaming funds than a far cheaper Ivy Core i3? I don't.

1) any "system builder" who shops one site when doing a budget build isn't in system building but advertising. If you don't shop around when you're spending just $650 on a machine you deserve a crappy box like the i3 you guys cobbled together. good lord what a mess. I built my computer on a $275 budget, and i got a 1080p monitor, 5.1 surround sound 500W speaker system, blue ray player, as well as a PhII x4 965be and a HD 7770 plus a glorious Antec Ninehundred Two. Overall, while yours would game a bit better, i'd take the total package i got at 40% the price.

2) how can you not count mail in rebates? I got a $30 mail in rebate from MSI for the 7770 i purchased... brought the price down from $114 to $84. If you're working on a tight budget and looking far and wide for a deal that rebate might be the difference between getting a mediocre monitor or getting a HD monitor (i got a 1080p 22" monitor thanks to that rebate ($60))

2) the Athlon II x4 750 has been available stateside for almost a month. So don't give me that crap that it's not available. It went available about a week after your last "best cpu" list.

3) good catch on the radiator, i wasn't paying close attention to the cpu cooling, and i know you can stick a 120mm rad into that case (if you take out the HD bay), however you need a 2.5" drive to have room to mount one once you take out the HD bay; you can mount a 2.5" drive on the side of the HD cage between the support and the side of the case, you definitely don't have room for a 3.5" drive... i don't think some people appreciate how cramped that case can be. I would probably stick the rad outside the case. no other place for it. That would require a bit of work, but that's about all you can do.

4) yes, i would take a water cooled 750K + 7950 over an i3 + 7870xt. Unless you're FPS watching in civ5... or a big skyrim fan the 750k should make a faster gaming machine under a solid overclock.

Is this your first SBM?

 

[RedJaron]

1) any "system builder" who shops one site when doing a budget build isn't in system building but advertising. If you don't shop around when you're spending just $650 on a machine you deserve a crappy box like the i3 you guys cobbled together. good lord what a mess. I built my computer on a $275 budget, and i got a 1080p monitor, 5.1 surround sound 500W speaker system, blue ray player, as well as a PhII x4 965be and a HD 7770 plus a glorious Antec Ninehundred Two. Overall, while yours would game a bit better, i'd take the total package i got at 40% the price.

2) how can you not count mail in rebates? I got a $30 mail in rebate from MSI for the 7770 i purchased... brought the price down from $114 to $84. If you're working on a tight budget and looking far and wide for a deal that rebate might be the difference between getting a mediocre monitor or getting a HD monitor (i got a 1080p 22" monitor thanks to that rebate ($60))

2) the Athlon II x4 750 has been available stateside for almost a month. So don't give me that crap that it's not available. It went available about a week after your last "best cpu" list.

3) good catch on the radiator, i wasn't paying close attention to the cpu cooling, and i know you can stick a 120mm rad into that case (if you take out the HD bay), however you need a 2.5" drive to have room to mount one once you take out the HD bay; you can mount a 2.5" drive on the side of the HD cage between the support and the side of the case, you definitely don't have room for a 3.5" drive... i don't think some people appreciate how cramped that case can be. I would probably stick the rad outside the case. no other place for it. That would require a bit of work, but that's about all you can do.

4) yes, i would take a water cooled 750K + 7950 over an i3 + 7870xt. Unless you're FPS watching in civ5... or a big skyrim fan the 750k should make a faster gaming machine under a solid overclock.

1) Read the SBM rules. Since these system are given away each time, this is hardly something Tom's can afford to do all the time. The whole SBM is sponsored by Newegg, so that's where the parts have to come from. It's been mentioned multiple times in past SBMs that readers can probably find slightly better deals by shopping around and are encouraged to do so.

2) Likewise, read the SBM rules. Rebates aren't allowed because the competition between the systems can't be skewed by one builder who was able to get a special deal during a 15 minute window the other two missed. These are meant to be a guide for system construction and allowing rebates and special deals would mean the pricing listed is near meaningless since those deals won't be the same by the time the articles are published. Again, this is constantly pointed out in the SBM and always encouraged for people looking to stay in their budgets.

3) Read Tom's post:

It's a shame that recent product launches have delayed these articles by a month, but there hasn't been four contiguous publishing days available since the middle of May. I was keeping my fingers crossed that these would go up before Haswell and Richland, but was a little relieved when I found out that Haswell isn't the great overclocker that everyone expected.

Notice how he said these articles have been delayed a month? Now, factoring that it would take at least two weeks to buy, ship, assemble, and benchmark these systems, that means the actual builds happened at least six weeks ago, more likely two months. That pre-dates the 750 release.

4) You've already recanted.

5) The 750 is already out of the picture due to #3, so this is likewise invalid.

 

[slomo4sho]

Interesting. Shall I pick this apart?

It's actually $760 as built, we shop one site and do not count mail-in rebates like you did. (So that's an $85 CPU + $75 cooler) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=35-103-179&Tpk=N82E16835103179

It utilized a processor that was yet to hit North America. Would need to have been A8 or A10 instead. Those were considered, briefly.

Where are you going to mount that 120mm radiator in the Elite 120? Cut out the HDD cage? Where's the HDD going then?

Next, do you really think the 750K plus a radiator is a better use of gaming funds than a far cheaper Ivy Core i3? I don't.

Fair enough. Here is a build from Newegg:

AMD Athlon X4 750K $84.99
COOLER MASTER Elite 120 $39.99
ASRock FM2A75M-ITX R2.0 $84.99
ASUS GTX660 TI-DC2O-2GD5 $279.99
Rosewill Green Series RG530-S12 530W $41.24 with coupon code "RWEM2506"
Western Digital WD Blue WD10EZEX 1TB + Rosewill RDRD-12001 bundle $61.98
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 $39.99
Subtotal: $633.17
Shipping: $13.34
Grand Total: $646.51


Also, watch the video to figure out how you would mount the HD and radiator (honestly, you guys have become increasing lax in your ability to innovate as time progresses). Lastly, the 750K has been on sale for about a month now (although it is currently out of stock)

 

[ingtar33]

I think you're making a mistake. go back to what started this conversation. A poster posted his alternate suggestion, i simply said it was a superior build, and i got jumped by a mod (author) who promptly challenged my assertion, that the posters build was better. NOT that the poster's build wasn't within the rules of the monthly system builder challenge, but that the poster's build was better.

So i responded to his challenge. I am aware of the rules of the system builder challenge. My overarching point was i thought the system builder challenge had arbitrary and nonsensical rules... worse, that those rules mean this is an ADVERTISING article, not an informative article.

 

[RedJaron]

I think you're making a mistake. go back to what started this conversation. A poster posted his alternate suggestion, i simply said it was a superior build, and i got jumped by a mod (author) who promptly challenged my assertion, that the posters build was better. NOT that the poster's build wasn't within the rules of the monthly system builder challenge, but that the poster's build was better.

I've been reading since the beginning. Answer me this: Given the alternate system was "purchased" using a very different set of rules as those that constrained Paul in his article, how can you fairly and objectively compare the two and thus declare one a winner?

 

[slomo4sho]

I've been reading since the beginning. Answer me this: Given the alternate system was "purchased" using a very different set of rules as those that constrained Paul in his article, how can you fairly and objectively compare the two and thus declare one a winner?

Take out the after market cooler and drop the ram to 4GB and the build is still within the same parameters (see my thread above).

 

[JPForums]

No, not at all. Just contrasting the shift in platform balance from CPU to GPU. i3-3220 was perfect for this high-res mini-ITX gaming PC. Wouldn't have changed that up at all at this budget.

I agree wholeheartedly. Honestly, I think the settings selected for the games (and possibly the games themselves) were ill suited to showing how much better this system is than the previous for gaming. For instance, I don't believe there is a point to showing any setting where the lowest end build has a frame rate consistently higher than 60fps. Most people won't be pairing this PC with a monitor that cost nearly the same as the system, so all frame rates consistently above 60fps are effectively equal. Ideally the lowest settings used for comparison would be one where the lowest performing system is smoothly playable, but doesn't really have any extra headroom for higher settings. After all, most people I know will dial up the settings until they can't maintain satisfactory performance. They don't tend to leave performance on the table. If all settings where the lowest performing system's frame rate is consistently above 60fps were exempted from the final comparison, the results would be more meaningful to the budget system builder. Incidentally the $650 system would look better in comparison to the old $600 build than it does here.

 

[Onus]

No, not at all. Just contrasting the shift in platform balance from CPU to GPU. i3-3220 was perfect for this high-res mini-ITX gaming PC. Wouldn't have changed that up at all at this budget.

I agree wholeheartedly. Honestly, I think the settings selected for the games (and possibly the games themselves) were ill suited to showing how much better this system is than the previous for gaming. For instance, I don't believe there is a point to showing any setting where the lowest end build has a frame rate consistently higher than 60fps. Most people won't be pairing this PC with a monitor that cost nearly the same as the system, so all frame rates consistently above 60fps are effectively equal.
Ideally the lowest settings used for comparison would be one where the lowest performing system is smoothly playable, but doesn't really have any extra headroom for higher settings. After all, most people I know will dial up the settings until they can't maintain satisfactory performance. They don't tend to leave performance on the table. If all settings where the lowest performing system's frame rate is consistently above 60fps were exempted from the final comparison, the results would be more meaningful to the budget system builder. Incidentally the $650 system would look better in comparison to the old $600 build than it does here.

I agree with this. In fact, I'm particularly eager to see how the $400 system does; whether it is "good enough" to enjoy games. I think it will be, considering that most modern games look pretty good even all the way down on "Medium" settings.

 

[ceh4702]

Can you even play a game without an optical drive?

 

[Onus]

Many games can be played without optical drives, such as anything bought through Steam or Origin. I will continue to put optical drives in my system(s) for the foreseeable future, but I understand the POV of those who believe they are no longer an absolute necessity.

 

[RedJaron]

Take out the after market cooler and drop the ram to 4GB and the build is still within the same parameters (see my thread above).

Except you're using a CPU that wasn't even available at the time this original system was built, so there is still no fair basis of comparison.

 

[JPForums]

1st thing: when gaming is priority, go Intel

2nd thing: Below $200, look at the i5s. There isn't much point to lots of GPU muscle if you're going to be held back by a CPU bottleneck.

3rd thing: The moment you hit thermally constrained spaces, Intel is the company of choice.

I agree with points 1 and 3 with the potential caveat that when gaming is a priority and your budget is small, in some circumstances, you may be able to find a better build on the AMD side of the fence.

Regarding point #2, once you exceed a minimum threshold for CPU performance, you really don't get much of a bottleneck on the CPU. In this comparison, as long as you have an sandy bridge i3, phenom II quad core, or better, you were in the same general ball park as an Ivy Bridge i5. Yes the i5 did better, but the frame rates did not drop enough in these comparisons to diminish the playability of the lower end processors. Interestingly, they used an MSI GTX680 Lightning in this comparison. It is hard for me to imagine someone dropping $550 (at the time) on graphics and then worrying about whether to spend up a little on a sub $200 processor, but they can rest assured it won't make that much of a difference until they get to the lowest end (sub $75?) processors.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-processor-frame-rate-performance,3427.html
Now if you are putting together a multiGPU system, you may want to consider a higher end processor, but even then it depends on what games you play and how high end your setup is. That said, it is even less conceivable that someone would drop $750+ on graphics cards and seriously penny pinch on the CPU.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6934/choosing-a-gaming-cpu-single-multigpu-at-1440p

Oddly enough (or not at all) this comparison also suggests that with a single card the frame rate difference between a $110 A8-5600K (or a $95 PII X4-965) and a $320 i7-3770K (Newegg) wasn't enough in any single card instance to drop the lower cost option into unplayable territory. The only significant difference was in Civilization V, but the settings were already maxed out at 1440P and the even the A8-5600K was sitting at roughly 54fps. Perhaps the difference would be more meaningful in single GPU, multi-monitor setups, but I have a sneaking suspicion the difference will shrink relatively quickly as the GPU becomes the bottleneck.

I suppose I have to conclude that, relative to gaming performance, it really doesn't make sense to worry too much about your processor until you are pushing at least $600 in graphics hardware. Just getting (or reusing) a decent one (even a couple of generations old now) will do the trick. That said, I am of the opinion that spending up a few dollars for more general purpose performance is a good idea.

 

[slomo4sho]

Except you're using a CPU that wasn't even available at the time this original system was built, so there is still no fair basis of comparison.

The 750K has been available for nearly a month now. When exactly was this system built?

 

[Crashman]

I suppose I have to conclude that, relative to gaming performance, it really doesn't make sense to worry too much about your processor until you are pushing at least $600 in graphics hardware. Just getting (or reusing) a decent one (even a couple of generations old now) will do the trick. That said, I am of the opinion that spending up a few dollars for more general purpose performance is a good idea.

Ouch.

The 750K has been available for nearly a month now. When exactly was this system built?

Ordered in April, articles finished third week of May. And then the mad rush of time-sensitive launch articles awaited.

 

[slomo4sho]

Ordered in April, articles finished third week of May.

That is definitely a long turnaround time.

By articles you mean all of the builds?

 

[RedJaron]

The 750K has been available for nearly a month now. When exactly was this system built?

Tom already replied, but I also said as much a few posts up ( my guess was the builds were at least six weeks old, more likely eight. )

 

[Onus]

JPForums made the comment about CPU strength, and I'm inclined to agree with it, once you get three or more cores (or hyperthreading). A dual-core CPU will bog down from time to time, if only because some background OS process kicks off, not to mention virus scans or other security software. I can tell in day to day operation between an i5-3570K and a Phenom II X4 970BE, but not really once I'm in a game.
Edit: I'm also not counting CPU-hogging, unoptimized beta versions.

 

[Crashman]

Ordered in April, articles finished third week of May.

That is definitely a long turnaround time. By articles you mean all of the builds?

I mean the writeups. All of the writeups had to be modified afterward because of the publishing delay. So we're talking about a 5-week turnaround followed by continuous publishing delays. And the publishing delays were caused by new launch articles taking away the original publishing days.

Nothing short of a four-week turnaround could have fixed the conflict in the publishing schedule. Normal turnaround on these is six weeks, and the only way to shorten it to four weeks would have been to take away everyone's other projects. Some of those projects were related to launch articles...sooooo...

 

[slomo4sho]

I mean the writeups. All of the writeups had to be modified afterward because of the publishing delay. So we're talking about a 5-week turnaround followed by continuous publishing delays. And the publishing delays were caused by new launch articles taking away the original publishing days.

Nothing short of a four-week turnaround could have fixed the conflict in the publishing schedule. Normal turnaround on these is six weeks, and the only way to shorten it to four weeks would have been to take away everyone's other projects. Some of those projects were related to launch articles...sooooo...

Thanks for the clarification.

Any idea when/if there will be any coverage of the AMD Athlon X4 760k Black Edition? I would love to see how the non-APU FM2 CPUs fair against the Intel lineup.

 

[Crashman]

I mean the writeups. All of the writeups had to be modified afterward because of the publishing delay. So we're talking about a 5-week turnaround followed by continuous publishing delays. And the publishing delays were caused by new launch articles taking away the original publishing days.

Nothing short of a four-week turnaround could have fixed the conflict in the publishing schedule. Normal turnaround on these is six weeks, and the only way to shorten it to four weeks would have been to take away everyone's other projects. Some of those projects were related to launch articles...sooooo...

Thanks for the clarification.

Any idea when/if there will be any coverage of the AMD Athlon X4 760k Black Edition? I would love to see how the non-APU FM2 CPUs fair against the Intel lineup.

No clue. Fearless Leader Chris normally does CPUs, Graphics Guru Don normally does APUs, and I normally do motherboards. Since this covers all three, well, multi-positional articles used to be one of my duties but I'm not sure who does that now. Have you ever talked to Chris?

 

[slomo4sho]

No clue. Fearless Leader Chris normally does CPUs, Graphics Guru Don normally does APUs, and I normally do motherboards. Since this covers all three, well, multi-positional articles used to be one of my duties but I'm not sure who does that now. Have you ever talked to Chris?

Not yet. The new Richland based APUs and Trinity CPUs seem to overclock really well based on various reviews but I have not been able to find any details on the Richland CPUs as of yet.

Since the AMD Athlon X4 760k Black Edition seems to be available in Europe but not in America, this may be ideal to push over to the German team

 

[Chris Droste]

well, Look, I think there's some room to Move or make a more capable system here. I assembled this using Partpicker even though I know a few things available at the local microcenter; for example, for an extra $10 i can upgrade the chip on this build below to a FX-4350, which would be a total $654, and be very capable right at the budget limit, but an extra $10 beyond that ($20 over the build below) you'd get an FX-6350, and an optical drive to boot. (or, toss the drive and tada! you're within the $650 budget limit!)
I threw in the Purex fan to because it moves drastically more air and is actually a little more quiet than the stock fan on the OEM Thermaltake Contac 21 Heatsink in my buildout. why did i pick this over a Coolermaster Hyper? because the CM Hyper won't fit in the case i picked.
I submit to you;

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: AMD FX-4300 3.8GHz Quad-Core Processor ($109.99 @ NCIX US)
CPU Cooler: Thermaltake CLP0600 45.4 CFM CPU Cooler ($24.98 @ Outlet PC)
Motherboard: Asus M5A78L-M LX Micro ATX AM3+ Motherboard ($49.99 @ NCIX US)
Memory: Kingston Blu 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($59.99 @ TigerDirect)
Storage: Toshiba 1TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (Purchased For $59.99)
Video Card: XFX Radeon HD 7870 GHz Edition 2GB Video Card ($207.98 @ Newegg)
Case: Antec VSK-3000 MicroATX Mid Tower Case ($29.99 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: CoolMax 500W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($34.99 @ Newegg)
Optical Drive: Samsung SH-224BB DVD/CD Writer ($16.99 @ Microcenter)
Other: Purex 92mm Fan 78CFM 29dBa ($9.99)
Total: $644.88
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-06-18 21:04 EDT-0400)

 

[Onus]

You used micro-ATX, and this cycle is all mini-ITX. You used a Chokemax PSU, and those wouldn't be used by anyone. The sponsor is Newegg, and you used other sources (a builder would do that, but this is the SBM). The mobo is an ancient-tech 760G; sorry, this build gets a FAIL.

 

[pauldh]

Interesting. Shall I pick this apart?

It's actually $760 as built, we shop one site and do not count mail-in rebates like you did. (So that's an $85 CPU + $75 cooler) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=35-103-179&Tpk=N82E16835103179

It utilized a processor that was yet to hit North America. Would need to have been A8 or A10 instead. Those were considered, briefly.

Where are you going to mount that 120mm radiator in the Elite 120? Cut out the HDD cage? Where's the HDD going then?

Next, do you really think the 750K plus a radiator is a better use of gaming funds than a far cheaper Ivy Core i3? I don't.

Fair enough. Here is a build from Newegg:

AMD Athlon X4 750K $84.99
COOLER MASTER Elite 120 $39.99
ASRock FM2A75M-ITX R2.0 $84.99
ASUS GTX660 TI-DC2O-2GD5 $279.99
Rosewill Green Series RG530-S12 530W $41.24 with coupon code "RWEM2506"
Western Digital WD Blue WD10EZEX 1TB + Rosewill RDRD-12001 bundle $61.98
G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1866 $39.99
Subtotal: $633.17
Shipping: $13.34
Grand Total: $646.51


Also, watch the video to figure out how you would mount the HD and radiator (honestly, you guys have become increasing lax in your ability to innovate as time progresses). Lastly, the 750K has been on sale for about a month now (although it is currently out of stock)

Thanks for playing by the rules with this effort. I didn't know who came up with the other one, as you must have edited yours before I saw it. I thought he had tweaked it. So I didn't appreciate our top value i3 + Tahiti LE combo being called "trash", by a vocal rule breaker who instead favored a brand and just didn't get (or rather is seems instead just chose to ignore) how an SBM works. More on that in a bit, but first...

Let me say, I am not opposed to the X4 750K, at all. It's the only real and valid gaming-oriented competition (in mini-ITX) I see for the Core i3 + discrete graphics. In fact I wanted to grab one for a SBM back 9 months ago and we even pinged AMD asking when they'd be available in (US) retail. AMD could not (and still has not) provide(d) us any word why they were MIA or when they would become available, so we waited, and waited, and waited, ..... (I checked at least once a weak, sometimes daily.)

As Thomas mentioned, our parts were ordered in April, and this story was finished before the 750K ever hit Newegg. And within 24 hours of its USA debut, I shot requests to our Editor in Chief (Chris) and AMD, trying to nab one for testing. Even now, AMD has none of these to offer, and we had to buy one ourselves from Newegg. So yes, (to answer another question you posted) you will get to see a Trinity Athlon X4 tested, because I have one and it's part of my current story. I doubt you'll see a 760K anytime soon, at least not from the US team, as those aren't available over here yet (a familiar, sour rerun, so It seems).


Here's the deal though, I think some of you are overestimating 750K's gaming abilities a bit. Even overclocked it will struggle to trade blows with Ivy Core i3. I could provide offsite links to back that up, but prefer to get ours tested first (in Apps and 8 games) Anyway, That doesn't make it bad, not at all. Both will be great for gaming. Both cheap enough to allow more funds towards graphics. Cooler expenses, and overall productivity desires may or may not tip this one way or the other in terms of top value.

FYI - We do not even include promo codes like your PSU, never mind rebates and combos. For us, it is the straight in-cart price, period. The reason being, the other deals will likely expire BEFORE these articles go live, and then folks couldn't duplicate our efforts without spending more. Even shopping Newegg alone, you'll have access to parts we couldn't (yet) buy, and prices/deals not available to us. We encourage you to take advantage of those savings, but ask you understand and respect our rules don't allow us to do the same. We would have needed to sub in A10 Trinity on stock AMD cooling, or maybe A8 with a budget air cooler. Core i3 made far more sense for this gaming PC. I'll argue that with anyone, and provide the data to back it all up.

I have not watched the video yet, (is it yours?) But having the case I suspect that 120mm radiator would require cutting out the riveted-in-place drive cage. There are better mini-ITX enclosures suited to water cooling, but kudos for getting it to work, as the 120 Elite is a nice affordable option. We would never trash a case that isn't ours to keep. So we don't plan to do much of any case mods on any SBM builds.

 

[sarinaide]

I suppose I have to conclude that, relative to gaming performance, it really doesn't make sense to worry too much about your processor until you are pushing at least $600 in graphics hardware. Just getting (or reusing) a decent one (even a couple of generations old now) will do the trick. That said, I am of the opinion that spending up a few dollars for more general purpose performance is a good idea.

Ouch.

The 750K has been available for nearly a month now. When exactly was this system built?

Ordered in April, articles finished third week of May. And then the mad rush of time-sensitive launch articles awaited.

Why on earth is Toms quoting me when the origin of source of the comment is from JPForums, Tomshardware is broken.